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Ali-v-8 said:
I think i need to point out some thing about the words "muslim" or "islam"
A poet said what is in a name. A rose would still smell as sweet..etc.

Being a muslim by name is one thing. Being a muslim by nature is a different.
Your actions can make you muslim with out even knowing it. But does that mean you cant go heaven.

.....

Its a common practice to believe one god only. That is the only thing you must believe.
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Where are you getting this from?

I've shown you text from both the Hadith and the Koran that say quite bluntly that only Muslims can go to heaven. I've also shown you the stuff from the Islamic Information Centre that says it even more vividly. It sounds like you have a unique view of your faith - albeit a much nicer one.

But then I know nothing about islam - I suspect it's like Christianity, you can believe anything you like and find the appropriate quote from your best book. Catholics take the view that unless you're baptised by them you can't go to heaven too - but Anglicans take your relaxed attitude of 'it's ok if you behave yourself'.


Funny how these so called 'words of God' can be 'interpreted' to mean different things to different sects. If I was a god and took so much trouble to tell my sheep stuff that I considered important - I'd make damn sure that it wasn't open to interpretation - wouldn't you?
 
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I subscribe to Belina Carlisle's theology, "Heaven is a place on Earth..."

I can't imagine any God worth having who would go to the bother of making you spend approx 80 years of living in sufferance so that you could then spend the rest of eternity living in paradise. It is akin to teaching a dog to 'sit' before he gets fed for the first 5 years and then allowing him to do whatever he pleases for the remainder of his life. Why teach people one way of life in preparation for a completely different way of life.

God may exist (I believe it is possible) but religion is most certainly man-made for the sole purpose of controlling populations.

If you live your life being considerate of others, with decent morales based on hoesty and integrity and you do not cause others harm...why wouldn't you get into heaven?

If heaven is full of the kind of bible bashers who preach by day and harbour feelings on contempt to the non-religious by night, then is that really the kind of heaven you want to be in? I certainly don't. If hell is where all the cool people go then I'd rather go there.
 
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Just a little point as regards all religions.

Most of the stuff was written at a time when people thought the world was flat.

Point being that even the most average of engineering graduates probably knows more than who is considered the greatest engineer that ever lived brunell.

Hence one would have to challenge the wisdom of yesteryear based on the lack of knowledge available at that time.

Earl
 
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benjamin_c said:
I need to consider do I? I have read the bible, both new and old, and other holy scriptures and they're all total nonsense. What is your point?
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Surely your heart is sensitive to the fact that when you consider the earth-wide pollution of our planet you discern that 'all things are NOT continuing exactly as from creation's beginning.

Never before have men had the power to destroy the earth as a habitable planet.

They have that power now and they are using it now to do that very thing!

The men of science have given industrialists a technology that was to be a blessing to all mankind, but that blessing has turned into a curse, as it pollutes the environment, and deadly diseases stalk the earth.

The air we breathe is poisoned, the soil that grows our food is toxic, many rivers and lakes that supply our drinking water are dying, and the oceans are becoming international cesspools!

Is your heart aware that the earth's ability to sustain life is in danger, that this has never happened before, and that scoffers cannot dismiss this as history repeating itself?

They might like to, for this ruining of the earth was also foretold as a part of the sign of "the last days."

The Bible book of Revelation revealed this almost 19 centuries ago, in chapter 11, verse 18: "The nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give their reward to those fearing your name, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth."

Did you notice it says, bringing to ruin those ruining the earth, not the end of the world.
 
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Those dratted men of science; what are they like?

(want to give us the latest date for this apocalypse yet DCE? or are you still being coy about it?)
 
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DCE said:
Surely your heart is sensitive to the fact that when you consider the earth-wide pollution of our planet you discern that ‘all things are NOT continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.

Never before have men had the power to destroy the earth as a habitable planet.

They have that power now and they are using it now to do that very thing!

The men of science have given industrialists a technology that was to be a blessing to all mankind, but that blessing has turned into a curse, as it pollutes the environment, and deadly diseases stalk the earth.

The air we breathe is poisoned, the soil that grows our food is toxic, many rivers and lakes that supply our drinking water are dying, and the oceans are becoming international cesspools!

Is your heart aware that the earth’s ability to sustain life is in danger, that this has never happened before, and that scoffers cannot dismiss this as history repeating itself?

They might like to, for this ruining of the earth was also foretold as a part of the sign of “the last days.”

The Bible book of Revelation revealed this almost 19 centuries ago, in chapter 11, verse 18: “The nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give their reward to those fearing your name, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”

Did you notice it says, bringing to ruin those ruining the earth, not the end of the world.
Click to expand...

You weren't Lucas' understudy in Eastenders recently were you? I like that you are condemning technology and science through the medium of the internet...I certainly don't remember God creating a world wide network of millions of computers on the 6th day.
 
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bdw said:
May not be judged but it's OK to indoctrinate them? All religions believe in grabbing them as young as possible because they are very susceptible to fairy tales as toddlers.

