Where Do We Stand With This Domain Dispute?

[EViS]

We purchased a .co.uk domain for a new business which we started up in October 2012. Exactly 22 days later, the .com TLD of this domain was purchased by this company (according to WhoIs):

Association, OnNowTV.com @cox.net
4101 NW 143 STREET
OKLAHOMA CITY, OK 73134
US
+1.4054101837

They have simply put up a DomainSponsor-powered page.

The domain isn't exactly one which should be 'snapped up' as it consists of three words which are hardly popular keywords and totalling 17 characters. This is the name of our business, but it is not a trademark.

We had every intention of purchasing the .com domain, and to be fair I'm not sure why we didn't do it at the time of purchasing the .co.uk variant.

Now, where do we stand on getting the .com domain into our own hands. Are we at the mercy of paying an extortionate fee for it? Or do we have any legal standing in that this company have purchased the domain very soon after we did purely to profit out of it?

 

[OldWelshGuy]

You have no legal claim to this domain and because you didn't buy it at the same time, you are now at the mercy of the domain owner.

 

[Billmccallum]

As long as they dont try to pass themselves off as your business, there is little you can do, as OWG say's.

 

[EViS]

Bugger, I thought that may be the case . So,

a) What are the chances they will decide to let the domain expire?
b) Based on that Whois, who do we approach to purchase the domain?
c) How much should we expect to pay?

 

[Deleted member 27344]

How do you know that they're not planning to do anything with the business/ domain and, genuinely are not aware of you?

 

[designerfashion]

I have had similar issues with this.

Basically there are companies who search the net looking for variations and also .com version of other domains. Those companies may even contact yourself offering you to buy that domain at a rather inflated cost. Mine consisted of two words specific to my business and they wanted £5k for it.

Good luck with it, as unless your willing to pay through the nose you aint getting anywhere

 

[Optegris]

a) What are the chances they will decide to let the domain expire?
Possible if they are just registering domains on the basis that other variants haven't been acquired.

b) Based on that Whois, who do we approach to purchase the domain?
Normally these holding pages have a link to purchase or make an enquiry. If you want to PM me the domain I can take a look for you.

c) How much should we expect to pay?
Pick a number between 1 and 1 million How much you should expect to pay is rather dependent on how much you are willing to pay.

 

[mobious]

As long as they dont try to pass themselves off as your business, there is little you can do, as OWG say's.

You bought the domain name 22 days before them - they may of traded 22 years before you. As OWG said no claim - they could even set up shop with what you do if they have been doing what you do for longer.

 

[EViS]

How do you know that they're not planning to do anything with the business/ domain and, genuinely are not aware of you?

This is an options, but incredibly unlikely seeing they purchased the domain only a few weeks after we did and the domain consists of our exact company name which as already mentioned, isn't much of an SEO keyword.

 

[EViS]

So, we can either get in touch with a very sympathetic email that we're an incredibly small business and that they purchased the name in bad faith. However, if their asking price still ends up being ridiculous and we refuse it, then they will never let the domain expire and remain in hope that one day we will come back and pay their fee.

Or we can just keep quiet and hope the domain expires next year. I'm just unsure how likely this is.

If we opt for option one, what is the best way to contact them. From an anonymous email and not let them know we own the .co.uk domain, although I would be amazed if they don't figure this out in an instant as it's such a specific url to our company name. Or just be straight up?

 

[Optegris]

I've replied to your PM with some advice

 

[TurricanII]

Has anyone here got experience of the ICANN Uniform Domain Name Dispute Resolution Policy? http://www.icann.org/en/help/dndr/udrp/policy

I looked into this briefly when looking to get hold of a dot com that was being sat on, but the cost was over £1000 to file an application. The part that made me think that cyber-squatters would be hit by this procedure was as below:
...
b. Evidence of Registration and Use in Bad Faith. For the purposes of Paragraph 4(a)(iii), the following circumstances, in particular but without limitation, if found by the Panel to be present, shall be evidence of the registration and use of a domain name in bad faith:

