Why aren't marketer willing to take responsibility?

[GuyMor]

Hi all,

We have a clothing brand, very niche but very genuine, and the product sells well. We are doing a bit of paid advertising via FB and we do non paid through other medias such as IG, Twitter, FB and related websites.

I've tried google ad words in the past, but as this isn't my profession, I wasn't successful. I have also tried hiring Google PPC marketers but ALL OF THEM say something like: "you'll need a marketing budget of £750+++ or more per month, and it will take 1-3 to see results, but nothing is guaranteed."

While I appreciate marketing and google ppc isn't exact science, what I don't appreciate is the unwillingness of those people to commit to success. If you are a professional, you should have experience in the field and should have created X amount of ads in that field, and gained traction, experience and knowledge to then use onwards, on other brands and ads. Every professional should be confident in their success and the way to achieve it without spending all of the clients funds.

Sorry, rant's over.

 

[elad]

Lol

Fun read

 

[Shopclicks]

PPC is not marketing, it's advertising and only makes up part of a businesses 'marketing plan'. The reason you wont get cast iron guaranteed results from anyone, is that they have no control over what you do with the customer after the 'advertisment' they placed for you has 'worked'. It's no different to placing a printed magazine ad. The magazine will not guarantee a return on your investment and neither will the agency you paid for it.

You should probably think yourself lucky the marketing guys aren't promising the world by selling you 'guaranteed results'. They're just being upfront and honest.

If you want serp results, improve your on-page seo by telling Google who you want to target, or run your own Adwords campaign. You don't need an agency to handle an account for a small niche market.

I've tried google ad words in the past, but as this isn't my profession, I wasn't successful.

Being a professional had nothing to do with it. Its advertising and it's part of a much bigger picture.

 

[beasty]

I heard Coca Cola demanded some of their tv budget back as no one responded to their adverts
It is nice to see the TV company take responsibility for Coca Cola not converting

 

[JamesMason67]

As Beasty above.

All the PPC guys are doing for you is presenting an ad (a very small ad at that) to Google etc. users. The use of professionals will..
a) Make sure the ad is displayed correctly.
b) The correct range of people are seeing it.
c) Minimise click wastage.
d) Advise you on landing pages for your ads etc., etc.

As with any posting of any ads, no guarantees. However with the correct professional in place, your ROI is more likely to be positive than trying to do it yourself. Assuming you don't have experience.

There are forum members here who will set it up for you for a fee, and you can spend what you like per month to see how it goes, but the best chance of success will come from a monthly managed account so the PPC guy can make adjustments, carry out tests etc.

You don't have to go down the minimum spend pcm route either. My account was managed for a fixed monthly fee, regardless of my spend. Of course I am in a smaller niche and operating area than you, but it can be done this way for sure.
All the best

 

[GuyMor]

PPC is not marketing, it's advertising and only makes up part of a businesses 'marketing plan'

You are right, I did mean advertisers.

The reason you wont get cast iron guaranteed results from anyone, is that they have no control over what you do with the customer after the 'advertisment' they placed for you has 'worked'

And you hit the spot exactly. When you go to the doctor because your ear hurts, the don't just give you pain killers, he looks at the issue from top to bottom.

The advertisers I've encountered, all they wanted to do is get paid, put the advert on, and that's it. They don't want to be involved in the big picture which is exactly what I, and most small business look for - an advertising "partner" that can understand that putting an advert up isn't the end result its just the beginning.
If I was an advertiser, I would ask the client what does he want to achieve with the adverts (more sales? more newsletter signup etc), then understand the market more, and most importantly, understand the product, how much it costs to make, what are the margins and then he can understand how much a conversion should be worth. Setting up the adwords campaign for an expert shouldn't take more than 30 min, and add another 30 minutes of conversation about the above - the cost of this whole set up shouldn't be high, and like I said, that's just the beginning.

I can say that a good advertiser (one that brings sales and a relatively low cost) is something every small business will want, I unfortunately I don't see many advertisers act as above.

