Are you a Christian?

For anyone genuinely interested in what biology has to say about the origin of altruism, there's a useful paper here:

http://www.illc.uva.nl/~seop/entries/altruism-biological/

But don't get too literal about it. Steve wants all this stuff to be mechanistic but Steve has absolutely no understanding of it.

We know that animals of all kinds show altruistic behaviour but the kind that humans are capable of far exceeds that - and so does our capacity to do immense harm. Of course the former is supposed to be a gift from god while the latter is a gift from Satan.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
You're claiming that agape love is ultimately selfish, which any naturalist must do - because you deny any supernatural influence.

Yes, I'm saying we are all motivated at a basic level by a selfish type of influence in our actions.

I'm claiming that, by definition, it is not selfish. Your response, if I understand it, is that we can never know because those who demonstrate it die with the secret of their intent (or maybe hide their identity so you cannot ask).

Why not analyze a few examples from history - even the soldier example I quoted above - and explain why you believe the actions were ultimately selfish?
#

No sorry, that places on the onus back on me, when the onus is on you to prove your claim.

I cannot analyse the soldier example fully, the guy is DEAD... Like I said before, these examples you cite will be of dead people, the very people we cannot ask. I'm sure agape love doesn't mean taking ones life, so why are all the examples of dead people?

It's a cop-out to claim that we'll never know and that I must simply accept it on 'faith'.

You said it. :rolleyes:
 
Upvote 0
No sorry, that places on the onus back on me.
Funny that - given that you're the one claiming that all 'love' is ultimately selfish. ;)

Let's take the example of the soldier. OK, the guy is dead, but let's be scientists for a moment and try to analyze with the data available. After all, science does not depend on intent, right? Cold hard facts are what matter.

1) The soldier acted in an instant to save someone he didn't know. There was no time to make a rational decision. In other words, the selfishness you claim must be an instinct of some sort.

2) The soldier lost his life doing this, and, even in that split second, he must have known this to be very likely. Why sacrifice his life in this way? His own potential, unborn children (genes) would suffer in an attempt to promote the genes of another. Where's the selfishness in that?

3) Most likely (although we can't be sure), the child's parents were not too happy to see a foreign soldier on their soil and wished him dead. In other words, the soldier and the child's parents were competitors in rather an extreme way. Why do anything to help such an implacable enemy?

4) The soldier died, so he did not benefit from any reward, reputation, or feeling of superiority. He must have known this when acting.

There's quite a bit of data there, and my conclusion is that his act was not in any way tainted by selfishness. Based on the same data, what is your conclusion? Or will you insist on claiming that a scientific and naturalistic explanation requires knowledge of intent? This would be odd given how strongly naturalists do their level best to remove 'intent/design' from all explanation of origins.

And one more point: You're alive, so why not enter the lab for a moment. Do you admire what the soldier did, or do you think he was downright stupid (which is what Dawkins would claim)? As you rightly suggested earlier, we must remain honest in our answers. My answer: I admire the guy. My justification: Because his actions are a fine example of agape love - a reflection of the agape love that defines my faith. I await your answer and justification.
 
Upvote 0
Sorry to harp on, but did you find your copy of the 'Selfish Gene' so we can all know what Dawkins has to say about adoptive parents? And do you still accept his words or are they now (in your latest shift) among those not meant to be taken literally?

Steve, you made the claim that Dawkins said something - I've asked you to provide the evidence. You haven't.

Put up or shut up.

While we're waiting, here's the wiki for the Selfish Gene - the only thing you really need to take from it is that it's the gene that is the level of competition; before that idea was developed we thought that it was the organism. It was a massive step and changed everything.

"The Selfish Gene is a book on evolution by Richard Dawkins, published in 1976. It builds upon the principal theory of George C. Williams's first book Adaptation and Natural Selection. Dawkins coined the term "selfish gene" as a way of expressing the gene-centred view of evolution as opposed to the view focused on the organism. From the gene-centred view follows that the more two individuals are genetically related, the more sense (at the level of the genes) it makes for them to behave selflessly. Therefore the concept is especially good at explaining many forms of altruism, regardless of a common misuse of the term along the lines of a selfishness gene.

