Are you an atheist or agnostic?

  • Thread starter Thread starter iArtist
  • Start date Start date
I

iArtist

There are a few religious threads bouncing about the forum and I thought it might be nice for atheists and agnostics to express their view on the meaning of life.

My belief system rejects all religions as there are LOTS of Gods so who to choose? And as someone once said:

"The only difference between a Christian and an Atheist is that the atheist believes in one less God than a Christian."

A Christian rejects all Gods other than their God, so really they can't criticise an atheist for applying the same amount of discretion but extending it a tad.

I though am not an atheist.

I have my own belief system which recognises something magical that we don't understand, but I do not give it form, shape or number. It could be one or one of many. The limits of its/their power is unknown and so on.

I thus believe I suppose in the possibility of a something else and my experience of life supports that belief.

So, what is your belief or lack of belief system outside of religion?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: PI Guy
Agnostic I honestly don't know if there's a god or gods but the probabilities of anyone else knowing are so huge as to be effectively zero. IE I don't think anyone else knows either.

Religion is evil! (small e)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • Like
Reactions: iArtist
Upvote 0
Much to busy living to worry about what might or not might be.

One has to live with uncertainty.So fence sitter supreme here.:)

Earl
 
  • Like
Reactions: iArtist
Upvote 0
I wonder what religious folk make of something like this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/us_and_canada/10321466.stm

It will indeed!

Might help people to add some text here to ensure they follow the link
(not everyone does)

from source above:

"
A 62ft (19m) tall statue of Jesus outside a church in the US state of Ohio has burned down after being struck by lightning.
The frame is all that remains of the wood, polystyrene and glass fibre statue, which was hit on Monday night.
It had stood at the non-denominational Solid Rock Church in Monroe since 2004, and had been dubbed the Touchdown Jesus and the Quicksand Jesus."
 
Upvote 0
Agnostic I honestly don't know if there's a god or gods but the probabilities of anyone else knowing are so huge as to be effectively zero. IE I don't think anyone else knows either.

Religion is evil! (small e)
Atheist, there are no gods.

And I see religion as a bad thing in the world.
Religion is fundamentally not a bad or evil thing, what is bad or evil are the humans that run religion. Or stand up and state that they are ones we/people should follow. Stopping all forms of decent or objections to their way the religion should be interpreted.

There are many things within the Bible, Koran, Scriptures that show a wonderful way for a human to live their life.

But as with all organised ideas they begun to be controlled by one persons or a committees idea of what the holy scrptures for that religion really meant.

Look at the Roman Catholic church, are all their members strict Homophobes? Are they all misogynist? No marrige for preists, when I think there did marry originally!!?? Women priests, I believe there is some very strong evidence of woman preachers at the time of Jesus.

The men of Rome just sat down one day and erased some pretty important stuff, just because it suited them!!

Anyway, organised religions, and beliefs should be separated...

Does god exist? Does god play dice?
 
Upvote 0
agnostic; if I see it I will believe it. Science can explain why we are all here. As above my belief is religion is the cause of all the worlds conflicts, not just now but historically also.
 
Upvote 0
I don't have to prove anything, it is you that made the statement...back it up with fact!!!

You don't see the irony in what you just said?

The burden of proof is always on the person who makes the absurd claim.

If I told you that I kept a small pet dinosaur at home, and that it played with my dogs, it would be up to me to prove it. It's an absurd notion.

Equally absurd is the notion that a god or gods exist. As such, anyone claiming this must prove it.

In the absence of such proof, it is reasonable for you to assume that I'm lying about my pet dinosaur, and for me to assume that you are wrong about your gods.
 
Upvote 0
Surely the absurd statement was made by you?

I never said god exists.

I couldn't care less if there is a god or committee or group of alien druggies all just having a laugh!!

If someone previous to you stated that God is alive and well and living in Croydon I would have asked them to prove it.

That's in someways what I was trying to say earlier, whether there is a God or not, believer or non-believer part of the problem is separating a set of beliefs/religion from the people who run it.

I wonder what happens to atheist if Haven does exist?

Do they really get sent off to "a place of everlasting shame and contempt"..weeping for eternity?

Is it worth believeing just to save you own skin as God is all forgiving?

Anyway head starting to hurt now!! :)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Ok, I'll prove it. But first you have to prove to me that between the Earth and Mars there isn't a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit.

Ahhh, Bertrand Russell's classic riposte.

Atheist by the way, until proven otherwise.
 
Upvote 0
Thing is this

Science hasn't yet been able to prove life started spontaneously any more than religious folk can prove that it did not.

Quite fabulous and long may it continue.
 
Upvote 0
Thing is this

Science hasn't yet been able to prove life started spontaneously any more than religious folk can prove that it did not.

Quite fabulous and long may it continue.