There are forum members here who will set it up for you for a fee, and you can spend what you like per month to see how it goes, but the best chance of success will come from a monthly managed account so the PPC guy can make adjustments, carry out tests etc.

I'd be happy to get a reasonable quote to get the ball rolling, but I'm not optimistic.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

You are right, I did mean advertisers.



And you hit the spot exactly. When you go to the doctor because your ear hurts, the don't just give you pain killers, he looks at the issue from top to bottom.

The advertisers I've encountered, all they wanted to do is get paid, put the advert on, and that's it. They don't want to be involved in the big picture which is exactly what I, and most small business look for - an advertising "partner" that can understand that putting an advert up isn't the end result its just the beginning.
If I was an advertiser, I would ask the client what does he want to achieve with the adverts (more sales? more newsletter signup etc), then understand the market more, and most importantly, understand the product, how much it costs to make, what are the margins and then he can understand how much a conversion should be worth. Setting up the adwords campaign for an expert shouldn't take more than 30 min, and add another 30 minutes of conversation about the above - the cost of this whole set up shouldn't be high, and like I said, that's just the beginning.

I can say that a good advertiser (one that brings sales and a relatively low cost) is something every small business will want, I unfortunately I don't see many advertisers act as above.

I'd be happy to get a reasonable quote to get the ball rolling, but I'm not optimistic.

That statement there proves you have absolutely no idea how time consuming PPC is, I hate it because it is a time sponge, it DEVOURS time like a hungry T Rex!

The key to success is the search intent, getting the intent matched to the search terms, get that wrong and you are throwing money away, the keyword research alone is a few hours work. then you have to craft the adverts to match, then you have to set up the split testing, the groups, categories etc, THEHn you have to set it live and THEN the time REALLY gets eaten as you constantly monitor it and move things around to get the lowest cost per click/acquisition.

If your PPC guys didn't ask what you want to achieve and are not looking at cost per acquisition then you are talking to the wrong guys.

Any decent marketer or PPC guy will ask what your aims are as the very first question. how on earth can you set up a campaign plan without knowing what the action intended is to be? the search terms are different for a start, if you are looking for sign ups, you would be looking for search terms with 'information' & 'help' or similar.

While I agree with a bit of what you say, I fear you are being unrealistic. Speak to someone who knows what they are doing an in depth conversation with them should cost you nothing at all.

 

[Clinton]

I'm going to disagree with most of my knowledgeable friends here. I think the OP has a point.

That statement there proves you have absolutely no idea how time consuming PPC is.....

But a campaign can also be set up in 30 minutes (without extensive keyword research, creating a negative keyword list, creating multiple ads to do A/B testing, advising on the landing page etc).

As an advertiser you have no way of knowing whether your marketer spent 30 minutes or 30 hours.

And anyway, you've not hired him on an hourly contract, you've hired him to provide some expertise that you do not have. Because you do not have the expertise you can't tell how well or badly he has set your campaign up. You are going to assess the quality of the work from the results. But by then it's too late as the marketer has no stake in the result and he already has his payment.

I wouldn't be surprised if the OP found firm after firm just wanting to be paid for placing the ad and then walking away - there are a lot of charlatans who'll talk a good game but can't deliver the results they promise and hence want payment in full, in advance.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Sorry But you are not disagreeing with everyone. I said

"While I agree with a bit of what you say, I fear you are being unrealistic."

He also made a ridiculous statement where he stated as fact the campaign he is looking for with all the things he wanted, that would be successful, could be set up in 30 minutes. he is plain wrong.

Surely You must agree with that?

You seem to be arguing over whether or not the guy has the expertise to judge the quality of the work being done. hell anyone can set up an adwords campaign in minutes, less than 30, probably 5. All you do is set a budget, grab a shed load of keywords, don't look at them or separate them, write a couple of lines of text set the budget and hit the button. job done.

but THAT isn't what he wanted is it, so do you really think what he is asking for can be set up in 30 minutes, AND get him the results he is expecting?

 

[Shopclicks]

I've tried google ad words in the past, but as this isn't my profession, I wasn't successful.

