Translating from GB to US English

[titanium]

In my field there are quite a few very vital words which are completely different in US compared to UK English. Around the world usage varies i.e. Australia uses the same as UK but South Africa (I believe) uses the same as the US.

I have been wondering for ages what is the best way to deal with this on the page. I use Joomla.

At the moment I have three basic solutions in place:
On some pages I have a link to duplicate content with the terms changed to USA. (I think this is probably bad in Google's eyes though).
On other pages I have written out both terms. My field is music, so for example I would write "this is a crotchet/quarter note" (I think this bulks up the page too much often and is distracting for the reader perhaps).
On other pages I've used the html abbreviation markup so that if the user hovers their mouse over the UK term the USA word pops up. (I think this is rubbish for the USA users!)

So as you can see, I don't think any of these methods work particularly well. I run another Joomla site which is completely bilingual and use a translation module - but I don't think that is appropriate in this case, because most pages don't need any translation and I find the translation modules a huge faff, plus with the one I have installed already it seems it's not even actually possible to translate UK to US English as they are classed as the same language.

I would welcome any comments on the three methods I'm currently using (which do you think is best? from the point of view of the user, without annoying Google?) Can you think of any other solution?

Thanks!

 

[ryedale]

If it was me I'd code a simple Joomla component/plugin that would replace any article matching word in a pre-defined list (configurable in the admin area) if the visitor's location was USA

Send me a PM if you'd like more info on that

 

[Tim Coulter]

If it was me I'd code a simple Joomla component/plugin that would replace any article matching word in a pre-defined list (configurable in the admin area) if the visitor's location was USA

Send me a PM if you'd like more info on that

I was going to suggest using something like AngularJS directives to code the word replacement inline, but your solution seems much more manageable and practical.

 

[titanium]

I had thought something like that might work - but have my doubts, bearing in mind the following e.g's:
UK: "The double bar line is written at the end of the bar." > USA "The double bar line is written at the end of the measure". Hmmmm. Or,
UK: "The crotchet Bb follows the crotchet rest". > USA "The quarter note Bb follows the quarter rest".
It's not like changing all the "dogs" to "cats" you see :/
Also, with this type of plugin would Google "see" my USA terms? It does with all 3 of my current methods.

It would be great if this is feasible!

 

[ryedale]

I think to get around that, you would need to enclose the affected word in a plugin tag

eg {langchange bar} when you needed bar to replaced by measure if a USA visitor and then just leave bar without a tag if you want it to say bar in any langague

The Google side of it, I'd have to think about

 

[titanium]

Ok Thanks Ryedale, will send you a PM!

 

[ryedale]

No problem, we'll have a look and see what we can do

 

[ecoleman]

I have no idea, but I can tell you (being South African) that we spell like the English, not the yanks.

 

[titanium]

Well I have found a solution- quite chuffed that I managed to do this myself as I am not very good with coding! I am simply doing it by displaying/hiding divs like this
<p><a onmousedown="if(document.getElementById('usa').style.display == 'none'){ document.getElementById('usa').style.display = 'block'; document.getElementById('uk').style.display = 'none';}else{ document.getElementById('usa').style.display = 'none'; document.getElementById('uk').style.display = 'block';}" href="javascript:;">Change terminology to UK/USA</a></p>


<p> This is some text which is the same in both languages</p>
<div id="usa" style="display: none;">
<p>This is the text in US English</>
</div>
<div id="uk" style="display: block;">
<p>This is the UK text</p>
</div>
<p>This is some more bilingual text. </p>

I can just copy/paste the javascript into the top of the page.
Can you see any reason why this might be bad? I'm thinking of the hidden text being bad in Google's eyes?

 

[fisicx]

Google will ignore the CSS and look at all the text on the page. Which means it will see a load of dodgy duplicate content. When it thens sees you are hiding this content it may not look too favourably at your site.

And it may not work too well on touch screens and you are adding another user action which reduces usability (people won't see the link, their brain filters out things like this).

 

[titanium]

Thanks fisicx, I was thinking the same.
It's not really "a load" of content though, as generally it's only one paragraph per page, but unless I get a custom mod for joomla made I have to duplicate the content somewhere anywhere.
Custom mod = £ plus time changing all my current content compared to a few bits of "dodgy duplicate" content - how to evaluate if it's worth it?

 

[zigojacko]

All you need to do is create additional pages for each language translation and then specify each version using hreflang. You can do this as many times as is necessary for language and regional versions of your content.

 

[titanium]

All you need to do is create additional pages for each language translation and then specify each version using hreflang. You can do this as many times as is necessary for language and regional versions of your content.

