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Beachcomber said:
Just as biblical quotes prove nothing, wiki links and googled results cannot ever replace reasoned argument and debate.

if something is worth saying, say it in your own words, with your own conviction and with your own belief. Otherwise, just don't. ;)
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I know it may seem strange to you ,but I prefer to back up debates with facts allied to the many experts who can explain things much better than I.

Far to many posts based on one persons experience.IMHO:)
 
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ChrisAITY said:
Why is it so hard to accept that bloodless surgery is proven to have a better outcome with surgery...?

JAMA!
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You want me just to accept your word?
Would you accept mine?

I am genuinely interested and would like to read the original article this quote came from, please.
 
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sirearl said:
I know it may seem strange to you ,but I prefer to back up debates with facts allied to the many experts who can explain things much better than I.
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Any point of view, whether factually right or wrong, can be confirmed by googling hard enough - try putting your views in your own words, using your own experince and point of view.

If you cannot explain your views properly then perhaps it's because you do not have a full and complete understanding of the topic at hand and need to do further reading to fill in the gaps before entering into a debate. ;)
 
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cmiddleton said:
You want me just to accept your word?
Would you accept mine?

I am genuinely interested and would like to read the original article this quote came from, please.
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If a doctor said I needed surgery, i'd just follow the normal guidelines, blood transfusion if needed etc etc... I am not against blood LOL.. I'm just stating this method of surgery has been around for years, and America are increasing the use of this equipment as they are seeing the benefits, why won't we.... At the end of the day, it pretty much comes down to money..

It's on JAMA, the medical association in america, or just use the famous google and read articles yourself, there are many available :)

Seen as you work as a nurse, why don't you just ask some surgeons or doctors and see what they have to say, instead of filling up this thread.

Look at all the risks involved with blood.......

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Blood-transfusion/Pages/Risks.aspx

This debate is pathetic, and I am no longer going to comment on this subject.. As I said yesterday, the only reason you joined is to create an even bigger debate by the big 'I am a nurse' talk.. If I need to talk to a nurse, i'll head straight over and speak with my mum..

Have a nice day
 
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I find it funny that others speak of "risk" when carrying out Blood transfusions. If you need a blood transfusion you're already at risk (probably of dying!), and the only reason you'll do it is because taking the "risk" could possibly help you.

People can talk about "bloodless surgery", but that doesn't negate the fact there are lots of times when bloodless surgery is not an option, and again I'll point out that blood plays a big part in plenty of cancer treatments.
 
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Subbynet said:
I find it funny that others speak of "risk" when carrying out Blood transfusions. If you need a blood transfusion you're already at risk (probably of dying!), and the only reason you'll do it is because taking the "risk" could possibly help you.

People can talk about "bloodless surgery", but that doesn't negate the fact there are lots of times when bloodless surgery is not an option, and again I'll point out that blood plays a big part in plenty of cancer treatments.
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Subby, yes your right, I am not taking anything away from the traditional surgery methods, I am just indicating that blood is not the bee all and end all to medicine!
 
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ChrisAITY said:
The whole thread I am referring to :) 8000+ posts on religion, its ridiculous.
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So ridiculous, you feel the need to join in?

This is one of the most interesting threads I have ever seen on any forum, anywhere, for sheer longevity alone if nothing else.

Can you answer the question "why join in?"
 
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cmiddleton said:
Why take part then?
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Why does anyone take part? To have an opinion on something, but when everything gets taken out of context, or taken to an extreme level, it's like children in a playground..

Middleton, since you have joined, all you have done is stir.... Research, speak to other professionals about bloodless surgery and see what they say, why go on a public forum, give yourself this new 'look at me' title of a nurse, to try and show superiority.... If you have been in the medical industry for 20 years, then I would expect you to be a bit more open minded and research into new topics, as ever the NHS is constantly evolving.

I have said I do not have anything against blood, I have been open and said if I were to need surgery, and I required blood, I would take it..... what your doing is pulling apart a medical device that also saves lifes, just because blood is tradition. It's ridiculous.
 
