Am I being unreasonable? Unrealistic expectations?

[Fill-Your-World]

Hi guys,

Sorry for the long post but could really use a rant, and some impartial opinions on my situation. We took on our first full time staff last May, and initially the decision was a god-send as I had my second child in June so life became pretty hectic! However, it has not been all smooth sailing and I have reached the point now where I am very physically and mentally stressed about her performance. I think this has been exacerbated by the fact that we took on another part time member of staff a month ago, who is perfection and it has made me realise just how bad things are with the other staff member!
We intially took her on to help with customer service, order processing and general day to day helping me out. However, due to lack of product knowledge, nervousness on the phone and weak writing skills I dropped her from customer service. She also makes numerous mistakes in the order packing, which lead to un implementing a 'double check' system for all orders. This in my view is a time waste, which shouldnt be necessary (I used the run the business single handed and never sent an order out with a mistake)

Even with the double check system however, sometimes mistake still gets through, especially when the only other person available to check the orders is not fully familiar with the line of products as they work in other areas. Her response to my recent frustration at the mistakes that have gone out was 'maybe we need to start triple checking?!'

She has been with us since May, she knows the product lines and the mistakes are purely just lack of concentration.

Due to increased pressures on my end and increased work load I decided that I needed her to start managing the inventory and ordering from suppliers. This is also proving a disaster, so now I need to take this role back on.

She gets the bus into the office, and most days arrives late. Sometimes up to 45 minutes late. For a while after my second child was born, it was harder for us to get to the office for 9am so we usually arrived in at 9.30ish. Now we have started getting there for 9am again it would seem that for the past few months she has been taking advantage and also not arriving in until late and she knew we wouldnt know about it. The mail man commented to me last week that there is never normally anyone in to sign for packages in the morning, and he is never there before 9am....

As of today I have started to keep a written record of errors and misconduct, here is a list of just those things I can recall at the moment from the past month:

31.01.11 - Arrival time 9.45am

03.02.11- Arrival time 9.30am

07.02.11- Orders not dispatched in the system

14.01.11 - 2 orders received for Out of Stock items. Another product found to be displaying as Out of Stock incorrectly.

16.01.11- Product required in a supplier order that was not ordered.

17.02.11- Arrival time 9.45am

18.02.11- Item sent to the wrong customer

21.02.11- Mistake made in supplier order for Product required that we placed the entire order for, but this was not ordered or received.

21.01.11- Product shown as Out of Stock incorrectly.

22.02.11- Order sent out with 2 mistakes

23.02.11- Orders not dispatched in system

This isnt including orders picked incorrectly that were spotted during the checks (these are daily)

Are my expectations too high, or am I right in feeling frustration at what is going on?

 

[Fuzzy]

In my opinion you need to say goodbye to her, with the correct procedure of course. Wasting your time on this is costing you money, you simply cannot afford to have someone like that on board.

Hugs

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Why do you even need to ask? Get rid as soon as possible. Some people would be sacked or heavily disciplined for the recurring lateness alone.

 

[woodss]

Is she young by any chance? She probably doesn't 'care' enough about her job and has her mind elsewhere.

I'd start with the disciplinary process. Verbal, written, final written, then dismissal (or however it goes, someone will be here shortly to explain).

If she's not up to the job, she needs to be dealt with (especially as she's still in the first year) as it sounds like she's detrimental to the business.

 

[yankee candleman]

Can you say to her that any errors in packaging must be made up from her own pocket?

Also, start the disciplinary for her lateness and productvity.

Cut her hours if you feel you can get away with it, I had to do that with some staff and now only offer 4 hours a week contracts in case they do exactly what your member of staff is doing.

 

[Fill-Your-World]

Oh yes and I forgot to mention, she is also a member of the family (!) I know I know....never should have gone there!

She is young yes, 21, and she often comments on how tired she is (up all night playing games consoles) and also texts alot whilst at work.

I think she just thinks she can get away with it (well, she has got away with it so far!) so is taking advantage....

I do also just think that is in incompetence as well though. Some days she has time with not much to do (whereas if she was more capable in other areas I would have a list as long as my arm of things she could be doing)

I worry though that if she were to leave, would I even find someone who was capable of doing the job to my satisfaction... I guess hence why I needed that impartial view as to whether it was me just having unrealistic expectation or not! (but it seems not!)

