Adwords consultant prices ?
- Thread starter bigspender
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Fee does not necessarily relate to consultant's time.
My point goes back to Chris's post. He seems to think everyone should be paid average salary. My point is that it doesn't matter what the consultant charges, what hours he works, how many links he builds, or whatever other spurious measure people quote here - what matters is the ROI.
And someone with 10,000 hours experience will, in most cases, give a better return than someone with zero hours experience. (with the exception of Government departments where ROI goes down with experience
)And Chris is not taking into account the cost of that 10,000 hours of experience (x hours, whatever experience you may have).
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mediaguy35
Seeing as all SEO's/PPC guys have this claim that their the best in the world, then er, yeah - you need to back it up. But how you going to do that, and quoting some SERP positions isn't proof. You need to go deeper than that before someone hands over their cash. So some PPC dude gets lucky with the keywords the prospect gives them, well, seems to me the prospect has just done the job of an PPC agent by choosing the correct keywords..... darn, he just saved himself a fee
The number of times Ive been asked what keywords I want for a campaign, I could have killed them, as I know they'll make some pathetic call to action that copies what others have got/are doing, using my research effort too, that I might as well do it myself.
From a 'management' viewpoint - do you really want a stranger to have access to your account and the spending of your cash, they could go wild with it and cost you thousands without you knowing, then you're screwed when Google bills you. There are security issues here people!
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I think I spot a straw man argument: "better than someone with zero experience = best in the world".
Are you suggesting that, if you had a burst pipe, it would be a waste of time hiring a plumber who isn't the best in the world? That it would be better to try to fix it yourself?
Meaning what? That choosing the right keywords is most of what makes PPC successful?
When I'm doing PPC setup, I ask clients if they have ideas for keywords.
That's because I don't think they're chumps. Instead I think they may be people who have looked at their market and come up with some insights.
Why wouldn't I want them to share those insights? Why would I treat them as worthless?
Steve
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Fee does not necessarily relate to consultant's time.
My point goes back to Chris's post. He seems to think everyone should be paid average salary. My point is that it doesn't matter what the consultant charges, what hours he works, howpeople quote here - what matters is the ROI.
And someone with 10,000 hours experience will, in most cases, give a better return than someone with zero hours experience. (with the exception of Government departments where ROI goes down with experience
And Chris is not taking into account the cost of that 10,000 hours of experience (x hours, whatever experience you may have).
Not quite what I ment, the op was asking what price ppc done by someone else
intellegent ppc stated £100 is one hour of his pay so not worth doing
i was trying to point out that others maybe just as experienced may base the earnings more on the line of the uk average or even above and still be able to give 4 or 5 hours time once a month working on his site, or maybe just advising them what to do themselves
My own thoughts of the members on this forum are that they are mainly relitivly small to medium companies who would be looking for some one to assist the without having much money to spend on the help rather than consultants on £800 per day
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I am going to tell you lot what I tell my clients.
SEO as a profession is dead.
Yes, that is correct! There is no longer a place for a profession that hides its tactics, refuses to report its methods and charges a monthly fee without explaining what they do. If you are speaking to an SEO consultant ask them to explain in detail what they will do to justify the fees, not many will tell you the truth and the truth is, shady inbound link building, often on privately owned blog networks, when you stop paying they remove the links.
There is an unfortunate middle here, SEO consultants that know their days are numbered and are trying to adapt, you can expect some half decent onsite effort here and a little outbound marketing but they are playing catch up, and while I wish them the best, they are not worth the fees.
What you are looking for is a rounded inbound marketing consultancy, a company that will get to know your business, its market, your competitors, someone who will research what your market expects from your site and then combines that with experienced expert advice on how to structure your user interface, your user experience and defines a holistic joined up customer journey that generates conversions. You need someone that can create, curate and promote your content and help you obtain genuine interest (With natural links) and align that interest to your wider sales and marketing strategies.
If you are a small business the chances are you cant afford it, you have a cheap wordpress site and are being conned by SEO consultants seeing no results paying out money for nothing.