An organism is expected to evolve to maximize its inclusive fitness — the number of copies of its genes passed on globally (rather than by a particular individual). As a result, populations will tend towards an evolutionarily stable strategy. The book also coins the term meme for a unit of human cultural evolution analogous to the gene, suggesting that such "selfish" replication may also model human culture, in a different sense. Memetics has become the subject of many studies since the publication of the book.

In the foreword to the book's 30th-anniversary edition, Dawkins said he "can readily see that [the book's title] might give an inadequate impression of its contents" and in retrospect thinks he should have taken Tom Maschler's advice and called the book The Immortal Gene.[1]"
 
Upvote 0
I believe humans can do good and selfless things on thier own with no need of outside influence. This theory is just as good (and just as non provable) as blaming it on God.

Either way, the discussion is sterile as nothing can be proven from it.

Faith is fine as long as it is used for your own private comfort. The moment it is used as a reason to impose on others, it is bad.
 
Upvote 0
Funny that - given that you're the one claiming that all 'love' is ultimately selfish. ;)

Yet I can show many examples of selfish interests (its easy, even you can do it)... You have yet to show a single example of agape love.

It shouldn't be so hard to prove in the manner you say it exists. :|

Let's take the example of the soldier. OK, the guy is dead, but let's be scientists for a moment and try to analyze with the data available. After all, science does not depend on intent, right? Cold hard facts are what matter.

A Coroner would certainly consider intent. I'm not sure why you wish to take this out of the picture given the fact no scientific data is available.

Where are the cold hard facts you speak of?

1) The soldier acted in an instant to save someone he didn't know. There was no time to make a rational decision. In other words, the selfishness you claim must be an instinct of some sort.

Soldiers are trained to make rational decisions in difficult circumstances. He might have moved a thousand kids out of the way many times before... Why do you think he moved with the intent of saving a life this time, instead of thinking I've done this many times before safely?

2) The soldier lost his life doing this, and, even in that split second, he must have known this to be very likely. Why sacrifice his life in this way? His own children (genes) would suffer in an attempt to promote the genes of another. Where's the selfishness in that?

He was a soldier, its part of the job description that you might die, so he obvious took this decision to possibly die doing his job much earlier than the actual event.

3) Most likely (although we can't be sure), the child's parents were not too happy to see a foreign soldier on their soil and wished him dead. In other words, the soldier and the child's parents were competitors in rather an extreme way. Why do anything to help such an implacable enemy?

Your making up evidence now Steve...

4) The soldier died, so he did not benefit from any reward, reputation, or feeling of superiority. He must have known this when acting.

The guy dying does not show any intent. Many soldiers have died, so why are you picking this one as a special case?

There's quite a bit of data there, and my conclusion is that his act was not in any way tainted by selfishness. Based on the same data, what is your
conclusion?

The data is faulty.

Or will you insist on claiming that a scientific and naturalistic explanation requires knowledge of intent? This would be odd given how strongly naturalists do their level best to remove 'intent' from all explanation of origins.

I will insist on claiming that we can't study anything scientifically in this case, so its a bad case to use.

And one more point: You're alive, so why not enter the lab for a moment. Do you admire what the soldier did, or do you think he was downright stupid (which is what Dawkins would claim)? As you rightly suggested earlier, we must remain honest in our answers. Personally, I admire the guy. Why? Because it's a fine example of agape love - a faint reflection of the agape love that defines my faith. I await your answer and explanation.

It doesn't matter what I "think", this is not an example of agape love. You have declared it agape love. There is a difference.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
You did not evolve from 'black ancestors' you are the same species as your black ancestors - Homo sapiens. You simply have grandparents who were black. Just like you probably have ancestors that had blue or brown eyes.

I really, really wish some of you ignorant evolution deniers would at least read the bloody subject to at least GCSE level before thinking that you have a opinion that is worth spouting public.

(I'm getting some dinner before I start shouting at this computer)

My ancestors evolved through environmental adaptation; and I really, really wish that evolutionists would take the trouble to at least learn their script properly.
 
Upvote 0
No.
Your reasoning is faulty. There is no equivalence between 'evolved from' and 'more evolved'.
All you seem to be doing is using race in an unpleasant and contentious way to try and make a spurious point: you don't like Darwinism.

I agree I was being purposefully contentious; but certainly not in any more of an unpleasant way than many of the posts that have been made challenging other peoples cherished beliefs.
 
