Am I getting sacked!?

[Dannydee]

Hi there,

I am new here, and I'm not only here to present the following query, as I intend to launch an eCommerce business within weeks. But I have a sudden problem that needs addressing.

I'll cut it short, don't wanna waste anyone's time..

I've worked for a utility company here in Northern Ireland for over 3 years. I've had a good clean record of service with no complaints no trouble no attendance issues.

Two weeks ago I regretfully called a customer a f*****g cheeky b**ch. I did think I'd muted it but sadly not. There were no problems with the customer in fact we got on brilliantly until the end of the call when she proceeded to undermine and say derogatory things about my job and how she can't imagine doing it and it must be awful for me etc.

Normally I'd make a joke with the customer myself about it but this customer kept driving the knife in and by the end of her loose lipped tirade I was offended, so i said what I said and I got caught by the cajones.

So a complaint was made, and since then I've been taken off the phones and helping the new customer service team in our office.

It's been 2 full weeks from me calling a customer a cheeky b**ch and I'm still employed there yet no word as yet from HR or otherwise.

My TL and my manager don't know anything new, and it's technically out of all our hands as it's someone neutral doing the investigation and therefore nobody could influence it anyways.

I practically delegated myself to floorwalking next week in support for the new team. My TL just nodded and agreed with my suggestion - he's pretty easy-going and laid-back in general, but a very decent guy and the best TL I've had there, I should add. Goes out of his way to have your back.

I had hoped to know the verdict by now, yet I was informed today that investigations can take months.... Well I don't like that thought. I don't want to sit around in limbo for ages only to be dismissed in the end regardless. I would like to stay working there though, truth be told.

I'm at a crossroads of sorts. Either I wait it out and see what happens which will be either a dismissal or not, or apply for other jobs and hand in my notice when I get one, which in turn wouldn't help the ongoing investigation, screwing up any credibility I have with them.

However..

-----> If I do wait it out and it turns to worst case scenario, I've had an idea. I'm going to make a request along the lines of being granted a grace period for me to find a new job. I think such a request would be reasonable on the grounds that I've had 3 years of service at the company with no mistakes, complaints or incidents, and brilliant attendance. Along with the fact that I've held my hands up willing to face the consequences, and patiently waited it out whilst they did the investigation.

Is negotiation of a grace period after dismissal a thing? Reasonable request? Good idea?

Orrrrrrrr, is there anything else that goes in my favour regarding the above, that I can use to secure my continuation of employment?

I'd super appreciate help, guidance, tips on what to do in this situation. Most of all I'd love to hear assurance that my whole life won't come crashing down because of one mistake.

**Take note, that I do realise the seriousness of the situation, I'm not looking special treatment, and I'll take whatever my punishment is like a man**

 

[obscure]

It's going to depend entirely on the outcome of the investigation. You may get a warning/written warning, you may get sacked (with contractual/statutory notice) or, if they feel the issue is serious enough, instant dismissal for gross misconduct.

With option two you will already have a grace period - your notice period.
With option three they have decided that you need to be removed immediately, so it is very unlikely they will then allow you to hang around a bit longer.

 

[Dannydee]

It's going to depend entirely on the outcome of the investigation. You may get a warning/written warning, you may get sacked (with contractual/statutory notice) or, if they feel the issue is serious enough, instant dismissal for gross misconduct.

With option two you will already have a grace period - your notice period.
With option three they have decided that you need to be removed immediately, so it is very unlikely they will then allow you to hang around a bit longer.

Hi Obs,

Sorry if i missed something but 1,2 and 3 are all within not only my question but your answer. I don't know how you felt you answered and I'm in fact offended that you would assume I'd have a lack of intellect regarding the question/s.

I'm letting go at this point, I ain't gunna argue,

Danny

 

[Dannydee]

It's going to depend entirely on the outcome of the investigation. You may get a warning/written warning, you may get sacked (with contractual/statutory notice) or, if they feel the issue is serious enough, instant dismissal for gross misconduct.

With option two you will already have a grace period - your notice period.
With option three they have decided that you need to be removed immediately, so it is very unlikely they will then allow you to hang around a bit longer.

I'm confused... Surely if it was serious enough I'd be gone already? Otherwise, why TF would they continue to pay me and train me, and basically have me hanging around?

Am I am in complete limbo or do I have any official grounds for reply?

 

[Dannydee]

With option two you will already have a grace period - your notice period..