I'd be interested to know why you think your attempt didn't work and why you think a professional could do it better.

 

[threenine]

I think we should look no further than the Old Welsh Guy's answer here. Many people are under the illusion that because Google have made the job, of you giving them your money easy, that actually making your money work for you is easy!

When you give your money to an Investment broker, he doesn't say "oh Cheers for that I'll give you a million quid next week!" All Financial Services, will tell you that your investments are likely to depreciate as well as appreciate. More than likely your initial investment will go down over the short term.

It amazes me , that even after 20 years of internet businesses - and 2 booms and crashes, people still think that internet businesses are easy. All you need is a little SEO and HTML and you're done living on a Caribbean island, while the slot machine keeps ringing jackpot!

 

[Gecko001]

Solicitors are considered professionals by most people and they take on clients who have little chance of winning their cases, but yet they usually do everything in a thorough and professional way to advise the client of the law to earn their fee. So if the marketing expert does everything they can to promote the clients product following good marketing practices etc. many increases sales, they are probably doing a professional job. What the OP is probably looking for is the marketing equivalent of no-win-no-fee.

PS. I just use the solicitor analogy to illustrate my point so hopefully this will not trigger an off-topic discussion on the legal profession and its professionalism.

 

[threenine]

Because you do not have the expertise you can't tell how well or badly he has set your campaign up. You are going to assess the quality of the work from the results.

Here is the crux of the matter. The notion that people are searching for blame!

You have two options here:
A. ) Get the skills that you don't have, which Will cost Money & Time to Acquire
B.) Pay for the skills you don't have , which Will cost Money & Time to Acquire.

Waiting to assess on the results, is a little foolish to me.

You need to establish your Leading and Lagging indicators in order to define what success looks like.

As stated any monkey can set up a Adwords campaign in 5 minutes. The actual setting up of the campaign in the console is not what you're paying for. You're paying for the services related to that activity. The Monitoring, the tuning, the steps to conversion.

 

[GuyMor]

The key to success is the search intent, getting the intent matched to the search terms, get that wrong and you are throwing money away, the keyword research alone is a few hours work. then you have to craft the adverts to match, then you have to set up the split testing, the groups, categories etc, THEHn you have to set it live and THEN the time REALLY gets eaten as you constantly monitor it and move things around to get the lowest cost per click/acquisition.

You are right. It was a slightly ridiculous statement. It doesn't take 30 min. And it shouldn't BUT, it shouldn't take much much more because: if you are experienced advertiser, and you have some history in that specific industry you should bring some knowledge with you in terms of what SHOULD work so you don't have to do the whole research again from scratch.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Guy I agree experience makes things quicker, but PPC is time hungry it really is. it requires monitoring atty the time in the early stages.

I guess the problem is we are discussing a haircut without seeing the hair

Clothing is competitive, and you have a brand, so what these guys have done may not apply, they won't have to do it all from scratch, but they should as search trends, what was searched last year will possibly be different to what is searched today.

 

[Clinton]

OWG, the nub is the lack of accountability, not whether it takes 30 minutes or not. As you say, campaigns require monitoring. Clients need support and assistance through all that monitoring, tweaking etc. Maybe even with the conversions. If the new traffic is not converting at the same level as organic or other visitors then further changes may be required to fine tune keywords etc., to ensure the right visitors are clicking ads.

I'm still with the OP. I don't think he's being unrealistic at all.

https://marketoonist.com/2016/05/campaign-performance.html

threenine, it's not about "blame". It's about finding a partner who is confident enough in their product to stand by it and ensure they deliver on what they've promised. Unfortunately, setting up Adwords campaigns for clients has become a little like the SEO market, and the local zoo - too many monkeys.

 

[GuyMor]

It's about finding a partner who is confident enough in their product to stand by it and ensure they deliver on what they've promised.

Exactly my point.

I don't mind paying for results. I expect an advertiser to say something like:

Based on my experience in this field and your average cost of making your products (which he would have asked and got an answer from me), I suggest we focus on ___ amount of campaigns for _______ items (after he did some homework, but mainly based on his experience) and I can predict roughly a £X click cost and based on your website conversion rate and the focus of our campaigns I believe it will cost you £Y per conversion.​

That should be in his quote to us. Now I will have to choose whether it's worth it or not.