What is the answer? To invest in your business and play with the big boys. If you cant sit in a plush office opposite the team (yes team) who will promote your business online, then spend the money on adwords.
This leads us onto adwords, it is a quick win and yes it is worth paying for, you might think you understand how to use it but the chances are you dont, not really! Take keywords....a keyword has intent, somebody interesting in apples for example might be searching for the difference between red and green apples this user is researching, suppliers of red apples this user is comparing, buy red apples online this user is ready to buy - research, comparison, buy this is a funnel of intent, this funnel might vary by industry and by company but in general it is the stages a user moves thorough to make a purchase, the content we create and the landing pages your ads are directed at should be aligned to the intent of the keyword - if you are buying keywords at the top of the funnel you need serious budget because visitors who are simply researching or comparing are not going to buy,it is an exercise of brand awareness, a small business needs to move further down the chain to keywords that have a higher chance to convert into revenue.
I could write about the various topics involved all day long, but the point is this! The fee you pay for adwords is for these expertise (which you can learn, but it will take time). The setup fee described here is the required time to conduct that research and to configure that account, and to be honest, I would charge far more, but as you might be able to tell, I run an agency and you get to sit in that office across the table from a team when you work with us, hence the increase in costs.
SEO as a profession is dead.
Yes, that is correct! There is no longer a place for a profession that hides its tactics, refuses to report its methods and charges a monthly fee without explaining what they do. If you are speaking to an SEO consultant ask them to explain in detail what they will do to justify the fees, not many will tell you the truth and the truth is, shady inbound link building, often on privately owned blog networks, when you stop paying they remove the links.
There is an unfortunate middle here, SEO consultants that know their days are numbered and are trying to adapt, you can expect some half decent onsite effort here and a little outbound marketing but they are playing catch up, and while I wish them the best, they are not worth the fees.
What you are looking for is a rounded inbound marketing consultancy, a company that will get to know your business, its market, your competitors, someone who will research what your market expects from your site and then combines that with experienced expert advice on how to structure your user interface, your user experience and defines a holistic joined up customer journey that generates conversions. You need someone that can create, curate and promote your content and help you obtain genuine interest (With natural links) and align that interest to your wider sales and marketing strategies.
If you are a small business the chances are you cant afford it, you have a cheap wordpress site and are being conned by SEO consultants seeing no results paying out money for nothing.
What is the answer? To invest in your business and play with the big boys. If you cant sit in a plush office opposite the team (yes team) who will promote your business online, then spend the money on adwords.
This leads us onto adwords, it is a quick win and yes it is worth paying for, you might think you understand how to use it but the chances are you dont, not really! Take keywords....a keyword has intent, somebody interesting in apples for example might be searching for the difference between red and green apples this user is researching, suppliers of red apples this user is comparing, buy red apples online this user is ready to buy - research, comparison, buy this is a funnel of intent, this funnel might vary by industry and by company but in general it is the stages a user moves thorough to make a purchase, the content we create and the landing pages your ads are directed at should be aligned to the intent of the keyword - if you are buying keywords at the top of the funnel you need serious budget because visitors who are simply researching or comparing are not going to buy,it is an exercise of brand awareness, a small business needs to move further down the chain to keywords that have a higher chance to convert into revenue.
I could write about the various topics involved all day long, but the point is this! The fee you pay for adwords is for these expertise (which you can learn, but it will take time). The setup fee described here is the required time to conduct that research and to configure that account, and to be honest, I would charge far more, but as you might be able to tell, I run an agency and you get to sit in that office across the table from a team when you work with us, hence the increase in costs.
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I have deleted a few posts. On this forum it is allowed to argue, dispute facts, and pull up other members on matter of facts and opinions. It is NOT allowed to call them liars or scammers. So whilst it is permissible to say that "there is no such thing as google offering secret data", as this is argument over fact or opinion. It is not permissible to call anyone saying this a liar.