Let's say the worst happens. Would it be out of the ordinary for me to ask for a grace period? I mean at that point I have nothing to lose, so why the **** not.

 

[JeffreyMills]

I'm confused... Surely if it was serious enough I'd be gone already? Otherwise, why TF would they continue to pay me and train me, and basically have me hanging around?

Am I am in complete limbo or do I have any official grounds for reply?

No you would not be “gone already”. They are following the company disciplinary policy and the ACAS code of conduct.

Your official grounds for reply comes as part of an investigation process, when you are interviewed, and at a hearing (if it goes to that stage)

 

[JeffreyMills]

Let's say the worst happens. Would it be out of the ordinary for me to ask for a grace period? I mean at that point I have nothing to lose, so why the **** not.

It is not reasonable and it is a bad idea. No employer would agree to such a thing, as it is a contradiction.

Summary dismissal for gross misconduct means that the employee has breached the employment contract so severely they cannot remain employed. That is why contractual notice isn’t given, and the termination is effective immediately.

It would therefore be a nonsense for an employer to say “your behaviour was so bad you can’t work here, you are dismissed with immediate effect, but you can still work here for a bit”

As a request, not totally out of the ordinary though, I have had to explain this to staff who have been dismissed who just won’t accept that they’re sacked. They’re the ones who have to be escorted from the building.

 

[tony84]

Have you had your own disciplinary meeting?

I would start working on your defence:
1) How long you have been there without issue.
2) How you have presumably had a promotion (some sort of supervisor)?
3) How you hare actually trusted with floor walking and in turn escalated phone calls - confirming that this situation is a one off.
4) That the customer was not just shouting and swearing but people personally offensive and you are surprised the customers account has not been reviewed...Depends how much you want to push it.
5) Any mitigating factors outside of work? It sounds like you have owned up and do not want to make excuses so this might not be a route you want to go down.
6) You have admitted it straight away.

Personally, I would not say you are going to get sacked, but it is probably a possibility. I am surprised it is taking so long from a HR perspective as it is pretty cut and dry you did something, you were caught and you admitted it.

I would go in to any disciplinary meeting and fight your corner personally. If your managers are on side, I would ask them if you could put in a good word with HR for you. I had a disciplinary when I worked in a call centre for a bank and my manager was probably the deciding factor on me getting fired or not.

 

[MBE2017]

Fair advice given above, I would only add you openly admit the client wound you up at length and having thought about it you realise you need additional training on such issues and can they help?

It is probably different these days, but 30 years ago I used to train such personnel in an area for a bank where literally every call had really abusive callers. I was amazed none of the staff had any training in how to deal with such people, and as such moral was very low and staff went on constant leave due to stress and depression.

I taught these operators they were people, who were there to work but not be insulted. The first moment anyone started to swear or be discourteous, I instructed them to pull the client up, and offer two options. They were to ask for an apology or if not forthcoming to instruct the caller only to call back when they were ready to do so.

The whole job changed from then on, they still had a few obnoxious callers, but they always regained control of the call.

 

[JeffreyMills]

There was no mention of the customer shouting or swearing - it seems the customer offended him by saying his job must be awful and being patronising about his choice of work. He then swore twice F—-ing cheeky B——.
They will likely have a recording of the conversation. I’d be wary of making any misleading statements about the customer’s words or behaviour. Were they easily disproved, by listening to a recording any credibility would be out the window.

 

[obscure]

Let's say the worst happens. Would it be out of the ordinary for me to ask for a grace period? I mean at that point I have nothing to lose, so why the **** not.

Yes it would be out of the ordinary because you already have a grace period - that is what a notice period is.
Also if you are sacked it is most likely that, unless you have some specialist knowledge that needs a hand-over period, you would be asked to leave immediately and paid in lieu of notice.

 

[MBE2017]

There was no mention of the customer shouting or swearing - it seems the customer offended him by saying his job must be awful and being patronising about his choice of work. He then swore twice F—-ing cheeky B——.
They will likely have a recording of the conversation. I’d be wary of making any misleading statements about the customer’s words or behaviour. Were they easily disproved, by listening to a recording any credibility would be out the window.

Totally agree, which is why I never said any of that happened on this call.

 

[JeffreyMills]

Tony84 at point 4 suggested that the customer swore.

 

[Dannydee]

No you would not be “gone already”. They are following the company disciplinary policy and the ACAS code of conduct.