 

[Clinton]

Gecko001, one can make an exception (not link payment to results) where the marketer's reputation and honesty is beyond any doubt and/or you have strong references from people you know and trust. For example, I'd hire Mr Loophole to fight a speeding ticket for me and not expect to pay him on results.

In my industry, business owners selling their businesses expect to pay business brokers based on results i.e. a percentage of the final sale price. If you don't sell the business then you don't get paid anything. I advise vendors in this space, but I do not work on those terms. Vendors pay me in full, in advance. I just billed a client for £6,000 + VAT and he paid it. So I completely understand that in some cases you have to go on trust. But you need to do your due diligence on the service provider - properly and thoroughly - before taking that kind of leap. Not everybody has the time especially when this market (online marketers) is so crowded.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

OWG, the nub is the lack of accountability, not whether it takes 30 minutes or not. As you say, campaigns require monitoring. Clients need support and assistance through all that monitoring, tweaking etc. Maybe even with the conversions. If the new traffic is not converting at the same level as organic or other visitors then further changes may be required to fine tune keywords etc., to ensure the right visitors are clicking ads.

I'm still with the OP. I don't think he's being unrealistic at all.

https://marketoonist.com/2016/05/campaign-performance.html

threenine, it's not about "blame". It's about finding a partner who is confident enough in their product to stand by it and ensure they deliver on what they've promised. Unfortunately, setting up Adwords campaigns for clients has become a little like the SEO market, and the local zoo - too many monkeys.

But he hasn't used anyone? As I said previously you seem to be claiming to be disagreeing with me when you are not I find it odd

The original post says he tried adwords himself it didn't work.

Now I agree 100% with him that the 1-3 month claim for adwords is absolute rubbish, and I am thinking they are looking at natural listings rather than paid advertising, because paid advertising is immediate result.

he said "what I don't appreciate is the unwillingness of those people to commit to success."

What he meant was " i want them to guarantee me success" which in unrealistic unless he gives them full reign over the business the website etc, I completely agree that the marketing guy should be asking lots of questions about profitability and maximum cost per acquisition, iand said if they are not he is talking to the wrong guy.

 

[Clinton]

he said "what I don't appreciate is the unwillingness of those people to commit to success."

What he meant was " i want them to guarantee me success"....unrealistic...

When the service provider has a stake in your success he's more likely to deliver. I find the OP's expectations entirely reasonable.

Where I do agree with you is that the marketing guy should also be involved in landing page copy, in asking lots of questions about maximum CPA etc.

Maybe it boils down to how we define "success".

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Agreed, like everything, we don't have the full story

 

[threenine]

I think you'll find its entirely about blame.

The OP is asking for someone to blame about lack of success. He's asking an agency to guarantee the result of PPC click campaign. It's the definition of success here. If I read his question right.

He's asking for an agency to guarantee him a result, but he hasn't truly described the result he's looking for.

He may of asked the agency for a guarantee on the sales volume generated. Which I would have to say is impossible to guarantee because it relies on a lot more variables than purely selecting a few choice keywords to include on your adverts.

The only guarantee any agency would give you, that there will be an increase in traffic, but they cannot guarantee on the volume of traffic. As that in itself has far too many variables. i.e. Percentage of users in that specific niche who have Adblockers turned on.

Nothing in life comes with a guarantee. The solicitor case, is perfect, I haven't come across a solicitor yet, who would guarantee me that he would close my house sale in a week. All I ever get is assurances that they will do their side of the deal as efficiently and prompt as possible. However, they cannot guarantee the duration.

I have never dealt with any financial services companies that will guarantee that I will make money from my investments. They simply state, based on historical data, that may be possible but they can't predict the future, despite all their expert services.

When asking for a guarantee, what you are actually asking for is what you can do and who is going to take ownership of something when things go wrong. Who is going to put the effort in to make things right. Hence Blame.