Upvote 0
My ancestors evolved through environmental adaptation; and I really, really wish that evolutionists would take the trouble to at least learn their script properly.

I've lost the plot - Can you please remind me what point you are trying to make or deny.
 
Upvote 0
I agree I was being purposefully contentious; but certainly not in any more of an unpleasant way than many of the posts that have been made challenging other peoples cherished beliefs.

You choose your beliefs. You don't choose your race. This is why your statement went beyond tastelessness, or even impoliteness to spurious, unpleasant racism.
 
  • Like
Reactions: paultnl
Upvote 0
I've lost the plot - Can you please remind me what point you are trying to make or deny.

Certainly

You did not evolve from 'black ancestors' you are the same species as your black ancestors - Homo sapiens. You simply have grandparents who were black. Just like you probably have ancestors that had blue or brown eyes.

I really, really wish some of you ignorant evolution deniers would at least read the bloody subject to at least GCSE level before thinking that you have a opinion that is worth spouting public.

(I'm getting some dinner before I start shouting at this computer)

I am saying my ancestors evolved from Black people into White (ish) (Well OK, Brown) people through environmental adaptation (The need for Vitamin D3 and all that).

I don't particularly believe that to be true (or care) but I thought you guys were supposed to know this sort of thing.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Certainly

I am saying my ancestors evolved from Black people into White (ish) (Well OK, Brown) people through environmental adaptation (The need for Vitamin D3 and all that).

I don't particularly believe that to be true (or care) but I thought you guys were supposed to know this sort of thing.

Well you actually said:

Therefore as a White man I am more evolved than a Black man.

Which, has a rather different meaning hasn't it?

You might as well have said that the blond haired, blue eyed Danes are more evolved than the dark haired, olive skinned Spanish or the pasty faced ginger headed Scotts.

These are races - not species. Each has adapted to its environment but none are "more" evolved.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Top Hat
Upvote 0
You choose your beliefs. You don't choose your race. This is why your statement went beyond tastelessness, or even impoliteness to spurious, unpleasant racism.

I suggest that you read my post again. I was making the point that for a person to be Black and evolve to be White would suggest that a Black person was less evolved; which we know not to be true. Which is why I went on to say evolution is full of sh1t but it was censored.

Definition of evolve:

Transitive and intransitive verb develop gradually: to develop something gradually, often into something more complex or advanced, or undergo such development.
 
Upvote 0
Therefore as a White man I am more evolved than a Black man.

That ridiculousness of that statement was the whole point of the post but you decided not to read the post in it's entirety but went for the cheap shot instead.
 
Upvote 0
I suggest that you read my post again. I was making the point that for a person to be Black and evolve to be White would suggest that a Black person was less evolved; which we know not to be true. Which is why I went on to say evolution is full of sh1t but it was censored.

Definition of evolve:

Transitive and intransitive verb develop gradually: to develop something gradually, often into something more complex or advanced, or undergo such development.

You completely misunderstand the whole process. The fact that your ancestors were from Africa and were almost certainly black does not mean that you are more or less evolved because you are white. All it means is that you've lost some useful skin pigmentation.

I'm pleased that you agree with me that black people are not less evolved - otherwise I'd have to suggest that you try staying out in the sun naked all day and see how 'more' evolved you feel the day after.

I am taller than my father, who was taller than my grandfather. An average Western person is a good 6 inches (at least) taller than their early Victorian ancestors. Are they 'less' evolved or are you better fed?
 
Upvote 0
Sorry to harp on, but did you find your copy of the 'Selfish Gene' so we can all know what Dawkins has to say about adoptive parents? And do you still accept his words or are they now (in your latest shift) among those not meant to be taken literally?

Steve, you made the claim that Dawkins said something - I've asked you to provide the evidence. You haven't.

Put up or shut up.
Which is a cryptic way of saying you either don't have the book or you can't find it or you don't really care what it says. So, I had to run to Barnes & Noble to find the quote. Here it is, verbatim:

"In most cases we should probably regard adoption, however touching it may seen, as a misfiring of a built-in rule. This is because the generous female is doing her own genes no good by caring for the orphan. She is wasting time and energy which she could be investing in the lives of her own kin, particularly future children of her own. It is presumably a mistake that happens too seldom for natural selection to have 'bothered' to change the rule by making instinct more selective. In many cases, by the way, such adoptions do not occur, and an orphan is left to die."