Your official grounds for reply comes as part of an investigation process, when you are interviewed, and at a hearing (if it goes to that stage)

It's pretty much guaranteed that I'll have an interview/hearing of sorts, once the investigation is completed. And I'll be asked to bring another staff member in with me as a witness to whatever is said or done. This is how it's happened before in my place.

A friend from work has told me not to worry, that he's been the witness in similar circumstances before, where the offence - he says - was worse than mine, and the staff member kept their job.

I'm still concerned of course.

 

[Dannydee]

Have you had your own disciplinary meeting?

I would start working on your defence:
1) How long you have been there without issue.
2) How you have presumably had a promotion (some sort of supervisor)?
3) How you hare actually trusted with floor walking and in turn escalated phone calls - confirming that this situation is a one off.
4) That the customer was not just shouting and swearing but people personally offensive and you are surprised the customers account has not been reviewed...Depends how much you want to push it.
5) Any mitigating factors outside of work? It sounds like you have owned up and do not want to make excuses so this might not be a route you want to go down.
6) You have admitted it straight away.

I haven't had a disciplinary meeting at the company, ever. I'll be taking on board all your advice though and absolutely fighting my corner. 1, 2, 3 and 6 are all things in my favour.

Personally, I would not say you are going to get sacked, but it is probably a possibility. I am surprised it is taking so long from a HR perspective as it is pretty cut and dry you did something, you were caught and you admitted it.

My TL said this also. It is black and white and it is all on a recorded call (to also respond to the query of it being recorded) and he told me that at other companies he's worked for it would have been sorted very quickly.

My TL also said last week that he doesn't personally think I'm going to be sacked.

I would go in to any disciplinary meeting and fight your corner personally. If your managers are on side, I would ask them if you could put in a good word with HR for you. I had a disciplinary when I worked in a call centre for a bank and my manager was probably the deciding factor on me getting fired or not.

My manager did tell me she would vouch for me. That my genuine remorse and holding my hands up to making a mistake all goes favourably for me.

 

[Dannydee]

Fair advice given above, I would only add you openly admit the client wound you up at length and having thought about it you realise you need additional training on such issues and can they help?

I think this could perhaps be used in my defence if I feel it's going to go badly.

 

[Dannydee]

There was no mention of the customer shouting or swearing - it seems the customer offended him by saying his job must be awful and being patronising about his choice of work. He then swore twice F—-ing cheeky B——.
They will likely have a recording of the conversation. I’d be wary of making any misleading statements about the customer’s words or behaviour. Were they easily disproved, by listening to a recording any credibility would be out the window.

Nothing I can do here as it's all clear as day on a recorded call. Which I haven't actually listened back to. I'm not entirely sure if I'll be made to listen at a hearing.

 

[Dannydee]

Yes it would be out of the ordinary because you already have a grace period - that is what a notice period is.
Also if you are sacked it is most likely that, unless you have some specialist knowledge that needs a hand-over period, you would be asked to leave immediately and paid in lieu of notice.

So what if I was to pre-empt my dismissal and rather than patiently wait for it I apply for other jobs and hand in my own notice? How would that go down?

 

[obscure]

I can't read minds or see the future so I have no way of knowing how it would go down. You might resign when they were only going to give you a slap on the wrist or you may stay only for them to sack you. No one here can tell you which way your employer will lean.

 

[Dannydee]

I can't read minds or see the future so I have no way of knowing how it would go down. You might resign when they were only going to give you a slap on the wrist or you may stay only for them to sack you. No one here can tell you which way your employer will lean.

Haha that's spot-on and looking at it like this I'd be screwed either way.. Damned if I do, damned if I don't.

 

[Mr D]

So what if I was to pre-empt my dismissal and rather than patiently wait for it I apply for other jobs and hand in my own notice? How would that go down?

Probably not make a difference to them.
People presumably also leave for other reasons than being under investigation.

 

[Dannydee]

Probably not make a difference to them.
People presumably also leave for other reasons than being under investigation.

Yeah but not having ever been in this scenario before I worry that by handing in a notice at this point in time would look bad for me, and as a result I'd get dealt a bad hand whether that's a dismissal before my notice period is up, or a negative reference.

Aside from what may or may not happen, there's literally nothing for me to do in work now. I asked my TL this morning what to do - he shrugged his shoulders and said I've got nothing for you to do. I said so what WILL I do then? And he told me I could just sit at my desk and play around on the internet.

So that's my current employment status - sitting at my desk messing around online learning myself stuff that's completely unrelated to work, and getting paid for it.