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Subbynet said:
I find it funny that others speak of "risk" when carrying out Blood transfusions. If you need a blood transfusion you're already at risk (probably of dying!), and the only reason you'll do it is because taking the "risk" could possibly help you.

People can talk about "bloodless surgery", but that doesn't negate the fact there are lots of times when bloodless surgery is not an option, and again I'll point out that blood plays a big part in plenty of cancer treatments.
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Let's say for instance there is a car crash, the patient has already lost a lot of blood, a blood transfusion is generally the only option in order to replace what has been lost, plus it's cheaper for the NHS & quicker...

Majority of the statements that have been made suggesting contracting diseases etc are from years ago, blood that is used in transfusions these days have been cleaned/screened for issues... it's like hey you're going to get HIV because you've had a blood transfusion!! - seriously, it's 2012 not the 1980's... these people need to keep up with the times and stop acting like dinosaurs.
 
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I have a scenario for our nurse.............

If a patient said to you, "I want bloodless surgery".... Would you try and convince them otherwise, or would you respect there wishes to use this method? Would you say to them, that there is no evidence to support why they want this particular style of treatment, or would you just accept that's what they want?

Same situation here, I am stating that blood is not the bee all and end all of surgery, and you are just not accepting anything other.... I have already accepted I would take blood, I have no problem with it, I am just open to the fact there are alternatives that are better in quite a lot of situations.
 
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AuthorizedAccess said:
Let's say for instance there is a car crash, the patient has already lost a lot of blood, a blood transfusion is generally the only option in order to replace what has been lost, plus it's cheaper for the NHS & quicker...

Majority of the statements that have been made suggesting contracting diseases etc are from years ago, blood that is used in transfusions these days have been cleaned/screened for issues... it's like hey you're going to get HIV because you've had a blood transfusion!! - seriously, it's 2012 not the 1980's... these people need to keep up with the times and stop acting like dinosaurs.
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So your suggesting it's perfect then? Oh dear!! How naive must you be..
 
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Who said it was perfect? at no point have I said it was perfect, what I said was that when blood is lost you have to replace it... I also stated a fact that the only negative replies towards the procedure provided by people are outdated by 30 + years...quite simple really... so less of the "how naive must you be" crap.

I have a scenario for our nurse.............

If a patient said to you, "I want bloodless surgery".... Would you try and convince them otherwise, or would you respect there wishes to use this method? Would you say to them, that there is no evidence to support why they want this particular style of treatment, or would you just accept that's what they want?

Same situation here, I am stating that blood is not the bee all and end all of surgery, and you are just not accepting anything other.... I have already accepted I would take blood, I have no problem with it, I am just open to the fact there are alternatives that are better in quite a lot of situations.
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Doctors, surgeons and nurses have to respect the patients wishes there is no two ways about that, however if a bloodless surgery is not an option for what that patient needs then it is down to them to preserve life, that is the job that they have taken on.

As I've stated previously, if blood has already been lost it has to be replaced you can't just use the cell saver method with what is already there as it will have no positive outcome.

Lets look at this for a moment... again an outdated abstract however...

Int J Artif Organs. 1999 May;22(5):342-6.
Extracorporeal therapies: should we use plasma instead of blood?
Ronco C.
Source
Department of Nephrology, St. Bortolo Hospital, Vicenza, Italy. [email protected]
Abstract
The evolution of extracorporeal therapies has required the parallel evolution of devices designed to extract the blood from the patient and to move it in the extracorporeal circuit. Blood is a peculiar fluid in which viscosity may be strongly affected by the contingent operational conditions of the extracorporeal circuit. Because hematocrit is an important component of blood viscosity, and viscosity may definitely affect the performance of blood purification devices, major problems arise when high hematocrits are present in the patient. All these problems might be avoided if plasma could be used instead of whole blood. Plasma treatment is already performed in various therapies, but the treated plasma is obtained by separation from whole blood in the extracorporeal environment. In this paper we propose a new approach to perform different plasma treatments. Plasma is extracted directly from the patient thanks to a special catheter or plasma extraction device. Utilizing plasma-filtration technology to create a membrane that is placed on the tip of an intravascular catheter, plasma extraction may become easy to perform. The extracted plasma is then available for any type of treatment before being restituted to the patient via a second lumen in the same catheter.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10467934

The above was from 1999 yet, whenever an accident occurs, whenever surgery is needed the professionals still insist on blood transfusions, why do you think that is? - Could it be that technology has progessed so much now that we're actually able to clean blood stock so that it is technically "perfect"?