This is so sad. Dawkins cannot explain some forms of love, even forms common to non-human animals, so he terms them a "misfiring" and a "mistake". In human terms, the soldier who gives his own life to save a stranger's child apparently makes a mistake. The passenger who jumps on the train tracks to throw a stranger's baby to safety at cost of his own life or limbs is "misfiring". Presumably, those who admire such selflessness are confused and mistaken too. In what a miserable world naturalists must live.

On the other hand, for those who recognize and believe in agape love, something reflective of the creator rather than of the creation, the world is a beautiful place. Shining through the moral darkness and frustrations of life are glimpses of the way we were meant to be - glimpses of a creator who is the essence of agape love. No, I can't prove that creator, and you can't disprove him, but it's sheer joy to me when I see examples of his character.

The same data leads us to different conclusions: To me, it's a blessing. To you, it's a mistake. That's a rather fundamental difference.
 
Upvote 0
You completely misunderstand the whole process. The fact that your ancestors were from Africa and were almost certainly black does not mean that you are more or less evolved because you are white. All it means is that you've lost some useful skin pigmentation.

I'm pleased that you agree with me that black people are not less evolved - otherwise I'd have to suggest that you try staying out in the sun naked all day and see how 'more' evolved you feel the day after.

I am taller than my father, who was taller than my grandfather. An average Western person is a good 6 inches (at least) taller than their early Victorian ancestors. Are they 'less' evolved or are you better fed?

I don't misunderstand the process at all. I am better evolved for Northern climes; if I was Black I would be at a disadvantage in the uptake of ultraviolet B so my ancestors bred out the melanin.
As you have already noted white skinned people would be at a distinct disadvantage in strong sun as is borne out by the incidence of skin cancer in Australia among people of Northern European stock.

I am shorter than my dad was but my mum was shortish, perhaps I inherited more of her genes; although I am constantly being told I am the spitting image of my dad
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Where is the contradiction?

From the fact that you said you have studied evolution and then spouted nonsense about white people evolving from black people.

It's as if I had said that I studied Bible and didn't believe it because when Moses, son of Jesus, was asked to built an arc to save the good Samaritan from Judas........

I get you don't want to / can't understand / subconsciously refuse / whatever /... to come to terms with evolution, but don't pretend to yourself and others that you have studied it.


PS: Just why did Jesus bring down the walls of Jericho again? I couldn't find an answer in the Bible to that question, so maybe it's not all it's cracked up to be?
 
Upvote 0
You choose your beliefs. You don't choose your race. This is why your statement went beyond tastelessness, or even impoliteness to spurious, unpleasant racism.

we all know what he is trying to say, its not racism is it dawg.
 
Upvote 0
Which is a cryptic way of saying you either don't have the book or you can't find it or you don't really care what it says. So, I had to run to Barnes & Noble to find the quote. Here it is, verbatim

Well finally, thank you.
(I could have saved you the trouble as I now find that the book is available online here:
http://macroevolution.narod.ru/gene/gene2.html)

It would be useful if you read it trying to understand its meaning rather than simply data mining to misrepresent it - but that's a forlorn hope.

Nevertheless, I'll try to explain the idea of the Selfish Gene because it's important. His opening paragraph says this:

We are survival machines — robot vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes.

That was a staggeringly contentious thing to say at the time and still is in some religious spheres. But its now as uncontested in the biological world as chimps and man share a common ancestor.

What it does NOT mean is what you are trying to make it mean - that we are controlled by our genes. We are not and Dawkins tries over and over again to make that clear. What our genes are programmed to do does not overcome what our minds and culture tell us what is right to do.

If you read his opening paras you should get the drift.

Having read this, you are totally at liberty to say that he is leaving the way open for a God explanation of altruism. He does not believe that to be the case, but he does agree that pure altruism needs an explanation - and he has several.