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Been away from here for a long time. Reading this thread it's like I've never been away 
Lots of angry people calling each other liars. So counter productive.
d
Lots of angry people calling each other liars. So counter productive.d
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mediaguy35
Nope, as I would make it worse, but I am capable of wacking in a few words of copy into adwords, with little risk of problems. A plumber's training is totally different to PPC - you cant compare the two in the same light, since to fix a burst pipe requires real skill from qualified tradespeople, who are governed by a code from a professional body where standards are monitored and protection from Uk law, when something goes wrong.
I could set myself up as a PPC pro, sit behind a PC and insert whatever copy into 50 ads a time, and charge 5k for it - just need to be good at writing adverts, I don't need a paper qualification. Ok, I might not get 5 grand from everybody, but if it works 10 times a year, I just scored 50k! and no protection when I bugger up a campaign, just the client wouldn't use me again. I suppose if the job was that bad, they'll take me to court etc, but I'd just do a good enough job to ensure some sort of result. But clients want huge results, and it may not be possible to do this as so many same type of businesses all doing the same thing and competing with each other, so yup, tough to please everyone.
And Uk law says as long as you provide a service, the client must pay. So just need to get a minimum result to ensure payment via contract.
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I struggle to understand the relevance. You're comparing employee salary to someone who has taken the risk of going out on his own. The self employed has overheads* that an employee doesn't. He has to market himself. He has an office to maintain. Employers taxes. Perhaps 50% of his time would be non earning overhead. This has to be paid for somehow. Otherwise he may as well stay as an employee.
And if he stayed as an employee, you'd have to hire your own employee to do what he's doing, train them, wait for the 5 years until he's become an expert before you get the same level of skill. But of course once he's trained he'll leave** and set up on his own so he can earn more and doesn't have to put up with an unreasonable boss!
How much would that cost you? That makes £100/hour very reasonable doesn't it?
* Someone posted the costs associated with running an agency and it was something like £500 per day before any allowance for profit.
** And I read somewhere that the average employee stays in a job 18 months. Not enough time to become an expert (if you believe the 5 years to become an expert claims).
Ultimately the only measure is if you get a good ROI from your investment.
What keeps a small business small is they cannot tell the difference between investment and cost...
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There's also the cost of staying up-to-date with all the developments in Adwords.
Adwords is very different than the Adwords that existed back when I started doing it in 2006.
So the adwords manager has to keep up with the 50-100 changes that Google introduce each year. That means reading announcements, articles, attending webinars (usually outside UK office hours), buying and reading the latest books, buying courses.
So there's a cost - in time and money - of keeping up to date... a cost that can be spread over all clients.
If you employ a PPC person, you pay all that cost.
Another advantage of hiring a freelancer is that you get to benefit from the lessons they learn from other clients' accounts. If I test 10 ideas and 5 work - I can roll out those 5 things across all clients (where applicable).
And the 5 "failures" are spread over different clients - so that cost is shared.
Steve
Adwords is very different than the Adwords that existed back when I started doing it in 2006.
So the adwords manager has to keep up with the 50-100 changes that Google introduce each year. That means reading announcements, articles, attending webinars (usually outside UK office hours), buying and reading the latest books, buying courses.
So there's a cost - in time and money - of keeping up to date... a cost that can be spread over all clients.
If you employ a PPC person, you pay all that cost.
Another advantage of hiring a freelancer is that you get to benefit from the lessons they learn from other clients' accounts. If I test 10 ideas and 5 work - I can roll out those 5 things across all clients (where applicable).
And the 5 "failures" are spread over different clients - so that cost is shared.
Steve
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BTW, Redevo wrote something a few years ago about freelancer rates and how to compare them to employee costs:
https://www.redevolution.com/day-rates-explained/
Steve
https://www.redevolution.com/day-rates-explained/
Steve
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mediaguy35
No, if I was an employee, I'd both work and run a business part-time, so pull in a salary eg: £24k and 30k (from web biz). I say, work out who you're dealing with, learn to do most things yourself and its costs you little, except time and the mistakes - you'll learn from anyway. Cutting costs isn't difficult, and the charlatans I avoid, gives me a little victory each time.