Personally I'm no doctor, but if they say it's the right thing to do... then it's fine by me... You don't go asking a Mechanic to perform heart surgery on you do you?
 
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sirearl said:
You really think thats true.?

So the world may be flat.;)

Its a search engine ,not the bible.:eek:

Research,research,research the key to knowledge .:)
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For all its faults, you are more likely to find the truth in Google (along with a lot of rubbish) rather than any religious text.
 
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sirearl said:
You really think thats true.?

So the world may be flat.;)

Its a search engine ,not the bible.:eek:

Research,research,research the key to knowledge .:)
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:

No, the key to knowledge is the understanding of information, not just the reading of it.

It knowledge alone were key then librarians would have taken over the world long ago. ;)

Search engines cannot discriminate between fact and fiction, good research and poor research - so relying on searches to produce your reading material is flawed.

And again, if you have to search that hard to find out about something, it's probably a pretty good indicator you do not know enough about that subject to be entering into debates about it.:p

As fro the earth being flat - I'm sure you could google a site that will argue this is true, hence the above comments.
 
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ChrisAITY said:
Why does anyone take part? To have an opinion on something, but when everything gets taken out of context, or taken to an extreme level, it's like children in a playground..

Middleton, since you have joined, all you have done is stir.... Research, speak to other professionals about bloodless surgery and see what they say, why go on a public forum, give yourself this new 'look at me' title of a nurse, to try and show superiority.... If you have been in the medical industry for 20 years, then I would expect you to be a bit more open minded and research into new topics, as ever the NHS is constantly evolving.

I have said I do not have anything against blood, I have been open and said if I were to need surgery, and I required blood, I would take it..... what your doing is pulling apart a medical device that also saves lifes, just because blood is tradition. It's ridiculous.
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I ask anyone to read the posts I have posted in comparison to the ones this 'gentleman' has posted to see who the stirrer is.
I have never tried to position myself in authority over you. I mentioned my profession as I'd never heard of the procedure you were ORIGINALLY talking about.

The disdain and disrespect you have shown me on this forum since I got here, only yesterday, tells us far more about you then it does about me.

I have been trying to have a reasonable debate with you but you seem intent on a slagging match.

I would like an apology for your behaviour really, but as this will not, I am sure, be forthcoming.
I suggest we calm things down and get back to the debate.

I am certainly prepared to be reasonable, however if you continue in this vain then please be prepared to get as good as you give. I've never been one for taking things lying down or accepting anything anyone tells me on face value but only on proof, experience and research.
You are entitled to your opinion, but so am I. Please respect that.

I am very open-minded, which is why I asked you for your reasons for believing what you do and asked you to quote your sources.
Besides the pissing contest, it's been a very interesting debate.

Try, please try, to leave your anger at the door and let us continue as gentlemen with a reasonable, well-informed and good-intentioned debate about the issues.
In a spirit of reconciliation I unreservedly apologise if I have said anything that has upset you.
 
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Look, I have no anger in this matter, I couldn't care less about it to be honest, I just don't like it when people jump on this forum, just to try and push boundaries.

I can apologise if you think I have been angry, maybe the way I word things are a little 'sarcastic', however I will not be continuing with this debate.

I have always held up my hands, and stated that I am not against blood, why would I be, I just wanted to say that there are alternatives, that is all.

If you look over your posts, I think your'll find you have been rude at times, however this is a forum, a forum for open discussion, a forum where people from different walks of life interact with each other, and on this forum, there are far worse people than myself, as I have said, and to be honest you get used to it after a while, hense why I have argued.. Bad habits.