Before beginning on my argument itself, I want to explain briefly what sort of an argument it is, and what sort of an argument it is not. If we were told that a man had lived a long and prosperous life in the world of Chicago gangsters, we would be entitled to make some guesses as to the sort of man he was. We might expect that he would have qualities such as toughness, a quick trigger finger, and the ability to attract loyal friends. These would not be infallible deductions, but you can make some inferences about a man's character if you know something about the conditions in which he has survived and prospered. The argument of this book is that we, and all other animals, are machines created by our genes. Like successful Chicago gangsters, our genes have survived, in some cases for millions of years, in a highly competitive world. This entitles us to expect certain qualities in our genes. I shall argue that a predominant quality to be expected in a successful gene is ruthless {10} selfishness. This gene selfishness will usually give rise to selfishness in individual behaviour. However, as we shall see, there are special circumstances in which a gene can achieve its own selfish goals best by fostering a limited form of altruism at the level of individual animals. ‘Special’ and ‘limited’ are important words in the last sentence. Much as we might wish to believe otherwise, universal love and the welfare of the species as a whole are concepts that simply do not make evolutionary sense.

This brings me to the first point I want to make about what this book is not. I am not advocating a morality based on evolution. I am saying how things have evolved. I am not saying how we humans morally ought to behave. I stress this, because I know I am in danger of being misunderstood by those people, all too numerous, who cannot distinguish a statement of belief in what is the case from an advocacy of what ought to be the case. My own feeling is that a human society based simply on the gene's law of universal ruthless selfishness would be a very nasty society in which to live. But unfortunately, however much we may deplore something, it does not stop it being true. This book is mainly intended to be interesting, but if you would extract a moral from it, read it as a warning. Be warned that if you wish, as I do, to build a society in which individuals cooperate generously and unselfishly towards a common good, you can expect little help from biological nature. Let us try to teach generosity and altruism, because we are born selfish. Let us understand what our own selfish genes are up to, because we may then at least have the chance to upset their designs, something that no other species has ever aspired to.

As a corollary to these remarks about teaching, it is a fallacy — incidentally a very common one — to suppose that genetically inherited traits are by definition fixed and unmodifiable. Our genes may instruct us to be selfish, but we are not necessarily compelled to obey them all our lives. It may just be more difficult to learn altruism than it would be if we were genetically programmed to be altruistic. Among animals, man is uniquely dominated by culture, by influences learned and handed down. Some would say that culture is so important that genes, whether selfish or not, are virtually irrelevant to the understanding of human nature. Others would disagree. It all depends where you stand in the debate over ‘nature versus nurture’ as determinants of human attributes. This brings me to the second thing this book is not: it is not an advocacy of one position or another in the nature/nurture controversy. Naturally I have an opinion on this, but I am not going to express it, except insofar as it is implicit in the view of culture that I shall present in the final chapter. If genes really turn out to be totally irrelevant to the determination of modern human behaviour, if we really are unique among animals in this respect, it is, at the very least, still interesting to {11} inquire about the rate to which we have so recently become the exception. And if our species is not so exceptional as we might like to think, it is even more important that we should study the rule.

The third thing this book is not is a descriptive account of the detailed behaviour of man or of any other particular animal species. I shall use factual details as only illustrative examples. I shall not be saying: ‘If you look at the behaviour of baboons you will find it to be selfish; therefore the chances are that human behaviour is selfish also’. The logic of my ‘Chicago gangster’ argument is quite different. It is this. Humans and baboons have evolved by natural selection. If you look at the way natural selection works, it seems to follow that anything that has evolved by natural selection should be selfish. Therefore we must expect that when we go and look at the behaviour of baboons, humans, and all other living creatures, we shall find it to be selfish. If we find that our expectation is wrong, if we observe that human behaviour is truly altruistic, then we shall be faced with something puzzling, something that needs explaining.
 
Upvote 0
Here it is, verbatim:

"In most cases we should probably regard adoption, however touching it may seen, as a misfiring of a built-in rule. This is because the generous female is doing her own genes no good by caring for the orphan. She is wasting time and energy which she could be investing in the lives of her own kin, particularly future children of her own. It is presumably a mistake that happens too seldom for natural selection to have 'bothered' to change the rule by making instinct more selective. In many cases, by the way, such adoptions do not occur, and an orphan is left to die."

And here it is less selectively verbatim; where it is clear that Dawkins is talking about adoption in MONKEYS, not man.