 

[itsnathanhere]

Hi Danny, PMed you.

 

[Mr D]

Yeah but not having ever been in this scenario before I worry that by handing in a notice at this point in time would look bad for me, and as a result I'd get dealt a bad hand whether that's a dismissal before my notice period is up, or a negative reference.

Aside from what may or may not happen, there's literally nothing for me to do in work now. I asked my TL this morning what to do - he shrugged his shoulders and said I've got nothing for you to do. I said so what WILL I do then? And he told me I could just sit at my desk and play around on the internet.

So that's my current employment status - sitting at my desk messing around online learning myself stuff that's completely unrelated to work, and getting paid for it.

If going to give a bad reference they will no matter what you do.

It's less hassle for employers and prevents future problems if they do not give a bad reference.
Simply start date end date and fact you worked for them.

Did once have a manager who gave bad references, horrible woman who did not care about legalities and kept me running around to solve problems she created, she stopped giving bad references after she gave just the one for me.
Something about legal action against the board...

 

[Nico Albrecht]

Which call centre is it in NI? Also your behavior with the customer qualifies for miss gross conduct. On a lucky day you will get a final written warning. Also you mentioned you run or start an eCommerce business most contracts will have a clause preventing you from doing other work etc... check your contract. You gave them now 2 reasons. After all damage is done and it is a call centre environment so they looking at your numbers versus hiring a new person. Most TL and Managers have very little power and wouldn't really make a difference. They just go by their policies. Get out of the call centre business is my advise.

 

[Dannydee]

If going to give a bad reference they will no matter what you do.

It's less hassle for employers and prevents future problems if they do not give a bad reference.
Simply start date end date and fact you worked for them.

Did once have a manager who gave bad references, horrible woman who did not care about legalities and kept me running around to solve problems she created, she stopped giving bad references after she gave just the one for me.
Something about legal action against the board...

I don't see any reason why I should be or would be given a bad reference. I have been a good employee with 1 mistake. I can't foresee any of my managers/TLs past or present at this company doing so based on 1 mistake.

 

[Dannydee]

Which call centre is it in NI? Also your behavior with the customer qualifies for miss gross conduct. On a lucky day you will get a final written warning.

It's not a typical chicken-house call centre it's a large corporation with their own in-house sales and retention's agents. I know my mistake amounts to gross misconduct and as such is severe enough to warrant a dismissal, I'm just hopeful to not be ditched over one mistake in 3 years.

Today we done sales training and there were multiple aspects within the training that I believe I can use to my advantage when it comes to fighting my corner - areas where we think we can improve on or need more training with etc. We were given a workbook from the training to complete as we wish. Normally most wouldn't bother, but on this occasion it's going to benefit me because I'll have all my thoughts on not only my actions but what I have done, and am prepared to do to rectify the situation, written down and ready to roll.

Also you mentioned you run or start an eCommerce business most contracts will have a clause preventing you from doing other work etc... check your contract. You gave them now 2 reasons. After all damage is done and it is a call centre environment so they looking at your numbers versus hiring a new person. Most TL and Managers have very little power and wouldn't really make a difference. They just go by their policies. Get out of the call centre business is my advise.

I will have look over my contract but I'm 99% sure that we can do what we want outside work that doesn't pose a conflict of interest with the company. Plus I have spoken with TLs about my future plan to do business and none have gave me anything other than intrigue and encouragement.

 

[Mr D]

I don't see any reason why I should be or would be given a bad reference. I have been a good employee with 1 mistake. I can't foresee any of my managers/TLs past or present at this company doing so based on 1 mistake.

For some companies gross misconduct would work.

Your managers / TLs may not end up being the ones writing reference. How does HR feel about you?

 

[JeffreyMills]

They would be within their rights and entirely truthful to state that you resigned whilst under disciplinary investigation.

 

[Dannydee]

HR doesn't even know me. They are based in our Dublin office (I'm in our Belfast office) so I'd fail to recognise how they could possibly write a reference for someone they literally only know on paper.

Anyways, today I was back doing some phone work. My manager approved that I was assigned the task of calling customers to have certain details clarified regarding their brand new accounts. Which I see as a step in the right direction.

I'm feeling less and less anxious that I'm actually going to be fired. I think I'm going to be okay.

 

[Mr D]

HR doesn't even know me. They are based in our Dublin office (I'm in our Belfast office) so I'd fail to recognise how they could possibly write a reference for someone they literally only know on paper.