If it was illegal to teach religion to anyone under the age of 18 it would all but disappear in a generation. Wouldn't that be heaven? :p
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It also appears that some well known atheists like to catch them early also.........


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb2fjftZrkE&feature=related


Or is it different rules for different beliefs?
 
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It also appears that some well known atheists like to catch them early also.........
Click to expand...
The difference is he was presenting actual evidence and facts as opposed to fairy stories. What would you prefer your children to be taught?
 
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stockdam said:
It also appears that some well known atheists like to catch them early also.........


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sb2fjftZrkE&feature=related


Or is it different rules for different beliefs?
Click to expand...

Catch them early for what? Teaching them fascinating facts about the world?

Next you'll be annoyed that they're being taught maths or Home Economics.

You've got one collaboration. One mashed-mixed-mutilated text, and that is all. But it's enough to throw all common sense out the window and follow.
 
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DCE said:
Surely your heart is sensitive to the fact that when you consider the earth-wide pollution of our planet you discern that ‘all things are NOT continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.

Never before have men had the power to destroy the earth as a habitable planet.

They have that power now and they are using it now to do that very thing!

The men of science have given industrialists a technology that was to be a blessing to all mankind, but that blessing has turned into a curse, as it pollutes the environment, and deadly diseases stalk the earth.

The air we breathe is poisoned, the soil that grows our food is toxic, many rivers and lakes that supply our drinking water are dying, and the oceans are becoming international cesspools!

Is your heart aware that the earth’s ability to sustain life is in danger, that this has never happened before, and that scoffers cannot dismiss this as history repeating itself?

They might like to, for this ruining of the earth was also foretold as a part of the sign of “the last days.”

The Bible book of Revelation revealed this almost 19 centuries ago, in chapter 11, verse 18: “The nations became wrathful, and your own wrath came, and the appointed time for the dead to be judged, and to give their reward to those fearing your name, and to bring to ruin those ruining the earth.”

Did you notice it says, bringing to ruin those ruining the earth, not the end of the world.
Click to expand...

I would prefer to live today in our science infected modern world than in any time in history.

How about you?
 
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bdw said:
The difference is he was presenting actual evidence and facts as opposed to fairy stories. What would you prefer your children to be taught?
Click to expand...

Facts and evidence? I'd love to hear the facts about this presentation.......fire away please.
 
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stockdam said:
Facts and evidence? I'd love to hear the facts about this presentation.......fire away please.
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Oh please don't start that again. Which of these do you think is correct?

1. The eye evolved from simpler organs and structures
2. God made the eye exactly as it is today
3. Another mechanism that no-one knows about yet

Just so we know what we're dealing with.
 
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Facts and evidence? I'd love to hear the facts about this presentation.......fire away please.
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But you religious folks don't normally require facts to believe something you are told do you? :p
 
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I am pleasantly surprises by the number of atheists and humanists who have contributed in here. It is quite refreshing to see that so many people can still open their minds.
 
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bdw said:
I am pleasantly surprises by the number of atheists and humanists who have contributed in here. It is quite refreshing to see that so many people can still open their minds.
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I was thinking the same thing :)

There's still a few too many "Die hard believers" though :rolleyes:
 
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bdw said:
But you religious folks don't normally require facts to believe something you are told do you? :p
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Ah.... faith. That wonderous word FAITH, the answer to every question that ever challenges aspects of Christianity. Where would they be without their universal faith?

You don't see many murderers or armed robbers getting away with claiming 'it was an act of faith' do you?
 
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cjd said:
Oh please don't start that again. Which of these do you think is correct?

1. The eye evolved from simpler organs and structures
2. God made the eye exactly as it is today
3. Another mechanism that no-one knows about yet

Just so we know what we're dealing with.
Click to expand...

No I couldn't be bothered going through it all again. But stick to my question......tell me where the facts and evidence is on Dawkins' presentation. The last time we had this discussion nothing was resolved.
 
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bdw said:
I am pleasantly surprises by the number of atheists and humanists who have contributed in here. It is quite refreshing to see that so many people can still open their minds.
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Another crass statement of opinion that puts up a nice strawman to comfort your own views..........of course you are the only open minded person ....... or rather anyone who disagrees is not open minded. That's a pretty poor way of going into a debate.......you've already decided that the other side has closed minds........err doesn't that sound like a closed mind? It does to me.
 
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stockdam said:
No I couldn't be bothered going through it all again. But stick to my question......tell me where the facts and evidence is on Dawkins' presentation. The last time we had this discussion nothing was resolved.
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Why not just answer the simple question I asked first - then we won't have to waste our time repeating things yet again.
 
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cjd said:
Why not just answer the simple question I asked first - then we won't have to waste our time repeating things yet again.
Click to expand...