"Mistakes of this sort may, however, occasionally happen in nature. In species that live in herds or
troops, an orphaned youngster may be adopted by a strange female, most probably one who has lost
her own child. Monkeywatchers sometimes use the word `aunt' for an adopting female. In most cases
there is no evidence that she really is an aunt, or indeed any kind of relative: if monkey-watchers were as
gene-conscious as they might be, they would not use an important word like `aunt' so uncritically. In
most cases we should probably regard adoption, however touching it may seem, as a misfiring of a built-
in rule. This is because the generous female is doing her own genes no good by caring for the orphan.
She is wasting time and energy which she could be investing in the lives of her own kin, particularly
future children of her own. It is presumably a mistake that happens too seldom for natural selection to
have `bothered' to change the rule by making the maternal instinct more selective.

He goes on to say that just because our genes must and do behave selfishly, humans have developed brains which allow us to override them.

It is possible that yet another unique quality of man is a capacity for genuine, disinterested, true altruism. I hope so, but I am not going to argue the case one way or the other, nor to speculate over its possible memic evolution. The point I am making now is that, even if we look on the dark side and assume that individual man is fundamentally selfish, our conscious foresight — our capacity to simulate the future in imagination — could save us from the worst selfish excesses of the blind replicators. We have at least the mental equipment to foster our long-term selfish interests rather than merely our short-term selfish interests. We can see the long-term benefits of participating in a ‘conspiracy of doves’, and we can sit down together to discuss ways of making the conspiracy work. We have the power to defy the selfish genes of our birth and, if necessary, the selfish memes of our indoctrination. We can even discuss ways of deliberately cultivating and nurturing pure, disinterested altruism — something that has no place in nature, something that has never existed before in the whole history of the world. We are built as gene machines and cultured as meme machines, but we have the power to turn against our creators. We, alone on earth, can rebel against the tyranny of the selfish replicators.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Top Hat
Upvote 0
I don't misunderstand the process at all. I am better evolved for Northern climes; if I was Black I would be at a disadvantage in the uptake of ultraviolet B so my ancestors bred out the melanin.
As you have already noted white skinned people would be at a distinct disadvantage in strong sun as is borne out by the incidence of skin cancer in Australia among people of Northern European stock.

Now that you have dropped your claim that you are 'more evolved' than a black person, I can live with what you are saying.

However, I now no longer understand what point you are trying to make. White people are genetically identical to black, we are the same species and we share common ancestors. I find that rather unsurprising.
 
Upvote 0
And here it is less selectively verbatim; where it is clear that Dawkins is talking about adoption in MONKEYS, not man.

He goes on to say that just because our genes must and do behave selfishly, humans have developed brains which allow us to override them.

Steve I'm very disappointed by you, your misrepresentation does not make you, or your cause look good.
 
Upvote 0
I don't misunderstand the process at all. I am better evolved for Northern climes; if I was Black I would be at a disadvantage in the uptake of ultraviolet B so my ancestors bred out the melanin.
As you have already noted white skinned people would be at a distinct disadvantage in strong sun as is borne out by the incidence of skin cancer in Australia among people of Northern European stock.

I am shorter than my dad was but my mum was shortish, perhaps I inherited more of her genes; although I am constantly being told I am the spitting image of my dad

Fish have been evolving just as long a people, they are just as evolved as you.
 
Upvote 0
And here it is less selectively verbatim; where it is clear that Dawkins is talking about adoption in MONKEYS, not man.
He goes on to say that just because our genes must and do behave selfishly, humans have developed brains which allow us to override them.

(Genesis 1:26-28) 26*And God went on to say: "Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth." 27*And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God's image he created him; male and female he created them. 28*Further, God blessed them and God said to them: "Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth."

It was God who gave man responsibility, it could only be measured up to, a creature of intelligence, by one possessing wisdom to do the task, justice to do it in fairness, love to do it unselfishly and for the good of his charges, and power to carry out the assignment.

These are attributes belonging to God, not to any previous earthly creatures he had made, and that is why the record shows man as being made in God's image.

Man, unlike the other earthly creatures, has the ability to reason, determine right and wrong, manifest conscience, show love, and exercise intelligent dominion over the other earthly creations, and thereby he was able to reflect God's attributes and represent Him on earth.

This need to worship is also felt by man alone of all earthly creation, supplying still another factor to the gap between man and any other animal.

Men use this faculty to this day, but many use it wrongly, but it is used.

They may feel too sophisticated to worship God.

They may even feel that to acknowledge a belief in God is beneath their intellect.