 

[woodss]

Well no, and I think since you're good enough to give her a job in these hard times, she should value your business enough to make a good go of it - after all, it's paying for her phone top-ups...

It's not unreasonable - fair enough everyone has off-days, but that list is pretty much showing that she's consistently crap!

It's about self-responsibility at the end of the day - What's more important? having a job, or staying up an extra hour to play on the Xbox?

 

[yankee candleman]

If she is family that makes it worse.

You just need to say to her "STOP!" and tell her that as a family member she needs to be more concientious to your business needs. Have a chat with her and ban mobiles from the shop floor. (We do, their family have the shop number for emergencies.) make her fill out a work diary to show what she does and also a checksheet for the orders she packs. If she can not complete a simple check sheet then you have to let her go. Faimly or not.

Tough choice to make but sounds like she is taking the mick out of you and if she has to really work for a living it may scare her.

I have had two members of family do work experience with me. One was fantastic the other lazy and rubbish. I gave him a job of sorting out about 4000 items into the four different sizes so I could sell them by weight. When someone purchased a bag I noticed one was the wrong size, when empting the bag I noticed all of them were different sizes. When I asked him how this happened he said he "Got bored!"

His work experience finished that day and his family were very understanding when I approached them about it. Hopefully hers will be.

 

[Parthelan]

Have you a disciplinary procedure in place? IF not you need to get one in place stat.
Have you given her regular formal supervision? Set clear work standards and expectations for her?
If not, you need to start now - it's important you go through the correct procedures, correctly, to prevent her from slapping some sort of unfair dismissal claim against you. She might still do that, but if youve followed the correct procedures, she wont have a case.
She's going to take up a bit of your time, but in the end you will either get her into shape, or be able to manage her out.

 

[LicensedToTrade]

I was very surprised to see all the opinions from members of this forum who suggested that this employee needs getting rid of, despite the fact the fact that the OP has clearly fallen short of what it means to be a successful people manager.

Nowhere in the original post is there evidence of performance management, coaching, training, disciplinary procedure. My opinion is that 90% of people start their day off with the thought 'I am going to do a good job today', performance generally drops off as a result of poor management.

You certainly need to look closer to home for the potential sources of these problems. Here is what I saw from your original post:

We took on our first full time staff last May, and initially the decision was a god-send

I had my second child in June so life became pretty hectic

YOUR personal stress

I have reached the point now where I am very physically and mentally stressed about her performance

YOUR personal stress

we took on another part time member of staff a month ago, who is perfection

Sounds like the girl when she started out doesn't it?

it has made me realise just how bad things are with the other staff member!

Why has it taken you so long to notice?

We intially took her on to help with customer service, order processing and general day to day helping me out

due to lack of product knowledge, nervousness on the phone and weak writing skills I dropped her from customer service

Massive motivational blow. What training and coaching had you provided to remedy this in the first instance? Why did you hire her for this position if she didn't have the relevant knowledge? Wasn't it unrealistic to expect her to carry out the role?

She has been with us since May, she knows the product lines and the mistakes are purely just lack of concentration.

Does she know the products or not?

Due to increased pressures on my end and increased work load I decided that I needed her to start managing the inventory and ordering from suppliers. This is also proving a disaster, so now I need to take this role back on.

So because you are under personal stress you moved her from the position she was hired for, identified that she wasn't coping with the new duties and aimed to resolve this by dumping more work onto her without addressing the existing issues?

She gets the bus into the office, and most days arrives late. Sometimes up to 45 minutes late. For a while after my second child was born, it was harder for us to get to the office for 9am so we usually arrived in at 9.30ish

Lead by example and they will follow. Have you spoken to her about the lateness? Have you told her you are logging her arrival times?

As of today I have started to keep a written record of errors and misconduct, here is a list of just those things I can recall at the moment from the past month:

Is this to build a case for dismissal or as an aid for you to provide performance management? Where do you record all of the things she does well?

Look, it is pretty critical I know and I am not trying to have a go for the sake of it. My point is that there is usually more going on than meets the eye and blame can be incorrectly apportioned. It sounds like you need to sit down with this girl and work out a programme to improve things.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

I was very surprised to see all the opinions from members of this forum who suggested that this employee needs getting rid of, despite the fact the fact that the OP has clearly fallen short of what it means to be a successful people manager.

