Are you a Christian?
- Thread starter Kett
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What you meant to say say was 'some' philosophers accept it.
Of course there isn't, but religious people have to believe in evil because without it there can be no good (ref: Plantinga)
But suppose you don't believe in evil - the logic still works. Try suffering:
Premise: God created the world
Premise: There is suffering in the world
Therefore God created suffering
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DCE
From where, then, does evil come?
Remember that God has opposers, principally the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth. (Revelation 12:9)
God placed our first parents, Adam and Eve, in a trouble-free world.
But Satan convinced Eve that she would be better off without Gods rulership. (Genesis 3:1-5)
Sadly, Eve believed Satans lies and disobeyed God.
Adam joined her in this rebellion.
The result?
Death spread to all men, says the Bible.Romans 5:12.
Rather than immediately squashing this rebellion by destroying Satan and his followers, God saw fit to allow time to pass.
What would that accomplish?
For one thing, it would allow Satan to be exposed as a liar!
It would allow proof to accumulate that independence from God brings nothing but ruin.
Is that not exactly what has taken place?
The whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one. (1 John 5:19)
Furthermore, man has dominated man to his injury. (Ecclesiastes 8:9)
Mankinds religions are a maze of conflicting teachings.
Morals have fallen to an all-time low.
Human governments have tried every conceivable form of rule.
They sign treaties and adopt laws, but the needs of the common people are still unfulfilled.
Wars add misery on misery.
Clearly, we need to have God intervene and end wickedness!
But this will happen only in Gods due time.
Until then, it is our privilege to support Gods rulership by obeying his laws and principles as found in the Bible.
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And we go round and round on the merry go round.
I'll leave you with Wikipedia's statement about Plantinga's argument and leave you to debate that it's incorrect
"Most philosophers accept Plantinga's free will defence and thus see the logical problem of evil as having been sufficiently rebutted"
Note that it says "most" and not "some" as you suggest. Feel free to argue against them.
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It's the nature of it. But it all falls apart when you put all the logic together. If you make the free will argument fit in order to explain away evil; you then bu88er up the argument for prayer.
God, evil, free will and effective prayer can't co-exist in a logical argument without one of them breaking.
But ignoring the tortured philosophical arguments, do you find it a satisfactory explanation?
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Beachcomber
Seriously?
I read the above as:
- People do bad things
- People don't want to take responsibility for their actions
- People invent 'the devil / satan / lucifer / simon cowell etc, etc) to take the rap - "It wasn't my fault, I was led astray, honest guv'nor)
- People tie this concept into the whole supernatural 'god' myth as a method of control and manipulation, of which you seem to be a prime example.
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But you have just said you are a Muslim, on the other post, so it must matter to you!
Pops xx
Maybe, just getting your post count up.
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DCE
According to these scriptures it does.
(Matthew 7:21-23)Not everyone saying to me, Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22*Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name? 23*And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness.
(Matthew 7:13-14) 13Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14*whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.
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Beachcomber
DCE, I think you would have far more success in getting your point across if you were able to use your own words.
Cut 'n paste preaching just smacks of an indoctorinated drone parrotting what they have been told. Putting your point in your own words will show not only what you believe, but that you truly believe and understand it.
Worth a try?
Cut 'n paste preaching just smacks of an indoctorinated drone parrotting what they have been told. Putting your point in your own words will show not only what you believe, but that you truly believe and understand it.
Worth a try?
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That's what he's been programmed to do though Beachcomber. He's been made to follow the way of others and specifically to just copy, paste, and drone.
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He's also following orders.
He's not doing it because he's interested in the subject; he's trying to get converts. His supervisors restrict what he can do and say and as he's already admitted, he can't and won't read anything we atheists post as evidence because it's literally the devil's work.
The only thing we are ever going to get out of him and his cult is an understanding of how bonkers and controlled the JV mind is. Apparently about 7 million people think the same way; which is a bit of a worry.
He's not doing it because he's interested in the subject; he's trying to get converts. His supervisors restrict what he can do and say and as he's already admitted, he can't and won't read anything we atheists post as evidence because it's literally the devil's work.
The only thing we are ever going to get out of him and his cult is an understanding of how bonkers and controlled the JV mind is. Apparently about 7 million people think the same way; which is a bit of a worry.
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Good and evil are just relative terms that change within time and context. What was considered to be a good deed 200 years ago may be considered to be an evil act in 2010. Good and Evil is like hot and cold, relative. You might say that water that is 5 degrees C is cold and that 100 degrees C is very hot.