Asking an agency to guarantee you a result, that given a specific campaign for Red T-Shirts, based on some data that people were buying Red T-shirts last week like hot cakes, that if you initiate a campaign for Red T-Shirts this week you'll make X amount in sales. The market itself is fickle like the weather, when next week the focus will be Black Sweatshirts. You can't ask an agency to take the wrap for that despite their best efforts to market your Red T-Shirts.

If the agency reports back and says, you know what we tried Red T-Shirts but the market is demanding black sweatshirts. Sorry your red T Shirts are redundant stock. I don't think you'll find an agency in the world that will give you a cast iron guarantee that your product WILL sell, but they will give you a guarantee that they will endeavour to market them.

 

[Shopclicks]

Based on my experience in this field and your average cost of making your products (which he would have asked and got an answer from me), I suggest we focus on ___ amount of campaigns for _______ items (after he did some homework, but mainly based on his experience) and I can predict roughly a £X click cost and based on your website conversion rate and the focus of our campaigns I believe it will cost you £Y per conversion.

This is totally unreasonable and virtually impossible without a lot more factors taken into consideration and a hell of a lot more than what amounts to less than £200/wk and still leave something to spend on Google Ads.

1) Your range is marketed as activity specific
2) You'd be hard pushed to find a PPC co. with experience in your market
3) You don't mention keyword research
4) Sector competition for keywords
5) Your ability to supply and fill orders
6) The limited range in your categories
7) Testing and monitoring keyword, bid vs conversion
8) Seasonal variation effects on buying habits
9) Optimising quality score (on-page)
10) Your ability to convert based on price vs competitors
etc..etc........

All the more reason to DIY if you don't have the budget to pay someone to do all of that and more.

 

[JamesMason67]

Perhaps we could ask the PPC/Marketing people on here. Would any of you guys/ladies guarantee with a money back offer the success of an advertising campaign? PPC or otherwise.
Maybe some will.

Also, trying to hire an at risk "partner" at the going market rate for the normal marketer is unreasonable is it not? If you ask anyone in business to take more risk you are going to have to pay more money. Fact.

Using the same rationale as the OP, would it be reasonable for the PPC guy to come back to you and demand some extra money from you because the campaign was more successful than your discussions indicated?

My thoughts are that the OP, (and I say this with a lot of respect Guymor), is being a little naïve in his expectations. Business as a concept is purely speculative. Business is all about trying stuff out.

Some things work, you keep these ideas, try to develop them further, and then they are part of what makes you successful.

Some things don't work. You try all the angles and no joy, so you discard them.

In your case, I would suggest Adwords is a proven concept that done correctly has a high chance of success. No guarantees though.
James

 

[EcomAlistair]

Agree with virtually all replies from @Shopclicks, @JamesMason67 @OldWelshGuy and @threenine ... all making a lot of sense, and giving marketers a break (thanks!).

However, I totally get the emotional drivers of the OP .... and any small business owner for that matter! There is so much risk and adversity in their lives anyway, and they're looking for some assurance that they're not throwing their money away.

Unfortunately the market dynamics of Google AdWords have driven costs up, and the odd waste click here and there can run most budgets dry before the morning break.

I think a PPC expert worth their salt will:

1. Invest time upfront to understand the client's true desires and determine concrete objectives
2. Advise the client on the 'full funnel' design - from ad view through to whatever the final conversion is (purchase, form fill, subscription) - whatever was identified in (1.)
3. Try and educate the client on their process, so that their work is not viewed as some untouchable black box
4. Offer the client some kind of a sandboxed test to prove they know what they're doing.
5. Continually improve a campaign based on (a) direct testing, (b) client feedback, and (c) 3 below.

Conversely, I think a PPC client worth their salt will:

1. Honour and reward the risk taken by the PPC expert (i.e.
2. Get stuck in to help the campaign along (clients are the best people to go through and add negative keywords, and set campaign parameters such as schedules, bid adjustments, location and keyword targeting)
3. Offer data back to the PPC expert transparently, so that the PPC person can see the impact of their efforts and twiddle the nobs accordingly - an easy way to do this is to set up an integration with Google Sheets that pulls in all conversions ... ideally the client should also provide sale information, including Gross profit ...