I apologise if you think I have been angry, because I have not, and I apologise if anything I have said, has caused any sort of offence.

I like a healthy debate, I am not a horrible person, far from to be honest, and your accusations could not be more wrong, so to be honest, with my apology, I expect one back.. I am not saying sorry because you have said to, I am saying sorry because I genuinely am, and I sent you a reasonable PM yesterday to stop this, but you did choose to ignore this and carry on.

Let's just leave it at that, as I am not carrying on and wasting my time on this thread.

:) :p
 
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ChrisAITY said:
Look, I have no anger in this matter, I couldn't care less about it to be honest, I just don't like it when people jump on this forum, just to try and push boundaries.

I can apologise if you think I have been angry, maybe the way I word things are a little 'sarcastic', however I will not be continuing with this debate.

I have always held up my hands, and stated that I am not against blood, why would I be, I just wanted to say that there are alternatives, that is all.

If you look over your posts, I think your'll find you have been rude at times, however this is a forum, a forum for open discussion, a forum where people from different walks of life interact with each other, and on this forum, there are far worse people than myself, as I have said, and to be honest you get used to it after a while, hense why I have argued.. Bad habits.

I apologise if you think I have been angry, because I have not, and I apologise if anything I have said, has caused any sort of offence.

I like a healthy debate, I am not a horrible person, far from to be honest, and your accusations could not be more wrong, so to be honest, with my apology, I expect one back.. I am not saying sorry because you have said to, I am saying sorry because I genuinely am, and I sent you a reasonable PM yesterday to stop this, but you did choose to ignore this and carry on.

Let's just leave it at that, as I am not carrying on and wasting my time on this thread.

:) :p
Click to expand...
Well I wish you all the best in the future and hope have more enjoyable debates on other threads rather than this one.
 
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Beachcomber said:
:rolleyes:

No, the key to knowledge is the understanding of information, not just the reading of it.

It knowledge alone were key then librarians would have taken over the world long ago. ;)

Search engines cannot discriminate between fact and fiction, good research and poor research - so relying on searches to produce your reading material is flawed.

And again, if you have to search that hard to find out about something, it's probably a pretty good indicator you do not know enough about that subject to be entering into debates about it.:p

As fro the earth being flat - I'm sure you could google a site that will argue this is true, hence the above comments.
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You could possibly find a site that says wheels are square.

But in the meantime back on planet Earth.;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research
 
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sirearl said:
You could possibly find a site that says wheels are square.

But in the meantime back on planet Earth.;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research
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That why the Bible is such a special Book, as it gives advance knowledge of what is going to happen, priceless, as you can get prepared for what the future holds.

We see the example of Noah, who was given advance warning, what to do to safeguard his family, and was able to save them.

Advance Knowledge is really important, would you agree?
 
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DCE said:
That why the Bible is such a special Book, as it gives advance knowledge of what is going to happen, priceless, as you can get prepared for what the future holds.

We see the example of Noah, who was given advance warning, what to do to safeguard his family, and was able to save them.

Advance Knowledge is really important, would you agree?
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Of course - that advance knowledge was invaluable.

I particularly liked the bit where they warned against the rise of global corporations, space flight, mobile phones, the internet, the genocide of WWII etc, etc.

Oh hang on, no - none of that is in there.

Nor are kangeroos, wombats, polar bears, parrots, pandas, kiwi birds or any other type of flora or fauna that didn't live within a stones throw of the middle east.

Was god blinkered, did he favor those who lived in the middle east or was the whole thing written by man using his knowledge of what surrounds him?

And again, you mention noah - so what was up with everyone elses boat?
Surely that is covered somewhere?
 
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I also forgot to mention the fact the Christians among the Jews were given advance warning to get out of Jerusalem, as it was going to destroyed.

This is what the Christians did in 66 C.E. and fled to the mountains of Judah. which Jesus Christ had told them to do, when they saw certain things happening around them.

We know that history testifies that Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 C.E. it's Religious System, it's Commercial System, all destroyed, and over One million Jews lost there lives.