Science can't prove anything 100%, however they can prove 'beyond reasonable doubt'. For instance, they've proven that life can spontaneously start but until someone turns up with a video recording from 13.75 billion years ago then we'll never be able to prove it.

Unfortunately this is read by some folk as "PAH! You can't prove nuffin', so a big sky fairy must've done it" etc.
 
Upvote 0
Science hasn't yet been able to prove life started spontaneously any more than religious folk can prove that it did not.

Not only can science never prove that, even if it could, it still wouldn't matter - people who need a god will argue that their god must have made the universe.
 
Upvote 0
Not only can science never prove that, even if it could, it still wouldn't matter - people who need a god will argue that their god must have made the universe.

Why does God have to have made the universe?
 
Upvote 0
Honestly, I think there is some form of intelligent design involved, but only in the beginning of the universe. I think the universe was designed to be self-reliant and self-perpetuating, which is why natural selection exists, why stars/galaxies form and why you never see any means of wondrous intervention.

I just find it far too difficult to believe that this universe came out of nowhere with the complexity it has. Elements exist, quantum physics exist, incredibly complex living beings exist, the laws of physics exist and time itself exists. They must have been designed by something in my opinion.

It shouldn't be about proving that god doesn't exist. it should be about coming up with theories (as outlandish as they may be) to explain the origin of the universe, its infinite complexity, and how all of the laws and rules simply seem to 'work'. In my opinion, at this stage, intelligent design is more of a reasonable explanation than saying the universe appeared out of thin air.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sirearl
Upvote 0
Honestly, I think there is some form of intelligent design involved, but only in the beginning of the universe. I think the universe was designed to be self-reliant and self-perpetuating, which is why natural selection exists, why stars/galaxies form and why you never see any means of wondrous intervention.

I just find it far too difficult to believe that this universe came out of nowhere with the complexity it has. Elements exist, quantum physics exist, incredibly complex living beings exist, the laws of physics exist and time itself exists. They must have been designed by something in my opinion.

It shouldn't be about proving that god doesn't exist. it should be about coming up with theories (as outlandish as they may be) to explain the origin of the universe, its infinite complexity, and how all of the laws and rules simply seem to 'work'. In my opinion, at this stage, intelligent design is more of a reasonable explanation than saying the universe appeared out of thin air.

There's a really big flaw with your thesis.

So the universe is far too complex to have arisen without the intervention of a designer. Ok. But how did the designer arise in the first place?
 
Upvote 0
There's a really big flaw with your thesis.

So the universe is far too complex to have arisen without the intervention of a designer. Ok. But how did the designer arise in the first place?

Obviously from a giant bang in space :rolleyes:


And if not, why not? If we can arise from nowt then so can the giant head!


..........
;)
 
Upvote 0
Obviously from a giant bang in space :rolleyes:

The big bang is just the current prevailing theory. It fits the data better than anything else we've come up with, that's all. It isn't fact, and could be replaced tomorrow if a model which fits the data better is dreamt up.

Nor does the big bang explain why the universe exists in the first place.

But this doesn't mean that we need to invent a creator; this creates more questions than it answers.
 
Upvote 0
another thread that will run and run. Godwin will be along at about post #129 I reckon.

Coming from a mixed race mixed religion culture and being around closely most religions of the world its all about having something to believe in, someone to comfort you, someone to be there when the going gets tough, someone to make you smile. Ahh the Church of UKBF, all bow to the altar of UKBF
 
Upvote 0
History does not record anywhere at any time a religion that has any rational basis. Religion is a crutch for people not strong enough to stand up to the unknown without help. But, like dandruff, most people do have a religion and spend time and money on it and seem to derive considerable pleasure from fiddling with it. [Robert Heinlein, Notebooks of Lazarus Long]
 
Upvote 0
"LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with Jesus Christ."

The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks
one of his new students to stand.

"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes, sir."

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God's good."

"Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a
moment.

"Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can
cure him. You can do it. Would you help them? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good...!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could...
in fact most of us would if we could...God doesn't."

[No answer.]

"He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer even
though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

[No answer]

The elderly man is sympathetic. "No, you can't, can you?"

He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to
relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones.

"Let's start again, young fella."

"Is God good?"

"Er... Yes."

"Is Satan good?"

"No."

"Where does Satan come from?"

The student falters.

"From... God..."

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?"

The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking, student audience.

"I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester, ladies and gentlemen."
He turns back to the Christian.

"Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"

"Yes."

"Who created evil?

[No answer]

"Is there sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness. All the
terrible things - do they exist in this world?"

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"Who created them?"

[No answer]

The professor suddenly shouts at his student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!"

The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God created all evil, didn't He, son?"

[No answer]

The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails.

Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an
aging panther. The class is mesmerized.

"Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all
evil throughout all time?"

The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"

[No answer]

"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?"