(i) circumstances indicating that you have registered or you have acquired the domain name primarily for the purpose of selling, renting, or otherwise transferring the domain name registration to the complainant who is the owner of the trademark or service mark or to a competitor of that complainant, for valuable consideration in excess of your documented out-of-pocket costs directly related to the domain name; or

(ii) you have registered the domain name in order to prevent the owner of the trademark or service mark from reflecting the mark in a corresponding domain name, provided that you have engaged in a pattern of such conduct; or

(iii) you have registered the domain name primarily for the purpose of disrupting the business of a competitor; or

(iv) by using the domain name, you have intentionally attempted to attract, for commercial gain, Internet users to your web site or other on-line location, by creating a likelihood of confusion with the complainant's mark as to the source, sponsorship, affiliation, or endorsement of your web site or location or of a product or service on your web site or location.
...

You can read through the decisions on the various dispute resolution provider websites (lots of Google and Microsoft entries where they are taking control of domains left right and centre!)

You can probably find someone who is well versed in this process to do it for you.

 

[Optegris]

But it will more than likely cost more to dispute than the domain is worth...

 

[TurricanII]

But it will more than likely cost more to dispute than the domain is worth...

Was that a reply to me? I think the ICANN costs are relatively fixed, prescribed in the area of £700 to £1200, if you fill out the form yourself.

What is a domain worth? The ICANN cost is certainly more than a registration fee, but without being able to quantify how much trade could be lost or how much it would cost to rebrand at this stage, it is pretty tough to say that the domain is not worth it.

 

[Optegris]

But this is not a primary domain. The UK variant is the brand, the .com is secondary.

 

[Suzuki]

But this is not a primary domain. The UK variant is the brand, the .com is secondary.

You'll still lose a lot of type in traffic to the .com.

 

[ZedS]

The painful truth is you are stuck. I am in the same situation (except that I brought the .co.uk without checking beforehand to see if the .com domain was available - it wasn't). I am now just hoping that the domain will expire, and also working on my SEO so that when my company is searched for, my .co.uk domain will show in search results before the .com domain.

As one of the replies mentioned earlier, you will probably lose a decent amount of traffic to the .com domain but even more reason to make your website stand out so people don't forget so easily (maybe create a jingle and emphasise the '.co.uk' lol)

 

[dolphinformations]

The last thing you want to do is tell them you own the .co.uk! That will in most cases hike the price up instantly, I would email from a gmail/etc account which isn't linked to you/your business and simply ask if they'd sell it to you for 150 quid.. and go from there.
They may have reg'd it without any plans to develop, don't know until you ask!

Sent from my HTC One X using UK Business Forums

 

[PrestonLad]

I don't know the legalities... though I suspect the early advice was correct. But what to do? Obviously, we don't know all the circumstances but...

If you think you're going to really make this business fly, invest well in it, then you probably need to acquire the .com early. Before your success becomes too obvious. I think I'd make a direct approach and come across as the innocent little business. Small. Not cash rich. Made a mistake in not registering the .com and asking if they'd be prepared to sell for 50 dollars. They'll laugh their head off... but you'll have price-conditioned them.

After they give you a much much bigger figure, and a bit of feigning of horror, you can play dumb and make it seem like anything above a thousand dollars in simply not worth it to you. Make out that you're a start-up business and you think you can live without the .com, but would ideally like it...That you may or may not succeed. So, if you offer (say) 1000 dollars cash, they have to choose whether or not to gamble. If you, a foreign start-up business that they know little about, becomes a bit hit, perhaps they can screw you for a lot more in the future... but on the other hand, your business might fail, and they get nothing. It gives you some power. Even if they decide to refuse your offer, you can walk away with a friendly offer for them to get in touch if they change their mind.

As long as your offer isn't too paltry, then it wouldn't be worth the gamble for them to continue holding out... you'd imagine. And if they are the sort of people who DO still hold out in those circumstances, then my guess is that they'd have held out for lots of cash in any circumstances... so whilst you might feel defeated, you'd probably have been defeated anyway.