I think both the PPC expert and the Client need to:

1. Agree what metrics they are going to measure
2. Agree benchmarks for each metric
3. Test, test, test that measurement is in place and working
4. Commit to "thinking process, not destination"

GENERAL PPC ADVICE FOR SMALL BUSINESS OWNERS

• Control spending through the use of negative keywords - I've seen companies p*ss their money away faster than I could spend it in an Apple store, because they don't add negative keywords and are essentially inviting randoms to waste their time and cash!
• Use AdGroups, 10 keywords max in an adgroup and always 2-3 adverts minimum
• Always send PPC traffic to a dedicated landing page (use Instapage for simplicity)
• Set up conversion tracking - otherwise you're wasting everyone's time (inc your own)
• Install HotJar on whatever page you are sending the PPC traffic to
• Setup call conversion tracking

I hope the above is a helpful summary from the perspective of someone who has been a client of PPC experts, been a PPC expert, and consulted to PPC experts.

 

[JamesMason67]

Thank you Alistair. Very informative. Perhaps you and Guymor should have a chat..

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Thank you Alistair. Very informative. Perhaps you and Guymor should have a chat..

But he will have to be quick as he only has 30 minutes <joke>

 

[OldWelshGuy]

I totally get the emotional drivers of the OP .... and any small business owner for that matter! There is so much risk and adversity in their lives anyway, and they're looking for some assurance that they're not throwing their money away.
<snip> .

great post

 

[threenine]

+1 @Alistair Wilson which goes to highlight exactly the point.

When setting up your Ad Words campaign, this is what you're spending your money on with an agency, it's not just setting up a campaign with Google. All these activities listed here will involve a lot of background tasks and research, hence expenditure of cash.

So to come back to the OP , if you want a guarantee of success you will need to invest. @Alistair Wilson has provided you with a detailed shopping list of what to look for in an agency, and what steps you can take to ensure your success

 

[cts1975]

Why not learn more about Adwords and have a go yourself?
I find Adwords fascinating and pretty easy to use now. I started using adwords for my own business in September 2003. I read loads of articles online and eventually started to understand different techniques that can be used to test different keywords and phrases.
As mentioned above using Negative Keywords is crucial to keep costs under control.
My business involves minibus hire (with driver) so I learnt the hard way early on about using negative keywords as I was up against big self drive hire companies (Avis, Europcar etc) who were just blowing me out of the water with their budgets!
Even if you pay a company to manage adwords for you, learning more about how it works will be beneficial when planning strategies and targets with them.

 

[GuyMor]

Perhaps we could ask the PPC/Marketing people on here. Would any of you guys/ladies guarantee with a money back offer the success of an advertising campaign? PPC or otherwise.
Maybe some will.

Hi James,

Please don't put words into my mouth... I didn't mean the experts needs to provide me with a money back guarantee... only to offer a detailed quote, and some reasonable projections based on his experience. and like @Alistair Wilson said - do his homework and ask the right questions.

 

[GuyMor]

Great post @Alistair Wilson, thank you

• Offer the client some kind of a sandboxed test to prove they know what they're doing.

That would be very usefull before the client commits to hunderds or thousands of £££. It's a great idea, but will take a lot of time and effort from the expert to learn and show relevant text.

 

[JamesMason67]

Hi James,

Please don't put words into my mouth... I didn't mean the experts needs to provide me with a money back guarantee... only to offer a detailed quote, and some reasonable projections based on his experience. and like @Alistair Wilson said - do his homework and ask the right questions.

Apologies, didn't mean to offend. Was just trying to illustrate that what you were hoping for isn't going to happen. All the projections and right questions stuff anybody gives you wont add up to a thing at the end of the day. They wont guarantee a thing. "Sorry pal, we did our best" is all you will get.

The onus is on you 100% to do your homework, choose your PPC guy very carefully and then you're on your own.

