Can i be sacked?

[Doctor Boskonovitch]

Wise move. Afterall, let's assume you do get your job back, would you actually want to work there after this little episode?

Not so sure...

Good advice - because O/P, when the "theft" allegation is made by your ex boss, in defence of your whining I`m off to tribunial act (and it will because he is getting this same advice on a "bosses only" forum) it sort of narrows your options




.

Not sure what you mean by your psot :|.

 

[Atilla]

Not so sure...




Not sure what you mean by your psot :|.

What he's saying is:
You have sought advice so fully expect your ex boss to have done so too (on a forum frequented by bosses - yes, they do exist, down the pub etc).
But remember, a decision has already been made on you. Your boss holds most of the cards,so to speak and he'll have built up a case history (list of reasons that fit his argument) that will make you look like Dick Turpin. And that is not something you want on your C.V./history.

Follow the advice given but don't forget to plan ahead for a future elsewhere.

 

[craiga1971]

I am the old breed , when Britain was Great and thats the way we do it..Sorry if it doesnt meet with the new wipe the employees bottoms and make sure you keep them warm and snug all day modern way , but tough ..I will never go to a tribunal and i would never on principle either .. I would sooner close a Company than be dictated to .. I did not elect to be my own Boss so as i can let others tell me what or how to do things ..I did not go into Business to gain any awards for employing people , my experience is employees just do as little as they can .. And the moment they want out they go..So i abide the same rules I much prefer the way i work which ensures my vans do NOT go on any friends repairs or cash jobs on the side etc etc..Any employer who lets the employer take the pee out of them ,by doing side jobs etc , should be shot in my opinion

You take the same attitude with, for example, HMRC? Thought not.

You are a dinasour and a bully. If you have crap employees it is because you see them as crap and they have nothing to streve for because all you expect of them is crap. It is a self-fulling prophecy.

You do understnad that the people who work for you are just people? With hopes, aspirations, dreams, challenges, problems, etc.. Work WITH them and not against them and it will be a WIN-WIN for both sides.

I pity you.

Craig

 

[PERCY67]

Sorry Craig, got to take issue with you their mate.

I tried with all my staff, I employed over 70 in 7 years, and I'll tell you I never understood why employers have to be hard and disciplined.

I thought I could reinvent the wheel.

Off sick-No problem come back when your ready, full pay.
Carn't Get A Hospital Appoinment-No problem call BUPA and get your self seen too, I'll pay the bill.
No car-Take a van, fuel card is in it. Then fill it with petrol twice, diesel van its alright I'll sort.
Tools-anything you need just put it on the account. The leave them where you like
Uniform, I buy five for each day of the week.
Xmas bonus-£150 cash in hand-I paid the tax.
Training-Wrote books on it, cheque books. Thousands.
PPE- Never do a job without it.



Hope and aspirations I had them all, but I failed my staff, they wanted more, stealing from me, surfing for a new job, paying bills shopping on line in all my time. Sleeping in the van or on the job You name it they did it.

So now when I start again I'll take the line of BIG PETE, and sorry to the original O/P I would have sacked you, jobs are always for a friend, who lives 1/2 mile down the road, why didn't you walk, or check with the boss first.


I'd move on and learn from it, and get my own wheels.

As for re-inventing the wheel, it carn't be done.

 

[craiga1971]

Sorry Craig, got to take issue with you their mate.

I tried with all my staff, I employed over 70 in 7 years, and I'll tell you I never understood why employers have to be hard and disciplined.

I thought I could reinvent the wheel.

Off sick-No problem come back when your ready, full pay.
Carn't Get A Hospital Appoinment-No problem call BUPA and get your self seen too, I'll pay the bill.
No car-Take a van, fuel card is in it. Then fill it with petrol twice, diesel van its alright I'll sort.
Tools-anything you need just put it on the account. The leave them where you like
Uniform, I buy five for each day of the week.
Xmas bonus-£150 cash in hand-I paid the tax.
Training-Wrote books on it, cheque books. Thousands.
PPE- Never do a job without it.



Hope and aspirations I had them all, but I failed my staff, they wanted more, stealing from me, surfing for a new job, paying bills shopping on line in all my time. Sleeping in the van or on the job You name it they did it.

So now when I start again I'll take the line of BIG PETE, and sorry to the original O/P I would have sacked you, jobs are always for a friend, who lives 1/2 mile down the road, why didn't you walk, or check with the boss first.