But how will that solve the duplicate content problem? Both pages will be in English and 90% identical....

 

[zigojacko]

But how will that solve the duplicate content problem? Both pages will be in English and 90% identical....

The whole point of hreflang is to serve different content for different languages in different regions. Just make sure you use the canonical link element combined with hreflang to specify the original instances of similar content. Read more here and here.

This is the official and correct process for handling scenarios such as you describe which begs the question why this wasn't previously suggested to you.

 

[titanium]

Thanks zigojacko, and apologies, I didn't notice the link in your first post.

However, I am stuck trying to do this. Joomla doesn't let you write in the header by default, so I have downloaded a plugin to do this. However, JCE then strips out the <link> code when I try to add a shortcode. I know I could disable the editor but I don't want to do that - I need it on as default and will most likely forget which articles I had to save with the editor off and then lose the code on saving, and having spent too much time on this already I don't like that thought!

I have trawled through JCE's support forum and have found no answer, have checked the filters config in joomla and that's fine. I could turn off cleaning up html (haven't tested whether it would work) but that would have a knock on effect as I'm sure I need my code cleaning!

I've looked at using the joomla lang plugins but the documentation is rubbish and I can't understand it very well. It seems the plugin will "detect the language automatically" but I have zero faith that it can tell the difference between UK and US English, when all the words in the US page exist in UK English but have a different meaning!

Arrrrghhh.

 

[zigojacko]

Thanks zigojacko, and apologies, I didn't notice the link in your first post.

However, I am stuck trying to do this. Joomla doesn't let you write in the header by default, so I have downloaded a plugin to do this. However, JCE then strips out the <link> code when I try to add a shortcode. I know I could disable the editor but I don't want to do that - I need it on as default and will most likely forget which articles I had to save with the editor off and then lose the code on saving, and having spent too much time on this already I don't like that thought!

I have trawled through JCE's support forum and have found no answer, have checked the filters config in joomla and that's fine. I could turn off cleaning up html (haven't tested whether it would work) but that would have a knock on effect as I'm sure I need my code cleaning!

I've looked at using the joomla lang plugins but the documentation is rubbish and I can't understand it very well. It seems the plugin will "detect the language automatically" but I have zero faith that it can tell the difference between UK and US English, when all the words in the US page exist in UK English but have a different meaning!

Arrrrghhh.

The default Joomla multilingual features with hreflang is based on automatically inserting them in the <head> by detecting the language packs installed. It's limited and not much use for what you're wanting to achieve.

You'd likely need a developer to build you a simple plugin that allows you to insert custom links into the <head> on a per page basis if there isn't already a plugin out there that does this on Joomla.

 

[titanium]

The plugin I downloaded is supposed to do that via a shortcode within an article.
JCE strips the <link rel.....> code out though. I updated JCE after reading some stuff in their forum and it worked as I saved the article when toggled in html view (yay), but the second time I tried to do it, it stripped the code out again as soon as I toggled back into the wysiwyg. Can't be doing with that!
I can't see any other plugins listed in the JED that do it a different way (any at all, actually).

Is there any way to see whether google has noticed duplicate content? I know I have seen duplicate meta come up in webmaster tools, but not content itself? What is the worst that can happen if I have two pages with similar content - presumably only one is indexed? If so, I can live with that.

 

[zigojacko]

Is there any way to see whether google has noticed duplicate content?

If two indexable pages (i.e. two different URL's) contain the same indexable content (visible content , not page markup), then Google will see it. It will only be hindered (flagged as duplicate content) though it it makes up a considerable percentage of the overall visible indexable content.

What is the worst that can happen if I have two pages with similar content - presumably only one is indexed? If so, I can live with that.

Both will be indexed but potentially yes, only one will be very visible (ranked) but even the fact that both exist can hinder the best performing instance from ranking as well as it can do so it is best to resolve any potential duplicate content issues.

 

[The Byre]

My field is music, so for example I would write "this is a crotchet/quarter note" (I think this bulks up the page too much often and is distracting for the reader perhaps).

Isn't it time we put these asinine differences in the bin, sorry, trash and got off this snobbish nonsense of crotchets, quavers and minims?

Despite being a UK citizen, I find some of the words and pronunciations quiet absurd. When I left the UK in the 60s 'dynasty' started with the sound dye and not din, garage rhymed with mirage and not marriage. I came back to find the whole nation speaking Estuary English.

As for crotchets, quavers and minims, just call them quarters eighths etc. That way, everybody will know what you mean. Most jazzers and rockers have little idea what a minim is!!! Use the US system and you run the risk of everybody actually understanding you!