Here's a good bit advice for you. Have a chat to Steve Gibson.

His handle on UKBF is directmarketingadvice. Google "Both Sides Of The Click" for his website, contact number etc.

I'm sure some respected members on here will +1 what ive said.
Apologies again
James

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

I've tried google ad words in the past, but as this isn't my profession, I wasn't successful. I have also tried hiring Google PPC marketers but ALL OF THEM say something like: "you'll need a marketing budget of £750+++ or more per month, and it will take 1-3 to see results, but nothing is guaranteed."

Few things in marketing are guaranteed, and I'm speaking as a marketer who works on a lot of percentage-of-sales based agreements where I'm prepared to put my neck on the line.

Google, whether SEO or PPC, is notoriously difficult to provide a solid guarantee on because there are so many variables which can change in an instant.

Take Adwords, for example. What if you start a campaign with affordable bids, and sales flow in at an acceptable cost-per-conversion, but then your keyword competitors suddenly decide to bump up their bids?

Their ads shoot up the positions and yours drop along with your traffic. You could counter that by increasing your own bids, but then this may push your cost-per-conversion too high and wipe out your profit margin.

This is just one example of many. What might work today might not work so well tomorrow, which is why Adwords management is such a hands-on job.

Any good PPC specialist can usually foresee the probability of such problems arising and give you a clearer answer if they do many hours of research into the market, the products, the competitors and their history. However, if you are not prepared to pay them for that time, then a degree of uncertainty is what you will get.

Just appreciate that they are being completely honest with you, as I think that false claims and promises would probably be worse, would they not?

However, one point I disagree with is the idea that it takes 1-3 months to see results. It can take that length of time (and sometimes even longer) to see the effect of a well-optimised campaign, but it shouldn't take more than a couple of weeks to get a good understanding of whether a campaign is feasible for a particular product, price and marketplace.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

One point I want to add is that how much you're prepared to spend makes a huge difference as well.

Let's say you're willing to spend £300 per month on Adwords, which is not an amount to be sneezed at for many small businesses. If the cost-per-click is around £1, that's only 300 clicks per month. If you have just 5 ad groups in total, that splits them up into an average of 60 clicks per ad group. Split-test two ads per ad group, and that's only 30 clicks per ad every month.

Now this is fine and can work well in many cases, but it considerably increases the amount of time it takes to build statistically confident data and actually make progress in optimising the campaign.

Generally speaking, you need at least a few hundred clicks on an advert to reach a stable CTR, CR and average CPC where you have enough statistical confidence to enact an improvement. With so few clicks coming in, it can take many weeks, if not months, to build enough data.

I've seen many situations in both page and advert split-testing where one variation might suddenly burst ahead, but once the test is given more time, this variation's metrics fall back down to baseline again and can even go under. Act too soon, and you may be enabling a supposedly winning variation which actually underperforms against the original long-term.

Of course, having the expertise means that you can split-test variations which have a high likelihood of improving the metrics. With my background in copywriting, for example, I know how to write good adverts which pull people in. However, when you start getting into the realms of incremental improvements, you need the data, and how fast that data comes in dictates the speed of those improvements.

 

[JamesMason67]

Thanks Scott that makes a lot of sense.
Nice one
James

 

[SARA K]

Hi @GuyMor,

I hope you finally found someone who was honest and helped you with your marketing campaign.

I am glad you had that rant on here GM, l hear similar stories from businesses but never online so thank you for highlighting it on UK Business Forums.

As a Marketer myself, l worked in several agencies, big and small and start-up Digital businesses. I personally found even the agencies and small so-called Digital Marketing businesses can be dishonest as the client didn't really understand anyway. I was astonished as CEO's of some of the design companies l worked for just wanted the $$$ and a trashy ad to show for it - no experts working on it but interns (Senior Management too busy worrying about not losing the client who spends the most with them). And even till this day, I keep hearing dishonest people running businesses and it makes my blood boil. After seeing it for many years, l had to throw in the towel. If you would not want to be treated like that, why treat others like that?