I'd move on and learn from it, and get my own wheels.

As for re-inventing the wheel, it carn't be done.

Before recuiting, did you set out clearly your expectations of employees?
Did you robustly vet your potential employees?
Did your employment contacts and Employer Handbook state what was acceptable and what was not?
Did you conduct a back to work interview after sickness?

May I ask what line of work were/are you in that seems to be mobile (i.e. reference to cars/vans) yet you speak of giving employee benefits like BUPA.

How did you track the amount of work employee had done, pending and planned? How did they have time to sleep?

Some people are motivated solely by money. Therefore a decent bonus structure whereby people are rewarded for quality, acccurate work may have been what was lacking.

If I had a good employee who made a minor mistake I would mentor them in order to ensure that we negated, as far as is possible, the chance of similar mistakes.

But at the end of the day, the OP had done similar things before and the Boss had not suggested it was a problem.

I joined a Board of Governors during a battle with a former employee at an Employment Tribunal. It was a no-hoper case for the employee but the amount of effort and staff time it took up was absolutely amazing. And the staff still had to teach our children!

I would hate to imagine the effort required to defend a legitimate case which I believe this one is - It must run to hundreds of hours and thousands of pounds.

If, for example, a mobile tyre fitter is hitting targets (thus making the boss money!), works to a high standard, etc.. then is it truly the end of the world if he spends 4 hours on a weekend helping his mate with his car. Maybe using company assets to the tune of a couple of quid.

I have never heard of anything so pathetic. Talk about cutting your nose off to spite your face.

It is swings and roundabouts. Impose draconian conditions on your employees and they'll become clock watchers and when the 5hit really hits the fan and all hands on deck are needed, you'll see them chuckle as they leave for the day because they are fulfilling the terms of their employment contract, nothing more nothing less.

I'm off to watch Scrooge just to remind myself it really is 2010.

Craig

 

[Cobby]

So now when I start again I'll take the line of BIG PETE, and sorry to the original O/P I would have sacked you, jobs are always for a friend, who lives 1/2 mile down the road, why didn't you walk, or check with the boss first.

The irony of the situation is, that without so many cowboy employers like you and 'Big' Pete, the 'draconian' employee regulations we have would probably never have arisen.

I've employed twenty or so over the past 4 or 5 years. I'm generous, flexible and lenient. Only a couple of them ever caused any trouble and that was because as it turns out they used to be cowboy employers themselves. I'm not sure what lesson to take from that. :/

 

[Doctor Boskonovitch]

Tools-anything you need just put it on the account. The leave them where you like.

This is a classic one. Same applied to the company I worked for. My former employer allowed employees to replace any lost tools and all went on the company's account. In my opinion it's wrong and there is an easy way around it. Give all the required tools to your employee and specify in Terms & Conditions that if tools break down or get worn then you will replace them but if any tools are lost then employee will have to pay for replacement.

This idea was brought up on several occasions with my ex employer but it never was put into practice so I have no sympathy to employers like him or you for not being able to manage your company properly and then crying that you are getting abused.

I really can't recall anything I have lost for good over nearly 2 years I worked for my ex employer, I had cases where I have left something behind (by the way it's easy done) but I always managed to recover my tools. In fact there were cases where I was going out to do a job and realised that I don't have some appropriate tools and I went out and bought them for my own money.

Also, I can give you my ex employers number and you call him and ask how many times he lost tools out of van I was using that were quite critical for my job.

Plus I won't even start on quality of tools….


I could also give you my opinion on few other points you have listed but i think this post will be long as it is.



The above is really irrelevant to my dismissal but I just felt like letting some steam off.

and sorry to the original O/P I would have sacked you, jobs are always for a friend, who lives 1/2 mile down the road, why didn't you walk, or check with the boss first.

Yes, it was silly decision which could've been avoided and I admitted it and made a statement with all relevant facts to my employer. He had all the information needed to check that facts were correct (but he didn't) and it was a person I knew and it was ½ mile down the road.




Also to respond to you in general I have to say that I really don't believe that I was that bad employee and deserved such a severe punishment. OK, I did wrong, made a stupid decision. I can understand my employer as I didn't ask his permission to use company's van and equipment and the job I did potentially could've gone through company's books and brought in some money so yes, he had every right to be upset but then again you not goanna make all the money in the world.