Anyways, today I was back doing some phone work. My manager approved that I was assigned the task of calling customers to have certain details clarified regarding their brand new accounts. Which I see as a step in the right direction.

I'm feeling less and less anxious that I'm actually going to be fired. I think I'm going to be okay.

Why would someone have to know you to write a reference?
Somewhere there will be information about you. Start date, finish date after you finish. Whatever reports anyone has written about you. Do you ever have appraisal reports?

HR in a number of my past employers would be the ones doing all references. And all the info needed would be available to them.
In one company I worked at for almost 2 years I was based out of Southampton office and my line manager was in Lincoln. I never met him, I never got that far south.
He talked to me on the phone a couple of times more than HR.

 

[Dannydee]

Today I was approached by the TL who is conducting the investigation, who wanted to brief me about his role in the incident and request that I think about my response, and meet with him in a private room.

He had with him another neutral party to witness our meeting. He explained what he had done so far and asked would I like to say anything about it. I gave him my version of the incident, that the customer had offended me and I responded by swearing as I did, and that I thought the phone was on mute. I said that although I thought it was on mute, that it was no excuse and it was totally inappropriate to respond in the way I did. I added that this has been the biggest lesson in professionalism, and no matter what the outcome is, whether I keep my job or it's an outright dismissal, it has certainly changed everything about the way I'll be conducting myself now and in the future.

He now has done his bit. I know the guy, he's a decent bloke, knows I've been there quite a while without any trouble, and I'm confident he'll give HR a recommendation that doesn't warrant dismissal.

Now I continue to wait.

 

[Dannydee]

Walked into work today and my manager had approved me to go back on the phones selling to and retaining customers. HR still has to make a final decision but it's clearly a step in the right direction.

Am I right and this does indeed look good for me?

 

[Higgsy]

Nothing is guaranteed until your investigation outcome is made. However, I’d have thought the fact you’re on the phones again is likely to be positive.

 

[TotalWebSolutions]

It does sound like a positive, the fact your duties have been restored (for now at least). Is there a possibility of getting a call from this customer again? If so have you talked with your TL about how to handle any potential backlash from the customer? Just curious.

 

[Steven001]

Not sure how I'd even answer a question like this as it's really down to the senior staff to decide whether to keep you on and depending on your relationship with them and how they operate as individuals/their personality Vs. company policy.

If you've worked hard and have been an asset to the company I'd be expecting a written warning of some kind or perhaps the demotion you are experiencing now is the punishment. Also the fact that you weren't immediately suspended pending an investigation is a sign that they probably will keep you on.

That being said it would be good advice to look for another job and get one lined up quick on the QT, just in case all does go to hell.

I wish you luck.

 

[parkingandsecurity]

Well done on scraping by. Remember though for now at least you are under extra scrutiny on every phone call. make sure you handle them as if the bosses are listening (they may well be) and like your job depends on it.

 

[Mr D]

Today I was approached by the TL who is conducting the investigation, who wanted to brief me about his role in the incident and request that I think about my response, and meet with him in a private room.

He had with him another neutral party to witness our meeting. He explained what he had done so far and asked would I like to say anything about it. I gave him my version of the incident, that the customer had offended me and I responded by swearing as I did, and that I thought the phone was on mute. I said that although I thought it was on mute, that it was no excuse and it was totally inappropriate to respond in the way I did. I added that this has been the biggest lesson in professionalism, and no matter what the outcome is, whether I keep my job or it's an outright dismissal, it has certainly changed everything about the way I'll be conducting myself now and in the future.

He now has done his bit. I know the guy, he's a decent bloke, knows I've been there quite a while without any trouble, and I'm confident he'll give HR a recommendation that doesn't warrant dismissal.

Now I continue to wait.

I'd have expected to be told in advance when the meeting was to take place and an invite to take own observer / neutral person in with you.
Maybe I'm old fashioned.

 

[Maria Vizcarra]

I don't see any reason why I should be or would be given a bad reference. I have been a good employee with 1 mistake. I can't foresee any of my managers/TLs past or present at this company doing so based on 1 mistake.

speaking of reference... I found this post, and I'm really looking for an online job that would help me earn more extra money... but I'm kind of thinking if I should trust it..

 

[Maria Vizcarra]

would it be possible that I can trust the links in websites? I checked it, the website looks new though.. the link it offered about online jobs look legit though,.. can someone help?