Yet they have this urge within them, and if it is not satisfied in the right way it is exercised in a wrong way.

They worship something.

Many times these persons worship themselves, their own will, their own brain, their science or art, their music or literature, or even their philosophy of atheism becomes their religion.

None of these things are satisfactory substitutes for God and they represent deterioration rather than advancement.

Some scientists and doctors are beginning to see the folly of the modern's studious banishment of God look at the mess we are in.

I think Richard Dawkins is way off the mark, he worship's himself and his own philosophy, misleading many, who listen to him.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0
(Genesis 1:26-28) 26*And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.” 27*And God proceeded to create the man in his image, in God’s image he created him; male and female he created them. 28*Further, God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth.”

It was God who gave man responsibility, it could only be measured up to, a creature of intelligence, by one possessing wisdom to do the task, justice to do it in fairness, love to do it unselfishly and for the good of his charges, and power to carry out the assignment.

These are attributes belonging to God, not to any previous earthly creatures he had made, and that is why the record shows man as being made in God’s image.

Man, unlike the other earthly creatures, has the ability to reason, determine right and wrong, manifest conscience, show love, and exercise intelligent dominion over the other earthly creations, and thereby he was able to reflect God’s attributes and represent Him on earth.

This need to worship is also felt by man alone of all earthly creation, supplying still another factor to the gap between man and any other animal.

Men use this faculty to this day, but many use it wrongly, but it is used.

They may feel too sophisticated to worship God.

They may even feel that to acknowledge a belief in God is beneath their intellect.

Yet they have this urge within them, and if it is not satisfied in the right way it is exercised in a wrong way.

They worship something.

Many times these persons worship themselves, their own will, their own brain, their science or art, their music or literature, or even their philosophy of atheism becomes their religion.

None of these things are satisfactory substitutes for God and they represent deterioration rather than advancement.

Some scientists and doctors are beginning to see the folly of the modern’s studious banishment of God look at the mess we are in.

I think Richard Dawkins is way off the mark, he worship's himself and his own philosophy, misleading many, who listen to him.

The only way i can sum up what you have just said is "Bull 'feces' " totally!
As for Dawkins, he doesn't worship him self at all, he simply brings a reasonable and substantial argument to the table that conflicts with the religious delusions of many, and the only way you can attempt to defend you're deluded beliefs and concepts is to suggest that "Dawkins worships him self" Total garbage!
 
Upvote 0
Steve I'm very disappointed by you, your misrepresentation does not make you, or your cause look good.
Oh, come one, Phil. I quoted verbatim and in context. I invited others several times to quote the passage so that I didn't have to. I'm not misrepresenting anything.

Dawkins' opinions on this matter are clear from several of his statements. We've argued before that he believes selfless individuals, such as Mother Teresa, to be not only misguided but also evil. He views humans in the same way as other creatures, so I really don't see how I've misrepresented anything here. You can certainly correct me if you wish by quoting where Dawkins admires selflessness as opposed to selfishness and believes that the one is morally superior to the other (which is what the conscience clearly tells us).
 
Upvote 0
Most animals do this... why are you so contrived as to think humans are special?

In Africa a variety of methods have been devised to catch monkeys. One is take a number of gourds, bore a hole just big enough for the monkey to get his hand through and then fill it with nuts. Finally, fasten the gourd (or gourds) to a tree and wait.

Sure enough, in time some hapless monkey will come along and stick his paw in. As soon as he grabs up a handful of nuts, the fist is too big to come back through the hole.

Now monkeys aren't too bright. They don't think about opening up their hand and running off. Oh, no! They want that handful of nuts to eat.

And so the trapper is easily able to throw a net over him before he can escape.

I think to need to rephrase what you have just said, they have limits, would you agree.

I once was an ameba in for a swim,
And then I was a tadpole with my tail tucked in.
Then I was a monkey in a banana tree,
And now I am a professor with a Ph.D.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Upvote 0
In Africa a variety of methods have been devised to catch monkeys. One is take a number of gourds, bore a hole just big enough for the monkey to get his hand through and then fill it with nuts. Finally, fasten the gourd (or gourds) to a tree and wait.

Sure enough, in time some hapless monkey will come along and stick his paw in. As soon as he grabs up a handful of nuts, the fist is too big to come back through the hole.