Also when I went to the disciplinary meeting I was basically shot down in flames. It was all about how bad I was by doing that job. OK, I admitted it but how about other things?

Like my attendance? In all time I worked for my employer I was off sick only 1 day and was never late to work. In the same time another employee has been off sick on several occasions and he's pretty much late to work at least 1 day every week. And did he ever had any disciplinary actions taken against him, no!

As it was mentioned before, what about the fact that I used my own phone and call time for 1 year and 9 months for company's calls? How much is the business mobile phone contract? I suspect at lest £20 a month so that's I saved my employer at least £420 over period of my employment.

What about the fact that I did a round trip of over 350 miles with my own car to go to training course and never asked for any wear & tear compensation. The same time I had to stay in hotel which cost my employer only £20 because my partner had stuff discount. Didn't I save my employer some money there?

And what about all that overtime I did and never got paid because I was generous and didn't mind to do a bit of extra time occasionally. Well, the agreement was that if I do any overtime I will get time off accordingly but over the time it worked out that I did more than got back, still I didn't object.

Basically as I mentioned before my employer got sensitive and I feel that rather than making a structured judgment based on all facts he acted prematurely and his judgment was based on his feelings.



Either way, bwglaw got back to me and looks like the merits of an unfair dismissal claim would be week. Also after asking my self a question over and over again about whether I would like to return there I have to admit that answer is, no! So despite the fact that I still could try to appeal I won't.


Thanks to all who tried to help and support me here!

 

[MikeJ]

Doc, don't let the idiots get you down.

Follow the advice that's been given, speak to the CAB and get an appeal in place.

 

[Doctor Boskonovitch]

1 more thing…

I can see that that term "cowboy employer" has been used in this thread on several occasions so here is some information about my former employer:

Case 1.
AV receiver was sold and installed in customer's house. Customer paid full price for the receiver and it was sold as brand new where in fact it was:
a)2nd hand;
b)Not complete i.e. the Original remote control missing;
c)Faulty, as HDMI output wasn't working.

My ex employers policy was:
a)customer won't know it's 2nd hand because we are installing it and we will put it in while customer is not around;
b)customer is getting a Universal remote so the fact that Original remote is missing is not important;
c)as customer won't be using any HD source so HDMI output won't be used so he won't know it's faulty.


Case 2.
Employer sold a TV to a pensioner. Engineer went to install TV and after setting it up he realised that screen has dead pixel (which is, in most cases, very annoying and can be claimed as fault). Engineer calls employer to advice about his discovery. The conversation follows:

Employee: Hi, ermm… that TV I'm installing for Mrs. Sample has dead pixel.
Boss: Did you say anything to customer.
Employee: No, I just wanted to confirm what I should do.
Boss: Good, that dead pixel is the reason why she is getting that TV a bit cheaper.
Employee: So customer doesn't know that there is a dead pixel?
Boss: No, but she is old and her vision is not that great anymore so most likely she won't notice anyway.

I'm sure you get a picture of what happened there.


The above is just a few to mention from many other similar cases.


EDIT: Really wanted to get this off my chest!

 

[Doctor Boskonovitch]

Doc, don't let the idiots get you down.

Follow the advice that's been given, speak to the CAB and get an appeal in place.

Thanks for your support but after studying my case i really doubt i could get it down to Unfair Dismissal as some facts will be argued over and over so my best shot would be appeal. If i succeed and get taken back it really would, as Atilla mentioned it earlier, like sword of Damocles hanging over me.


EDIT: Said that i still have a time so i might change my mind.

 

[saxondale]

But at the end of the day, the OP had done similar things before and the Boss had not suggested it was a problem.



Craig

which part of "I did something and gave the money to the boss" (ie my job)

and

"I did a job (the same job) and kept the money for myself" could you possibly get confused over



O/P wants to stop trying to pull the wool over everyones eyes.

 

[MikeJ]

Thanks for your support but after studying my case i really doubt i could get it down to Unfair Dismissal as some facts will be argued over and over so my best shot would be appeal. If i succeed and get taken back it really would, as Atilla mentioned it earlier, like sword of Damocles hanging over me.


EDIT: Said that i still have a time so i might change my mind.

You can argue for what you want. Least worse case is to get a reference and agree termination. However, if an employer fails to follow correct employment and dismisal procedure, then it's unfair dismissal.