It's either that, or explain why Germans have the key of H.

 

[titanium]

The Byre - wrong thread.
Please start your own thread for ranting about stuff.

 

[paulears]

It's just that he doesn't understand music - it's got nothing to do with being snobbish. In school here the kids are taught crotchets, quavers and the usual Italian/traditional notation style. The only people who tend to talk in fractions are drummers, so this topic to me makes a huge amount of sense, and having the right words to match the territory are hugely important. A crotchet is a word I have been using since I was at school in the late 60s - I don't ever see me calling it a quarter note - that's just not going to happen. In music, as a working musician, you have to speak the right language, and the musical director will use traditional language, which you MUST understand. It's very difficult trying to translate this into american when they look at you and say "what?"

 

[titanium]

Thanks for that Paulears!

You are completely right.
I teach people to pass the UK music theory exams, and although the exam papers are "bilingual" when it comes to note names, my students and website visitors are certainly not bilingual. I know this because I ran a poll on my site a few years ago and around 80% used UK, 19% US and 1% comfortable with either. I began my site using UK only and started getting lots of requests for my pages and materials to be translated into US and I certainly don't mind making my site available to the widest possible audience.
I was quite stunned to read the word "snobbery" regarding this - what is snobbish about it?! You can't expect 10 year old UK kids to understand a page full of words they've never heard before and vice versa for the US readers. (Not that it is only kids actually!)

 

[InternetMarketingPlatinum]

Thanks for that Paulears!

You are completely right.
I teach people to pass the UK music theory exams, and although the exam papers are "bilingual" when it comes to note names, my students and website visitors are certainly not bilingual. I know this because I ran a poll on my site a few years ago and around 80% used UK, 19% US and 1% comfortable with either. I began my site using UK only and started getting lots of requests for my pages and materials to be translated into US and I certainly don't mind making my site available to the widest possible audience.
I was quite stunned to read the word "snobbery" regarding this - what is snobbish about it?! You can't expect 10 year old UK kids to understand a page full of words they've never heard before and vice versa for the US readers. (Not that it is only kids actually!)

The Byre went off topic and you slated him for it. Paulears went off topic but you liked what he said so you thanked him haha [emoji4]

 

[The Byre]

I was quite stunned to read the word "snobbery" regarding this - what is snobbish about it?!

It is snobbery because you are placing 'classical' phrases and usages above those of 98% of the music market, namely rock, pop, hip-hop, folk and jazz. Classical music is now about 2% of the market.

A survey of your own website users is like asking people on the High Street if they would shop on the High Street.

The only non-subsidised and genuinely popular use of classical music is film and TV scores, most of which is done in America of course. We have a thriving film music industry here, but it is restricted to just a handful of projects done in the three A-studios in London (Abbey, Air and Angel) and about a half of that is for US projects.

This has nothing to do with the subject, but if you want to hear a mix of jazz, classical and other styles done so brilliantly, that it is breath-taking, listen to the score of the TV series 'Gotham'. It is just stunning!

 

[titanium]

The Byre,
The definition of snobbery is "the behavior or attitude of people who think they are better than other people". I don't think either version of the music terms is better than the other, they are simply different and (I like that fact that there are regional varieties in English). You are completely misguided in your use of the term. I am not "placing classical phrases and usages above those of 98% of the music market".by using UK terms on my website, I am in fact including everybody.

Frankly it's completely irrelevant to me that pop, jazz etc are more popular than classical music. This world is big enough to accommodate everybody in their own individual music preferences. My preference is classical, but I also love pop, film music, disco, and enjoy many other genres. I hate jazz, but that's my personal choice and I like the fact that it exists and I also find it interesting, even if I don't like listening to it. I think there is only one person on this thread who is apparently dismissing what other people like because they think their own personal preferences are somehow better, and that person, my friend, is you.

My website has a very specific aim - to teach people taking certain UK music theory exams. That is my job. I'm not going to pack it all in and start teaching jazz theory and limit my audience to people who don't understand the word crotchet. There are plenty of other websites out there that do that. If you don't like what I do, that's fine, but it really makes no difference to anything.

Your reference to the high street poll is also rather silly. That would, in fact, be like asking using of my website if they would use my website. I didn't ask them that.

 

[titanium]

Oh, it's just occurred to me that you thought the poll on my site was to discover the proportion of people who use the USA terms globally? Is that what you thought? The poll was to determine the usage of my site's users, to help me determine the best approach for dealing with linguistic differences. I know that there are most likely more users world-wide who use the American terms, but there are more UK-speakers who take the theory exams I teach.