[Pause]

"Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers,

"Is God good?"

[No answer]

"Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I do."

The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses you
use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you?"

"No, sir. I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir. I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus...in
fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"

[No answer]

"Answer me, please."

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"You're AFRAID... you haven't?"

"No, sir."

"Yet you still believe in him?"

"...yes..."

"That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the underling.

"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol,
science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is
your God now?"

[The student doesn't answer]

"Sit down, please."

The Christian sits...Defeated.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PI Guy
Upvote 0
Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?"

The professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Christian in the vanguard!
Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."

The Christian looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are
making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies. "There's heat."

"Is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No, sir, there isn't."

The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very cold.

The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even more heat,
super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but we don't
have anything called 'cold'. We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no
heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as
cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 - You see, sir, cold
is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure
cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy. Cold is
not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it."

Silence. A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.

"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"

"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are
you getting at...?" (the professor starting to be impatient)

"So you say there is such a thing as darkness?"

"Yes..."

"You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of
something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing
light but if you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called
darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In
reality, Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness
darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness,
professor?"

Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him.

This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your
point is, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start
with and so your conclusion must be in error...."

The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!""

"Sir, may I explain what I mean?"

The class is all ears.

"Explain... oh, explain..." The professor makes an admirable effort to
regain control. Suddenly he is affability itself. He waves his hand to
silence the class, for the student to continue.

"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains. "That
for example there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad God.
You are viewing the concept of God as something finite, something we can
measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It uses electricity
and magnetism but has never seen, much less fully understood them.
To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing.
Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it."

The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbour who has been reading it.
"Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor.

Is there such a thing as immorality?"

"Of course there is, now look..."

"Wrong again, sir. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality.
Is there such thing as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice.
Is there such a thing as evil?" The Christian pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?"

The professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is
temporarily speechless.

The Christian continues. "If there is evil in the world, professor, and we
all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be accomplishing a work
through the agency of evil. What is that work, God is accomplishing?
The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of our own free will, choose good over evil."

The professor bridles. "As a philosophical scientist, I don't view this
matter as having anything to do with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely
do not recognize the concept of God or any other theological factor as being
part of the world equation because God is not observable."

"I would have thought that the absence of God's moral code in this world is
probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Christian replies.

"Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me, professor.

Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes,
of course I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"

The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a
silent, stony stare.

"Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process of evolution at work
and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going endeavor, are you not
teaching your opinion, sir?

Are you now not a scientist, but a priest?"

"I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our philosophical discussion.
Now, have you quite finished?" the professor hisses.

"So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?"

"I believe in what is - that's science!"

"Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's faces splits into a grin. "Sir, you rightly
state that science is the study of observed phenomena. Science too is a
premise which is flawed..."

"SCIENCE IS FLAWED..?" the professor splutters.

The class is in uproar.

The Christian remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To
continue the point you were making earlier to the other student, may I give
you an example of what I mean?"

The professor wisely keeps silent.

The Christian looks around the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has
ever seen the professor's brain?"

The class breaks out in laughter.

The Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor.

"Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's brain... felt the
professor's brain, touched or smelt the professor's brain?"

No one appears to have done so.

The Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any
sensory perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to
the rules of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE
that the professor has no brain."

The class is in chaos.

The Christian sits...Because that is what a chair is for.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PI Guy
Upvote 0
There's a really big flaw with your thesis.

So the universe is far too complex to have arisen without the intervention of a designer. Ok. But how did the designer arise in the first place?

Yup. Honestly I don't have a clue about that. All I know is that some form of intelligent design seems more realistic than such infinite complexity arising from a massive explosion out of thin air. Where did the big bang come from and how did it suddenly spawn such specific particles, forces and rules of physics? They're all just theories.

The universe is ridiculously complex and on the quantum level it's like nothing we know in the real world, so I'd never consider anything too unlikely.
 
Upvote 0
Atheism is rationally ridiculous. The most anyone can claim about the non-existence of God is agnosticism — to say you don't know.

But as soon as one takes the atheist's viewpoint, he/she opens him/herself and his/her philosophical system to a dilemma.

No finite being can say there is no God, for outside the limits of his knowledge God may exist. To be an atheist one must claim to know everything.

Of course this is one of the attributes that only God processes.
Therefore, the only way one can prove God doesn't exist is to be God which is rationally ridiculous.
 
Upvote 0
Of course this is one of the attributes that only God processes.

Speaking of ridiculous, you should consider embarrassingly ludicrous statements like the above. You slate the position of an atheist as logically flawed, then write utter drivel assuming the existence of God as a matter of fact.

Your own delusions aside, like many religious sorts you seem to think it is for others to disprove your Gods existence. The kindest thing I can say is that your God should remain a personal one, do not inflict it on the sound of mind.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Latest Articles