Get to the CAB first thing Monday.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

However, if an employer fails to follow correct employment and dismisal procedure, then it's unfair dismissal.

Not anymore: the Statutory Dismissal & Disciplinary Procedures were repealed in April of last year, and now there is only an ACAS Code of Practice. Employers are advised to follow this, but not doing so doesn't make a dismissal automatically unfair.

There may be a wrongful dismissal if the company's disciplinary procedures haven't been followed, but that would be all.

Conveniently, there's an article on unfair dismissal that went online today.


Karl Limpert

 

[bwglaw]

Some comments above are not quite correct.

From 6th April 2009 the 2004 statutory dispute resolution procedure rules have been scrapped. They have been replaced by a semi-voluntary ACAS Code of Practice.

Under the new rules there is no provision for a dismissal to be automatically unfair if the Code of Practice is not followed. Further there is no provision by which an employment tribunal has no jurisdiction if a claimant with a grievance has failed to comply with the Code. To that considerable extent problems caused by the compulsory nature of the 2004 rules are removed.

 

[craiga1971]

which part of "I did something and gave the money to the boss" (ie my job)

and

"I did a job (the same job) and kept the money for myself" could you possibly get confused over



O/P wants to stop trying to pull the wool over everyones eyes.

You've lost me, I'm afraid. The OP stated that he did not take money for the favour.

Craig

 

[bwglaw]

...and whether the OP took money or not would be irrelevant in my view.

 

[saxondale]

You've lost me, I'm afraid. The OP stated that he did not take money for the favour.

Craig

your not that nieve .................

 

[bwglaw]

your not that nieve .................

you mean 'naive'

 

[saxondale]

you mean 'naive'

Yorkshire accent coming to the fore - cheers

 

[craiga1971]

your not that nieve .................

I don't need to make moral judgements about people. Why would I give any sort of toss if the OP was lying?

I happen to take the view that if someone asks for advice about A, B and C, then I tend to respond with regards to A, B and C and not X, Y and Z.

Craig

 

[Big Pete]

You take the same attitude with, for example, HMRC? Thought not.

You are a dinasour and a bully. If you have crap employees it is because you see them as crap and they have nothing to streve for because all you expect of them is crap. It is a self-fulling prophecy.

You do understnad that the people who work for you are just people? With hopes, aspirations, dreams, challenges, problems, etc.. Work WITH them and not against them and it will be a WIN-WIN for both sides.

I pity you.

Craig

Dont pity me Craig , i just spent the day down sunny 20c Porto Cristo Marina sorting out my Boat mooring , gorgeous blue clear water and basking in sunshine my friend .

1 more thing…

I can see that that term "cowboy employer" has been used in this thread on several occasions so here is some information about my former employer:




Case 2.
Employer sold a TV to a pensioner. Engineer went to install TV and after setting it up he realised that screen has dead pixel (which is, in most cases, very annoying and can be claimed as fault). Engineer calls employer to advice about his discovery. The conversation follows:

Employee: Hi, ermm… that TV I'm installing for Mrs. Sample has dead pixel.
Boss: Did you say anything to customer.
Employee: No, I just wanted to confirm what I should do.
Boss: Good, that dead pixel is the reason why she is getting that TV a bit cheaper.
Employee: So customer doesn't know that there is a dead pixel?
Boss: No, but she is old and her vision is not that great anymore so most likely she won't notice anyway.





EDIT: Really wanted to get this off my chest!

LMAO I reckon me and your boss would be good mates


Ok back to topic..

Being honest now , if you had worked for me and as you say all them bits you have done like using your phone etc etc , over the time ..

Well i would ask him nicely if you could have a chat , and basically calmly say your sorry , yes you should of asked him first etc etc ...

appeal to his good side and assure him it will never happen again , and maybe if he is like me he would let it go this time ..

worth a shot in my book ..

 

[bwglaw]

basking in sunshine my friend

As there is no spell checker on here, just checking; basking or busking?

If you want to keep that boat then treat your employees nicely!

btw, I'm a sailor also - went to Boat show last week.

 

[craiga1971]

Dont pity me Craig , i just spent the day down sunny 20c Porto Cristo Marina sorting out my Boat mooring , gorgeous blue clear water and basking in sunshine my friend .

I guess the difference between is that when I go to bed tonight I KNOW I can rest easy knowing that I have not, did not and will not treat people the you say you do/have.

Only 20c - Pah!

Craig