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Adwords_Guru
Agree with this 100%
Chris Ashdown, why do you assume a Google Adwords professional's earnings has any relation to the UK's average wage? You wouldn't do the maths like that for a lawyer, doctor or banker.
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Because I have come across very good ones like Steve Gibson and many absolutely poor ones that have cost me quite a lot of money, so just have a way of putting work prices into a common denominater to try and judge value, even with top quality consultants the prices vary a lot so you do have to try some basic maths verses Quality required to assist you in selection. Which raises the question how do you find the good ones and if you do can you afford their fees
That said I would not normally go the Harley Street or Hire Slaughter & May as solicitors as a first choice i would go to a local doctor or solicitor who i would assume gives lower charges for mainly similar work, but with the option to go higher if the specialist expertise was required
That said I would not normally go the Harley Street or Hire Slaughter & May as solicitors as a first choice i would go to a local doctor or solicitor who i would assume gives lower charges for mainly similar work, but with the option to go higher if the specialist expertise was required
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i highly recommend ishop. Phil there set my adwords up from scratch as well as sorting out stuff for my google products, remarketing/retargeting work and i'm pleased. they charge by the hour and we agreed before hand amount of time to set up and ongoing maintenance work. now down to around an hour a month, so really low cost investment, but more than happy with their work. price is around £35 / hr
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mediaguy35
I think SEO/PPC is something can be done yourself, with saving of 'management fees', ofcourse, if people want to go that route because of some ego trip, that's fine, but we'll never use these unregulated, self-appointed expert and unjustified services, never, ever, ever.
There might be a market for the 'research keywords' part only - but as you wont see results of a campaign for at least a week/month while the PPC takes effect, and fees will be upfront, I can see a bee sting coming, and just too risky handing over a lump of cash, with no proof of results, especially since one biz will be different from the last, so nothing to compare.
So, the PPC industry must come down to proof of results before payment, the risk is too great otherwise and it won't be a low cost service either. So how does the PPC firm now measure/record what it does for the client, as there's no friggin way I'd allow a stranger access to my account. See, its an unworkable service as we see it, reliant on much risk.
I would want to see the keyword research upfront, then test it ourselves before handing over any payments. If any PPC firm has a problem with that, then we don't do business with them, same applies to SEO firms too, and Copywriters, who we've hired before and been ripped off by 'upfront fees' before they supplied the work, so we cant get anything started until the tools are passed to us - nice huh... the tools being sales letters, web copy, articles etc
Its too easy to get stuck with poor effort/results, while these guys do a runner with the cash.
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Agree there are lots of cowboys but the good adwords guys should save you money and make more sales at the same time, somethings are better farmed out others kept in-house, you just need to balance the work you can do yourself or with employees to what a dedicated professional can do, But the selection of the right person is the minefield that only about three months will be proven good or bad
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serpyre
At 8% of revenue (Amazon are 4%) for marketing PPC is 1.5% of revenue for both click costs and service provider fees. Now the problem is that most providers charge a 'perceived' benefit - say it costs you 5% of revenue then the provider is generating 330% increase in fees over what it should be - will you see a 330% increase in orders - not much chance of that. If you generate £100,000 revenue then you have £125/mth for PPC - let's say you allocate 50% to experience and 50% to costs are you going to find a 'true' service provider for £62.50/mth which equates to £26/hr with 2.4hrs of effort per month.
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If you're getting a seasoned pro for under £30/hour, then good on ya - that's a big win.
I'd think you'd be paying £50 to £100 per hour for small blocks of time or pushing down toward the £30 per hour mark as the relationship extended and the spend levels increased.
Then again, the output of someone who has done this 100 times is light years ahead of someone who's still putting processes in place, and are simply cutting their teeth on your site.
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IMO anyone who allows Google to 'optimise' their campaign may as well mail them an envelope of cash instead.
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The keyword analysis part requires experts consultation, rest steps such as campaign building, running ads, monitoring results can be performed with help of Google PPC tutorials.
