being conned

[Crome]

hi all, need some advice.
I am a self-employed small construction business that needs a bit of help during covid, so a guy contacted me as a carpenter and agreed to offer a hand, long but short story he then had some of his workers on contracts of mine helping out. The worst thing i did was meet this guy but it has taken a while for me to work this guy out. No written contract has been made with this guy and likewise, nothing has been agreed in any way about payments although I have been paying him as work has progressed. I'm now left in a position where he is threatening to bankrupt me and demanding £120,000.
He has upset many of my customers with bad work, he also employs all Bolivians and pays only cash and no tax. I have already paid him 47,000 to his ltd company which according to companies house has no accounts also he has six other companies and a few dissolved ones all with no accounts showing, I think this guy is a con artist but hard to prove and obviously worried about claims he can just bankrupt me, so need some advice, thanks in advance.

 

[japancool]

I'm now left in a position where he is threatening to bankrupt me and demanding £120,000.

What exactly is he threatening to do?

Do you dispute the amount you owe him?

If no contract has been agreed and nothing has been agreed about payments, on what basis are you paying him?

 

[Crome]

He says he can make me bankrupt and is threatening to do so, also I dispute the whole amount as he has already been paid a massive amount and I have huge performance problems with him in regards to his Bolivian works sitting around on jobs most days with little work going on .My customer s are constantly ccomplaint.
I have been paying on work done verbally.

 

[Mark T Jones]

Far too much missing information to give any meaningful advice

I suspect much of it will be missing in a literal sense, which might be in your favour.

In order to bankrupt you they will need to prove debt; it appears that there has been no contract, and quite possibly no record of what was actually done or supplied.

If the above is true, then frankly I'd bluff them.

 

[Crome]

Thank you, all info is correct and true and on top of that work that has been done has not been done correctly this guy has turned out to be a nightmare and now I find out that the guys working for him have no tax paid, hopefully this has no comeback to me.
Again thanks for advice

 

[Mark T Jones]

Thank you, all info is correct and true and on top of that work that has been done has not been done correctly this guy has turned out to be a nightmare and now I find out that the guys working for him have no tax paid, hopefully this has no comeback to me.
Again thanks for advice

Keep on top of and note any communication with him.

Information & record keeping are your friends (that applies to all business moving forward)

 

[kulture]

First thing to do is calm down. Ask him to document everything that he claims to have done for you. Then contact all your customers and find out what they think has been done and sort your customers out. This is the most important thing. Sort out your customers. Make your customers happy.

Then, and only then, look at the work that you now know has been done by him and his “team” and look at what you have already paid for it. If as you say there is no paperwork, then how can anyone put a true value on the work done? Can you? Have you overpaid in your opinion? Can you produce any evidence that you have overpaid? Is there remedial work that is needed? Have you asked him to fix any problems or have you lost confidence that he can fix them.

Ignore his blustering and threats. There is a long way to go before he is anywhere near to taking you to court let alone bankruptcy.

 

[pentel]

At this point it would be very sensible to sit in front of your computer and write up a timeline of how you met him, what was agreed, what was said by whom and when, what was paid etc etc etc missing nothing out. A full timeline with everything you can remember / prove along with all paperwork, emails, texts etc.

Then go back over it again and again until you are happy with what you have written. You wont need it yet, but you probably will in the future. Now is the time to do this, memory fades

 

[Marbman]

why not threaten to tell the tax man about him and his operations, this might scare him off.

 

[IanSuth]

why not threaten to tell the tax man about him and his operations, this might scare him off.

Or the IND as Bolivians have no automatic right to work in the UK and the £5k (or is it 10 now) fine per breach might dissuade him as well

 

[MOIC]

@Crome This seems way above your head. The best you can do at this stage is to get all the information together, verbal agreements, work done, complaints, proof of payments, written correspondence, all in chronological order, so its nice and neat.

Then go and see a solicitor, let him read it (scan if it's easier) and get him to write a letter to the 'contractor'.

It will be money well spent and will put your mind at rest.

Might need to get a 'bodyguard', if you're that way inclined.

 

[Crome]

@Crome This seems way above your head. The best you can do at this stage is to get all the information together, verbal agreements, work done, complaints, proof of payments, written correspondence, all in chronological order, so its nice and neat.

Then go and see a solicitor, let him read it (scan if it's easier) and get him to write a letter to the 'contractor'.

It will be money well spent and will put your mind at rest.

Might need to get a 'bodyguard', if you're that way inclined.

Or the IND as Bolivians have no automatic right to work in the UK and the £5k (or is it 10 now) fine per breach might dissuade him as well

Again thank you for all the info I am trying to gather all info together and statements bit of a mare

 

[DWS]

If in construction have all the payments you made to this Company been submitted on the monthly CIS returns? This will give you a record of how much you paid them.
What about VAT?

 

[inneedofhelp]

Hi if you have business insurance check your policy as it might have a legal helpline

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

To put it in its most learned context this bloke is full of s££t
People that work beyond the radar of the revenue and pay casual worker cash don't understand the first thing about the legal system.
Tell him to sling his hook

 

[The Resolver]

Write and ask him for a breakdown of the £120,000.