What if you put you hand in a bucket of ice for 10 minutes? I bet that 5 degrees C water feels pretty warm now doesn't it?
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DCE
Does evil exist? Did God create evil?
A University professor challenged his students with this question: "Did God create everything that exists?"
A student bravely replied, "Yes he did!"
"God created everything?" The professor asked.
"Yes sir", the student replied.
The professor answered, "If God created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists, and according to the principal that our works define who we are, then God is evil."
The student became quiet before such an answer. The professor, quite pleased with himself, boasted to the students that he had proven once more that the religious faith was a myth.
Another student raised his hand and said, "Can I ask you a question professor?"
"Of course," replied the professor.
The student stood up and asked, "Professor does cold exist?"
"What kind of question is this? Of course it exists. Have you never been cold?" The students snickered at the young man's question.
The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is in reality the absence of heat. Every body or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero (-460? F) is the total absence of heat; all matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."
The student continued, "Professor, does darkness exist?"
The professor responded, "Of course it does."
The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir, darkness does not exist either. Darkness is in reality the absence of light. Light we can study, but not darkness. In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wavelengths of each color. You cannot measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness and illuminate it. How can you know how dark a certain space is? You measure the amount of light present. Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man to describe what happens when there is no light present."
Finally the young man asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"
Now uncertain, the professor responded, "Of course as I have already said. We see it everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man. It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil.
To this the student replied, "Evil dies not exist sir, or at least is does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when man does not have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or the darkness that comes when there is no light."
The professor sat down.
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second time of posting this childish stuff DCE; second time also without the Watchtower CD cut and paste reference too.
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Once upon a time, there was a little girl named Goldilocks. She went for a walk in the forest. Pretty soon, she came upon a house. She knocked and, when no one answered, she walked right in.
At the table in the kitchen, there were three bowls of porridge. Goldilocks was hungry. She tasted the porridge from the first bowl.
"This porridge is too hot!" she exclaimed.
So, she tasted the porridge from the second bowl.
"This porridge is too cold," she said
So, she tasted the last bowl of porridge.
"Ahhh, this porridge is just right," she said happily and she ate it all up.
After she'd eaten the three bears' breakfasts she decided she was feeling a little tired. So, she walked into the living room where she saw three chairs. Goldilocks sat in the first chair to rest her feet.
"This chair is too big!" she exclaimed.
So she sat in the second chair.
"This chair is too big, too!" she whined.
So she tried the last and smallest chair.
"Ahhh, this chair is just right," she sighed. But just as she settled down into the chair to rest, it broke into pieces!
Goldilocks was very tired by this time, so she went upstairs to the bedroom. She lay down in the first bed, but it was too hard. Then she lay in the second bed, but it was too soft. Then she lay down in the third bed and it was just right. Goldilocks fell asleep.
As she was sleeping, the three bears came home.
"Someone's been eating my porridge," growled the Papa bear.
"Someone's been eating my porridge," said the Mama bear.
"Someone's been eating my porridge and they ate it all up!" cried the Baby bear.
"Someone's been sitting in my chair," growled the Papa bear.
"Someone's been sitting in my chair," said the Mama bear.
"Someone's been sitting in my chair and they've broken it all to pieces," cried the Baby bear.
They decided to look around some more and when they got upstairs to the bedroom, Papa bear growled, "Someone's been sleeping in my bed,"
"Someone's been sleeping in my bed, too" said the Mama bear
"Someone's been sleeping in my bed and she's still there!" exclaimed Baby bear.
Just then, Goldilocks woke up and saw the three bears. She screamed, "Help!" And she jumped up and ran out of the room. Goldilocks ran down the stairs, opened the door, and ran away into the forest. And she never returned to the home of the three bears.
THE END
At the table in the kitchen, there were three bowls of porridge. Goldilocks was hungry. She tasted the porridge from the first bowl.
"This porridge is too hot!" she exclaimed.
So, she tasted the porridge from the second bowl.
"This porridge is too cold," she said
So, she tasted the last bowl of porridge.
"Ahhh, this porridge is just right," she said happily and she ate it all up.
After she'd eaten the three bears' breakfasts she decided she was feeling a little tired. So, she walked into the living room where she saw three chairs. Goldilocks sat in the first chair to rest her feet.
"This chair is too big!" she exclaimed.
So she sat in the second chair.
"This chair is too big, too!" she whined.
So she tried the last and smallest chair.
"Ahhh, this chair is just right," she sighed. But just as she settled down into the chair to rest, it broke into pieces!