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mediaguy35
@ intelligentppc
Here a guide, didn't read it all - but I skimmed it a bit and seems to cover the basics that's needed to get a campaign going.
http://www.marketingdonut.co.uk/mar...ng/get-started-with-pay-per-click-advertising
The guide Get started with pay-per-click advertising covers automatic bidding and how keywords work/show up in the ads created, Unique Selling Point (USP) etc - the very stuff some PPC agent will charge you for if you are a newbie. There's a host of info on this site alone, and likely many hundreds of others, so no need to hire expensive agents when its on the web as just proven.
Here a guide, didn't read it all - but I skimmed it a bit and seems to cover the basics that's needed to get a campaign going.
http://www.marketingdonut.co.uk/mar...ng/get-started-with-pay-per-click-advertising
The guide Get started with pay-per-click advertising covers automatic bidding and how keywords work/show up in the ads created, Unique Selling Point (USP) etc - the very stuff some PPC agent will charge you for if you are a newbie. There's a host of info on this site alone, and likely many hundreds of others, so no need to hire expensive agents when its on the web as just proven.
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This article is so vague to be almost pointless. Not to mention the bad advice about using automatic bidding. And the guy who wrote it offers PPC services - it's a guest article designed to get traffic to his PPC services website.
Surely small business owners would prefer a step-by-step guide to setting up their adwords campaign the correct way so that they don't have to waste hundreds of pounds testing things that are unlikely to work (that they may not know about)?
Surely small business owners would prefer a step-by-step guide to setting up their adwords campaign the correct way so that they don't have to waste hundreds of pounds testing things that are unlikely to work (that they may not know about)?
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mediaguy35
Yup, I know what it is and why he did it. It was merely an example to prove the mass of free info on the web, where one can DIY PPC. I think you know this.
Didn't you offer to sign me up to your PPC service on Wednesday....... so you did the exact same thing to justify your service right
ok, fine - but forums don't want that, as they aren't link dropping tools, sadly people spam them, and why we shut our forum down. You know, I joined 4 forums over the years and never, ever spammed them, nor became a full member just to take advantage of a paid link, see I like to give a bit of help now and then, I guess my breed is tough to find these days.
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I'm certainly not a spammer! Out of interest how do you make a living mediaguy?
By the way my point was that any 'free' info on the web is usually garbage. If you think you can DIY your PPC using the 3 yr old free Google tutorial videos then go ahead. Their free advice will include broad matching, opting into their search partners, running mobile ads and doing all you can to increase your CTR with scant regard to your actual sales figures.
If you want good advice from somebody on the internet who is a true expert in their field then you are going to have to pay for it sadly. The problem is that there are loads of people claiming to be experts these days, with no actual experience or record of success, and it can be difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff especially when crafty marketing tactics are used.
By the way my point was that any 'free' info on the web is usually garbage. If you think you can DIY your PPC using the 3 yr old free Google tutorial videos then go ahead. Their free advice will include broad matching, opting into their search partners, running mobile ads and doing all you can to increase your CTR with scant regard to your actual sales figures.
If you want good advice from somebody on the internet who is a true expert in their field then you are going to have to pay for it sadly. The problem is that there are loads of people claiming to be experts these days, with no actual experience or record of success, and it can be difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff especially when crafty marketing tactics are used.
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mediaguy35
Well that's my game - actual targeting/matching punter to supplier - No advert can convert, the website does that and for that you need the right audience and offer, at the right price for conversion to work. Whats the point in 1 million visitor numbers if no bugger buys anything.
And now to what I do, well, currently I'm a freelance copywriter, but have irons in fires too. For example, one of my websites got 100'000 visitors for 2014, another got 85'000 in 2013. My average traffic count is 15k a month, and owner of 6 web properties with a worth of 300k.
The group is made up 2 blogs, 2 directories, forum, engines and the 7th site currently in planning stage. I've done everything regards to publishing on the web, and specialise in start-ups, building and selling them on for a profit. We just added video capability and have interests in the job market too.
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