I don't think you'll get an answer, one thing I've noticed on the Knowing the mind of god' thread is the believers are never very forthcoming with their beliefs
 
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stockdam said:
Another crass statement of opinion that puts up a nice strawman to comfort your own views..........of course you are the only open minded person ....... or rather anyone who disagrees is not open minded. That's a pretty poor way of going into a debate.......you've already decided that the other side has closed minds........err doesn't that sound like a closed mind? It does to me.
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"The other side?" That's another thing i don't like about religion, the "us and them" thing, we're all people on the same planet with the same rights, there should not be the whole "in group / out group" going on, that's how things get bad hence 9/11....
Maybe it’s a little idealic of me but I’d like to see a world where everyone gets on and has no wars or deadly conflict. Maybe one day the humanity will become much more civilised and this may be a reality, but as long as religion exists this will never happen!

Everyone has the intelligence to look at facts and make a rational choice, how so many of 'us' do not is crazy! 'the other side' as you so elegantly put it are not closed minded, they have the same mental capacity as any other human, but they have just been indoctrinated with an irrational belief system, often from a very young age, and in many it seems to be 'hard wired' into their minds. Preventing certain degrees of logical and rational thinking. we only know what we're taught in the early years, then we can learn for our selves, but if someone is conditioned to disregard anything that conflicts with the religious teachings they have been imprinted with then they do just that.. the mental schemas we all have been brought up with define how we perceive everything in life, see the following link for more info on this ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(psychology) )
 
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benjamin_c said:
we're all people on the same planet with the same rights
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Er...we all have the same rights? Never in the history of man has the entire human population had the same rights. There are de jure rights and de facto rights and historically de facto rights have always reigned supreme. Even if by some miracle it ever came to be that all humans received the same rights...who would decide what those rights are?

I would argue that the only possible way to have worldwide de facto rights would be if we played to the lowest common denominator...ie. no rights at all - every man for himself.
 
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LicensedToTrade said:
Er...we all have the same rights? Never in the history of man has the entire human population had the same rights. There are de jure rights and de facto rights and historically de facto rights have always reigned supreme. Even if by some miracle it ever came to be that all humans received the same rights...who would decide what those rights are?

I would argue that the only possible way to have worldwide de facto rights would be if we played to the lowest common denominator...ie. no rights at all - every man for himself.
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Fair point, I respect what you're saying, rights are open to interpretation. Rights are whatever society decides them to be, but most of us have a reasonable idea of how people should be treated. And know right from wrong.
 
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It started off differently - but now it's discussing the same issues so it might as well be merged.
 
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John Lennon was once my god.
Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one
Click to expand...
 
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benjamin_c said:
Everyone has the intelligence to look at facts and make a rational choice, how so many of 'us' do not is crazy! 'the other side' as you so elegantly put it are not closed minded, they have the same mental capacity as any other human, but they have just been indoctrinated with an irrational belief system, often from a very young age, and in many it seems to be 'hard wired' into their minds. Preventing certain degrees of logical and rational thinking. we only know what we're taught in the early years, then we can learn for our selves, but if someone is conditioned to disregard anything that conflicts with the religious teachings they have been imprinted with then they do just that.. the mental schemas we all have been brought up with define how we perceive everything in life, see the following link for more info on this ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_(psychology) )
Click to expand...

Nothing was forced onto me and nor is it hard-wired into me. Yes we only know what was taught to us in early years and it took a long time for me to look at what I'd been "taught" and to really question it. I then found out that a lot that I had been taught about the "Facts" of evolution were not as factual as I believed. When I asked the tough questions then I got beliefs that were packaged up as facts. It's a bit naive to believe that I have no logical or rational thinking......in fact I did a lot more thinking and research than any of the people who were trying to teach me. On the "other thread" I asked for facts on the evolution of the eye (no reason for choosing it) - the replies were full of maybes and mights with very little substance.
 
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Denise I'm coming off UKBF for the night. I don't know you that well and we haven't really spoken before but I'm concerned for you. I don't know what pressures you have on you right now but they seem to be troubling you. Remember that these feelings come in waves and as the stress builds up it will just as soon ease away with time.

If you want to have a chat you can contact me any time tomorrow on my encrypted work email address. It is an alpha numeric email address and the emails that come into the inbox can only be read from one laptop by me alone. the email address is [email protected]
 
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stockdam said:
. On the "other thread" I asked for facts on the evolution of the eye (no reason for choosing it) - the replies were full of maybes and mights with very little substance.
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You picked the evolution of the eye because it was a question Darwin asked of himself 150 years ago when he was struggling to understand his own ideas and it became an icon of evolutionary argument.

It was taken up by Darwin's opponents at the time and is still used (wrongly of course) by creationists as a problem with evolution.

The "fact" is that there's no problem here at all. We have a massive amount of evidence that shows how the human eye evolved - far more that we actually should have given the "fact" eyes are soft tissue which does not fossilize well and only because it became such an icon so long ago.

The really weird thing is that even if we had no evidence at all for any evolutionary stages of the eye at all (which we do) it would make no difference at all to anything.

Evolution is proved by literally millions of pieces of evidence across many branches of science from embryology, geology, paleontology, genetics and cell biology (etc). It does not depend on an unqualified and half understood opinion of an amateur.

So, Stockdam, I'll ask you again, do you think that the eye:

a. evolved from simpler organs and structures
b. was created by god fully formed as we see it today
c. came about by another process we don't know about yet
 
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