He is entitled to some payment for work done which, in the absence of any agreement on a figure, would likely be assessed by a court (if it went that far) by what is reasonable in the trade.

So:-

1. Work out a typical specification of work he has undertaken. for you and seek quotatons from other carpenters.

2. Have a friend contact him and ask for a quote for the same type/extent of work.

3. With that information decide what you feel is a fair and proper price if the work is done to a reasonable standard

4. Do what kulture says above about contacting your clients and to see if content with his work. If not list what wrong and assess a reduction.

5. With the above info decide on a range of amounts within which you would be prepared to negotiate then invote him to negotiate with blind bidding at my site at www.MySmartNegotiator.com But negotiate on a 'Subject to Contract and Without Prejudice" basis as want warranties from him in case problems are incurred subsequently (could agree warranties before negotiate if he agrees)

 

[Crome]

Again thanks I am in process of speaking to the clients who have also advised me that none of the workers speak a word of English , whether this is relevant or not I'm not sure

 

[DWS]

Again thanks I am in process of speaking to the clients who have also advised me that none of the workers speak a word of English , whether this is relevant or not I'm not sure

Can’t see that it’s relevant at all, just because you do not speak English does not make you a bad carpenter!

 

[jnc]

Hi Crome, sorry to hear about the mess you are in. As a start, document the timeline of contact with him. Kulture is correct: keep your customers happy. Get your accounts in order via your accountant. Make sure you are legal and above board. Write to this guy (makes it official) even better if you use a solicitor. Explain your issue with him and then threaten to bring in HMRC to investigate yours and his dealings, as you feel his use of foreign labour may be illegal. If he is as dodgy as you make him out to be He will run for the hills….

 

[tony84]

Nobody can just make you bankrupt.

There is a process, it involves you and them discussing it - that has been done. They think there is a debt, you do not.

He now has a choice of making it formal and taking it to solicitors and ultimately court. £120,000 means he will have to pay the court £6,000 just to hear the case. He would have to be very confident he will win to outlay £6k.

Personally, I would say you do not believe you owe him anything and leave it at that. Assuming that is the case, let him decide if he wants to go to court. If you get paperwork from the courts, then is probably the time to start to worry, not that you will lose but that he believes enough he will win.

As has been said. Go and speak to your customers, explain that you outsourced some of the work based on unfulfilled promises from a tradesman and you are very sorry but that they no longer work on behalf of you anymore and to not let them on to the premises. Maybe also give them a letter to that effect (to cover your back as much as anything). Keep your customers happy as you will be relying on that to keep work coming in.

 

[ChrisCallaghan]

He now has a choice of making it formal and taking it to solicitors and ultimately court. £120,000 means he will have to pay the court £6,000 just to hear the case. He would have to be very confident he will win to outlay £6k.

And even then, in the unlikely event he was successful in obtaining a judgement, he would need to spend a further £1,500 for a bankruptcy petition deposit (assuming it takes him beyond 01/11/2022 to get a judgement) plus solicitors fees to begin the process of attempting to make you bankrupt.

As @tony84 and others have suggested, it is no simple matter for this person to make you bankrupt. All the advice given on this post about preparing and gathering comprehensive information (timeline, evidence where possible etc) will put in the best place to defend yourself should this individual ever actual bring a court claim against you.

 

[japancool]

I'd be more concerned about a couple of large Bolivians turning up at your door than a bankruptcy petition.

 

[tony84]

The average height of a bolivian man is 5'4 according to google. Your fine, even I would be bigger than them and im a right short ass!

 

[Crome]

The average height of a bolivian man is 5'4 according to google. Your fine, even I would be bigger than them and im a right short ass!

Maybe some good news he has had 7 ltd companies 3 still active and no accounts filed what has been filed barley constitutes account's

 

[japancool]

Maybe some good news he has had 7 ltd companies 3 still active and no accounts filed what has been filed barley constitutes account's

Well, he's probably filed micro accounts. What you see on Companies House will not be the full accounts.

 

[Crome]

Can’t see that it’s relevant at all, just because you do not speak English does not make you a bad carpenter!

I am trying to establish if they have working rights I may be wrong be thought to legally work you should have basic language skills

 

[Crome]

Well, he's probably filed micro accounts. What you see on Companies House will not be the full accounts.

Yes micro accounts but still shows only 10 k turnover also I have written confirmation from one of he s guys that tax never paid

 

[Newchodge]

I am trying to establish if they have working rights I may be wrong be thought to legally work you should have basic language skills

No, there isn't, yet, a requirement for anguage skills to work here.

 

[Crome]

No, there isn't, yet, a requirement for anguage skills to work here.

Thanks

 

[Paul Norman]

Follow the advice above precisely, and it is fairly unlikely this guy can bankrupt you.

He has, of course, done a lot of damage to your business, and you need to focus on fixing that.

I assume, by the way, that he is not any longer doing any work at all for you?

 

[Crome]

Yes he has done damage and I am trying to smooth things over with customers also no he no longer works for me.