Plus have you noticed how they preach what they can do for 750 but you Google them or go on their social media site, it's a joke - they don't practise what they preach. Funniest thing is some NOT all, aren't even experts just like a businessman hiring monkies to do jobs to bring the money it.

They should be honest and tell you what you're getting, yes to an extent l agree with some of the comments when they say it's unpredictable YET if the goals are predefined with you in a proper meeting with budgets no matter 200 or 1000 it isn't possible to help you on your objective (and marketing strategy goals as a whole).

It can be difficult to find honest people who are willing to help you beyond their own financial gain, you will find people wanting the quick buck and ridiculous quotes. I'm astonished when businesses tell me how much they paid for SEM and SEO (500 - 100 GBP) and the job was a 30 min task and maybe 80 GBP's worth. The true passionate and honest marketers wouldn't do that but just like any industry that's growing in demand you'll find dishonesty.

My best advice is to get network and get to know people, not for a particular reason but once you have a good group of business friends, one will be or will know an honest Marketer that can help you. And it works as you'll only keep good business friends that are honest and helpful around you.

Trust me, there are honest marketers out there Please don't let the money hungry ones make you think we are all the same Have a great day GM and keep the rants coming, we like to hear honest as people like me are always here to listen

 

[SARA K]

Hi @GuyMor,

I hope you finally found someone who was honest and helped you with your marketing campaign.

I am glad you had that rant on here GM, l hear similar stories from businesses but never online so thank you for highlighting it on UK Business Forums.

As a Marketer myself, l worked in several agencies, big and small and start-up Digital businesses. I personally found even the agencies and small so-called Digital Marketing businesses can be dishonest as the client didn't really understand anyway. I was astonished as CEO's of some of the design companies l worked for just wanted the $$$ and a trashy ad to show for it - no experts working on it but interns (Senior Management too busy doing nothing). After seeing it for many years, l had to throw in the towel with many agencies. I keep hearing dishonest people running businesses and it makes my blood boil. If you would not want to be treated like that, why treat others like that? Plus have you noticed how they preach what they can do for 750 but you Google them or go on their social media site, it's a joke - they don't practise what they preach. Funniest thing is some NOT all, aren't even experts just like a businessman hiring monkies to do jobs to bring the money it.

They should be honest and tell you what you're getting, yes to an extent l agree with some of the comments when they say it's unpredictable YET if the goals are predefined with you in a proper meeting with budgets no matter 200 or 1000 it isn't possible to help you on your objective (and marketing strategy goals as a whole).

It can be difficult to find honest people who are willing to help you beyond their own financial gain, you will find people wanting the quick buck and ridiculous quotes. I'm astonished when businesses tell me how much they paid for SEM and SEO (500 - 100 GBP) and the job was a 30 min task and maybe 80 GBP's worth. The true passionate and honest marketers wouldn't do that but just like any industry that's growing in demand you'll find dishonesty.

My best advice is to get network and get to know people, not for a particular reason but once you have a good group of business friends, one will be or will know an honest Marketer that can help you. And it works as you'll only keep good business friends that are honest and helpful around you.

Trust me, there are honest marketers out there Please don't let the money hungry ones make you think we are all the same

Have a great day GM and keep the rants coming, we like to hear honest as people like me are always here to listen

 

[JamesMason67]

Hello Sara. No-one is talking about dishonest marketers here. That is a different argument and everyone feels the same as you about that. Sure there are crooks in every line of business, but you do your homework before you make contact.

Guymor has had quotes which he's not happy about paying without commitment from the marketer to the campaign success, and I understand why he's saying it, but he is unlikely to get what he wants. He has had a few quotes all telling him the same thing. For his highly competitive niche the £750 budget sounds reasonable.

I pay around half of this pcm in a very specialised service in a small geographical area, and it pays so I will continue doing it.

 

[AMcDermott]

Back when I sold SEO services in 2007/2008, I did offer a guarantee, but that was "money back" rather than "guaranteed placement". There's far too many dependencies on issues beyond the providers control to offer a revenue guarantee at that level.

Great thread, really interesting discussion.