Now monkeys aren't too bright. They don't think about opening up their hand and running off. Oh, no! They want that handful of nuts to eat.

And so the trapper is easily able to throw a net over him before he can escape.

There is no truth to this story. Its an inspirational story not a real life account.

Can you find me a single image of a monkey with his hand stuck in a jar?
 
Upvote 0
Dawkins' opinions on this matter are clear from several of his statements....... He views humans in the same way as other creatures, .... You can certainly correct me if you wish by quoting where Dawkins admires selflessness as opposed to selfishness and believes that the one is morally superior to the other (which is what the conscience clearly tells us).

So when Dawkins says:

The point I am making now is that..........We have the power to defy the selfish genes of our birth and, if necessary, the selfish memes of our indoctrination. We can even discuss ways of deliberately cultivating and nurturing pure, disinterested altruism — something that has no place in nature, something that has never existed before in the whole history of the world. We are built as gene machines and cultured as meme machines, but we have the power to turn against our creators. We, alone on earth, can rebel against the tyranny of the selfish replicators.

Isn't that saying exactly what you believe yourself - that our brain (soul to you) takes us beyond the selfish instinct of animals?

Do you just pick out the points that you think support your biased view of what he says? Does your mind somehow turn this into something opposite than what it says?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Top Hat
Upvote 0
From the fact that you said you have studied evolution and then spouted nonsense about white people evolving from black people.

It's as if I had said that I studied Bible and didn't believe it because when Moses, son of Jesus, was asked to built an arc to save the good Samaritan from Judas........

I get you don't want to / can't understand / subconsciously refuse / whatever /... to come to terms with evolution, but don't pretend to yourself and others that you have studied it.


PS: Just why did Jesus bring down the walls of Jericho again? I couldn't find an answer in the Bible to that question, so maybe it's not all it's cracked up to be?

Well evolution didn't work on you, did it? It seems your the living proof that no matter how sane the parents they can still have an idiot child.
"We is all black" if you go back far enough, so of course I am descended from black people.
There was absolutely nothing wrong with what I said; I was trying to put a ridiculous point across and certain anal types decided to take cheap shots by accusing me of racism and you jumped on the bandwagon. Get a mind of your own.
 
Upvote 0
Well evolution didn't work on you, did it? It seems your the living proof that no matter how sane the parents they can still have an idiot child.
"We is all black" if you go back far enough, so of course I am descended from black people.
There was absolutely nothing wrong with what I said; I was trying to put a ridiculous point across and certain anal types decided to take cheap shots by accusing me of racism and you jumped on the bandwagon. Get a mind of your own.

Oh ho ho ho. Now it was just a joke, a ridiculous point used for effect. Pathetic dweeb; don't you know the 'only a joke routine' makes you look like a complete cock, rather than just a Beta one.

And if that makes me anal: bite me.
 
Upvote 0
Oh ho ho ho. Now it was just a joke, a ridiculous point used for effect. Pathetic dweeb; don't you know the 'only a joke routine' makes you look like a complete cock, rather than just a Beta one.

And if that makes me anal: bite me.

It wasn't a joke, it was an illustration; but I wouldn't expect you to know the difference. Pathetic dweeb; that is certainly rich coming from you. I would prefer to seen as a complete cock than a no cock which is the way you usually come across.
 
Upvote 0
Isn't that saying exactly what you believe yourself - that our brain (soul to you) takes us beyond the selfish instinct of animals?
No, it's not - because he has no competing force to natural selection (or 'selfishness'). You can explain selfishness in the context of personal survival. By definition, there's simply no way you can explain selflessness in those terms.

This little episode is a poignant reminder of why I pulled out of such discussions before. No one has any interest whatsoever in learning or even engaging in genuine dialog: It becomes a futile exercise in boasting whose member is bigger than the rest (no doubt an issue of natural selection). :) I have too much to do without wasting time.
 
Upvote 0
It wasn't a joke, it was an illustration; but I wouldn't expect you to know the difference. Pathetic dweeb; that is certainly rich coming from you. I would prefer to seen as a complete cock than a no cock which is the way you usually come across.

It was a poor illustration which only showed how little you know about the theory of evolution.

And no more name calling please, it will only end in getting the thread shut down.
 
Upvote 0

Latest Articles