Only the Christians who had heeded the Advance Knowledge they had been given by Jesus, were saved.

IN Jerusalem, in the Middle East, there is a fascinating historic site that demands the attention of thinking people today.

It is the elevated area where there stood "a temple of immense wealth," in the words of the first-century Roman historian Tacitus.

No trace of the temple buildings remains, but the platform does. It bears testimony to the truthfulness of a prophetic sign that affects you.

Archaeologists have made many discoveries to the south of the temple platform. "One of the most interesting finds," states J. A. Thompson in The Bible and Archaeology, "was a number of huge blocks of Herodian masonry evidently cast from the top of the Temple wall at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70."

The destruction of Jerusalem and its temple was foretold 37 years before it happened.

No less than three historians recorded Jesus Christ's words that "not a stone upon a stone will be left here and not be thrown down." (Luke 21:6; Matthew 24:1, 2; Mark 13:1, 2)

That is why gaining Advance Knowledge is so important, would you agree?
 
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DCE said:
I also forgot to mention the fact the Christians among the Jews were given advance warning to get out of Jerusalem, as it was going to destroyed...........over One million Jews lost there lives.
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Shame they didn't see fit to prophesise the death of over 6 times that number during the holocaust. Why is that?


Only the Christians who had heeded the Advance Knowledge they had been given by Jesus, were saved.
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So was Morgan Robertson a prophet who predicted the sinking of the Titanic?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futility,_or_the_Wreck_of_the_Titan

Maybe we need to wake up to the fact that comic books predict the future also:
http://www.cracked.com/article_18836_6-eerily-specific-world-events-predicted-by-comics.html

:rolleyes:
 
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blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah......

meanwhile in the real world, innocent children a still dying of hunger not really caring if there is a god or who the real god is, just hoping that people will stop talking and start taking action to take way their pain and suffering.

Stop talking - start helping

http://plan-international.org/

Bobby
 
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BobbyBoy said:
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah......

meanwhile in the real world, innocent children a still dying of hunger not really caring if there is a god or who the real god is, just hoping that people will stop talking and start taking action to take way their pain and suffering.

Bobby
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Well thanks for that valuable input.
Tell me, what have you done today to alleviate world poverty?:rolleyes:
 
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Today????

Well..... we sponsor over 12 families in the developing world, month in - month out...

Year in - year out - for over 10 years now.

What did you do

Bobby
 
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BobbyBoy said:
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah......

meanwhile in the real world, innocent children a still dying of hunger not really caring if there is a god or who the real god is, just hoping that people will stop talking and start taking action to take way their pain and suffering.

Stop talking - start helping

http://plan-international.org/

Bobby
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Is it not true that much disease is a result of man’s own poor living habits and his spoiling of the environment for himself and others?

Are not the wars fought by humans a major cause of human suffering?

Is it not also true that, while millions suffer from lack of food, there is more than enough in other lands, so that one of the underlying problems is human greed?

All these things give evidence, not that there is no God, but that humans are sadly misusing their God-given abilities and the earth itself.
 
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Oh - forgot to say that I also grow much of the food we eat
and have taken it on myself to heat our home without any fossil fuels.

All goes towards alleviating world poverty, not just today but every day

Bobby
 
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BobbyBoy said:
Today????

Well..... we sponsor over 12 families in the developing world, month in - month out...

Year in - year out - for over 10 years now.
Click to expand...

Very admirable, if true.
Do you do this altruistically or as a device to enable you to lord it over others?

What did you do
Click to expand...

To alleviate world poverty? Absolutely nothing.

Why? Because it is not a problem that can be solved by charity, giving or money. These only serve to perpetuate the problem, not resolve it.
 
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Beachcomber said:
Do you do this altruistically or as a device to enable you to lord it over others?
.
Click to expand...

I do it purely to help alleviate the suffering of others.

Nothing complicated, just helping people who are unable for whatever reason to help themselves. Would like to think that others might do the same for me if roles were reversed, but I guess that from where you're coming from you wouldn't wee on me if I was on fire in the street.


Bobby
 
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