Goldilocks was very tired by this time, so she went upstairs to the bedroom. She lay down in the first bed, but it was too hard. Then she lay in the second bed, but it was too soft. Then she lay down in the third bed and it was just right. Goldilocks fell asleep.
As she was sleeping, the three bears came home.
"Someone's been eating my porridge," growled the Papa bear.
"Someone's been eating my porridge," said the Mama bear.
"Someone's been eating my porridge and they ate it all up!" cried the Baby bear.
"Someone's been sitting in my chair," growled the Papa bear.
"Someone's been sitting in my chair," said the Mama bear.
"Someone's been sitting in my chair and they've broken it all to pieces," cried the Baby bear.
They decided to look around some more and when they got upstairs to the bedroom, Papa bear growled, "Someone's been sleeping in my bed,"
"Someone's been sleeping in my bed, too" said the Mama bear
"Someone's been sleeping in my bed and she's still there!" exclaimed Baby bear.
Just then, Goldilocks woke up and saw the three bears. She screamed, "Help!" And she jumped up and ran out of the room. Goldilocks ran down the stairs, opened the door, and ran away into the forest. And she never returned to the home of the three bears.
THE END
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The reality of this is that DCE has finally proved what we have said all along, there is no evidence that God exists. You defined heat as a form of energy that can be measured, true. You defined light as a form of energy that can be measured, also true. You defined God's love as something that can be measured....er, how?
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DCE
Did not come from the Watchtower, it is one of many illustrations, Jesus used a lot of them when he was on the earth, it helps people get a better understanding of the issues.
Here's another one, which is not in the Watchtower or was used by Jesus,
Jeremiah 10:23 - "I well know O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step."
Man asked, "Does that mean merely that man was not given the right to rule???" No it means more than that to illustrate...
Suppose you go out in the country and buy a cute little piglet, take him home with you and do your level best to teach him how to fly.
Show him films on birds flying, teach him how to flap his little legs, talk to him about aerodynamics, feed him bird food and make him bunk in with the chickens for a month or two ...
Then take him up to the top of the barn and pitch him off with the command...fly, fly, fly little pig
What'll happen? Well it's obvious. He'll hit the ground like a brick.
Why?? It does not belong to pigs to fly.
Moral of the story: When will man be able to govern himself?
Answer: When pigs fly...
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I don't see what point you are making DCE. Could you please define what you see as successful governance? Based on our successful ongoing spread across the face of the earth I would say that the human race is governing itself quite nicely. More people are born each year than die so if the fundamental measure of a species success is their existance then we seem to be thriving.
Wars and famine included...we are steaming along.
Wars and famine included...we are steaming along.
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DCE
(John 7:18) 18*He that speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory. but he that seeks the glory of him that sent him, this one is true.
What do you believe the purpose of life is?
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paultnl
To quote from More Blood Sweat and Tea by Tom Reynolds
"I also sometimes wonder what the mentally disturbed would rant and rave about if we hadn't thought up the idea of religion"
His stories of life as a London Paramedic give true examples of the good things that man can do without the need to invoke non existant beings.
"I also sometimes wonder what the mentally disturbed would rant and rave about if we hadn't thought up the idea of religion"
His stories of life as a London Paramedic give true examples of the good things that man can do without the need to invoke non existant beings.
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There isn't a purpose, once you get that into your head you can live a properly purposeful life. Throw away the dogma and get to like people - in other words, get a life, it's all you have.
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DCE
Jesus was the greatest Paramedic while he was on the earth, as he healed the deaf the blind, even raised the dead, and did many wonderful things.
That was a for-glean of what God's Kingdom is going to bring about on earth very soon, do you not think that is brilliant news? I do.
(Isaiah 33:24) And no resident will say: "I am sick.
(Revelation 21:3-4) 3*With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: "Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4*And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away."
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Dawg
Jesus was a paramedic? That sounds like the title of a yiddisher country and western song:
Jesus was a paramedic
With a great big beard
And he uttered Mazel Tov
When he cut my for-glean off
With his circum-shears.
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DCE - no one reads your bloody bible quotes; use your own words.
You can start by explaining why JC's return is so late. His apostles and friends assumed his return was imminent, some of them didn't even go home after the burial.
Your lot - who have only been around all of 120 years and have been predicting the end since day 0 - have some explaining to do.
Try your OWN words. let's see if you have any.
You can start by explaining why JC's return is so late. His apostles and friends assumed his return was imminent, some of them didn't even go home after the burial.
Your lot - who have only been around all of 120 years and have been predicting the end since day 0 - have some explaining to do.
Try your OWN words. let's see if you have any.
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