On the other hand, if you make 'back-door' covert enquiries... that they will absolutely KNOW will have originated from you, then you're making yourself look very keen to get hold of it. I think you seriously strengthen their hand.

And the other approach.. If you hold out quietly hoping they let the registration lapse, then you live without the .com for a year (losing business and opportunity)... and if they don't let it lapse, then when you enquire, you will be in a weak position. It costs so little for them to retain ownership.

I don't speak from great experience in this area... and my suggestion of a 1000 dollar figure is, like the rest of my argument, just my gut feel. I don't envy you, but good luck on whatever path you choose.

 

[roythehandyman]

Unless you intend to market your business outside of the u.k, then I would not fret about it. There are endless (almost) domain endings out there, what if I purchased the .tv or .me or even .uk variant of your company name ? are you going to want to buy them off me ? I don't think so. Ignore them and get on with life. I only deal with customers in this country so .co.uk is just fine for me. I would not be remotely interested in a .com I am more interested in some serious S.E.O and making sure that I show up in google places. I wish you every good luck with your new venture.

 

[Vectis]

Why do you say

they purchased the name in bad faith.

The name was freely available, you chose not to buy it (for whatever reason). Another business bought it instead. I can't see where the 'bad faith' comes into it.

 

[Suzuki]

Why do you say





The name was freely available, you chose not to buy it (for whatever reason). Another business bought it instead. I can't see where the 'bad faith' comes into it.

Because someone made an idiotic mistake, that doesn't mean anything that happens after that can't be 'bad faith'. Thats like saying a burglar was entitled to steal your car as you left the keys in the ignition.

If the domain name is a totally random made up brand name then its pretty clear that it is a bad faith registration if someone with no connection to that name or brand goes and buys the .com immediately after you buy the .co.uk.

The problem is its more expensive to chase after getting the domain back, than it is to buy it for a low price. The person who buys these up knows this, and thats why they do it.

I'd offer him $100 and tell him you know you made a mistake, and that if he doesn't take your offer you'll just pick a new domain and buy the .co.uk and .com this time, which leaves him with a $10 loss rather than a $90 profit.

 

[MartCactus]

If you haven't started trading from the dotcouk name I would look at whether you can purchase another name/variant that is available in both .com and .co.uk

In a year they may let the .com lapse if they see the .co.uk isn't in use.

 

[Talay]

I have one .co.uk where the .com is due to fall off registration early next year but it won't be available even then.

Why ? well, another .co.uk and .com I have and no longer need have just been left to expire and they still haven't, some 10 months after the expiration date.

Of course I have had a thousand emails asking to re-register them but I truly have no need.

All I am saying is that if you see expiry in Dec 2013, don't bank on getting it anytime before 2015.

As mentioned, perhaps better to change names.

 

[Deleted member 61074]

In a year they may let the .com lapse if they see the .co.uk isn't in use.

And they might not, esp if they make more money than the cost of registration on the holding page.

You need to make a decision to launch on the co.uk only or find a different name.

Personally i feel there are so many domain extensions to buy nowadays that it is unrealistic to cover all of them, ie i know people who buy co.uk co com org ltd me etc etc unnecessarily. And we now have the auctions for .pizza .car .restaurant etc etc.

I also suspect less UK businesses use/register com for a UK business.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Unless you intend to market your business outside of the u.k, then I would not fret about it. There are endless (almost) domain endings out there, what if I purchased the .tv or .me or even .uk variant of your company name ? are you going to want to buy them off me ? I don't think so. Ignore them and get on with life. I only deal with customers in this country so .co.uk is just fine for me. I would not be remotely interested in a .com I am more interested in some serious S.E.O and making sure that I show up in google places. I wish you every good luck with your new venture.

60 Million people in the uK, 200 million in Europe

.co.uk works well, most aware of it, great with search engines, unless you really need to send to USA then why bother