Life is just too short, I think. The OP said this:

I think this has been exacerbated by the fact that we took on another part time member of staff a month ago, who is perfection and it has made me realise just how bad things are with the other staff member!

Which proves that there are people out there who will work to a good standard without being looked after every step of the way.

Business is business. If an employee doesn't have the respect or attitude to work to an acceptable standard on their own, then it gets to a point where it's in the businesses interests to get rid. The job can then be given to someone who appreciates it enough to work hard.

Plus, there are some things you just can't 'train' or 'manage'. Arriving very late for work because she knows that she won't get caught is a core attitude problem which can't be fixed.

Mind you, I do agree to an extent. It isn't always as black and white as it appears. Employees do have a responsibility to manage properly. However, there are ample cases where employees have an attitude problem which can't be remedied. When that happens, you have to feel for the many people desperately looking for a job who are willing to appreciate the opportunity and work very hard.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

Some very valid points from LTT, but I'm afraid I would go with the majority on this one and get rid of her. I wouldn't bother with the verbal, written, final written, then dismissal steps though - less than one year's service, so you could dismiss for poor performance without the formalities.

If you wanted to give her a chance (as she is family) discuss your concerns with her and give her the chance to improve, but bear in mind the one year rule - it is expected to change to two years after April, but better not to rely on that.


Karl Limpert

 

[LicensedToTrade]

Which proves that there are people out there who will work to a good standard without being looked after every step of the way.

Read my quotes and comments again. The OP also said that the girl in question was a 'god-send' whe she started, just as he described the new employee as 'perfection' despite the fact that they have only been there for one month. New employees tend to have much higher levels of enthusiasm when they first start a job, particularly the young ones. Poor people management will see this enthusiasm decay at an alarming rate. I'd like to see what how close to getting the sack this new employee is when he has been there for 12 months.

Scott, can I ask how many people you employ and how much experience you have in developing individuals who are under-performing?

It is a generally accepted truth that it if managed properly and early on, it is easier and more productive to make efforts to correct the performance of an existing employee instead of hiring a new one. Existing employees are known quantities, new employees are not.

 

[LicensedToTrade]

Some very valid points from LTT, but I'm afraid I would go with the majority on this one and get rid of her. I wouldn't bother with the verbal, written, final written, then dismissal steps though - less than one year's service, so you could dismiss for poor performance without the formalities.

If you wanted to give her a chance (as she is family) discuss your concerns with her and give her the chance to improve, but bear in mind the one year rule - it is expected to change to two years after April, but better not to rely on that.


Karl Limpert

From the rather limited information available to us I can appreciate where this view comes from as we can all no-doubt see this person as a reflection of someone we have dealt with in our own lives.

But as is usual with these things, most of us with any guts will pick a side of the fence to fall on and I feel compelled to fall on the side of performance management rather than seek to dismiss.

Who knows, this employee may well be completely incapable of improvement but what is apparent is that the OP has some management issues to address in order to avoid a similar situation arising in the future.

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

The OP also said that the girl in question was a 'god-send' whe she started, just as he described the new employee as 'perfection' despite the fact that they have only been there for one month.

I read things differently, as I read

We took on our first full time staff last May, and initially the decision was a god-send as I had my second child in June so life became pretty hectic!

as meaning the decision to take on an employee was a god-send (under the circumstances – becoming a parent), not that this particular employee was a god-send.

It is a generally accepted truth that it if managed properly and early on, it is easier and more productive to make efforts to correct the performance of an existing employee instead of hiring a new one. Existing employees are known quantities, new employees are not.

Managed properly & early on may not have been as practical in the circumstances. There is a good argument to consider reaping something back for the investment of training, but some staff simply have the wrong attitude to work, and with employment conditions as they are, I would think employers for roles like this could afford to be picky.

As a known quantity, the knowledge would lend to the idea of moving this one on.

Scott, can I ask how many people you employ...?

I think the answer to this is available from Scott elsewhere on the forum, but it doesn’t really take away his right to a view or input on a thread like this, and to be honest LTT, you should know better!



Karl Limpert

 

[Parthelan]

Some very valid points from LTT, but I'm afraid I would go with the majority on this one and get rid of her. I wouldn't bother with the verbal, written, final written, then dismissal steps though - less than one year's service, so you could dismiss for poor performance without the formalities.

If you wanted to give her a chance (as she is family) discuss your concerns with her and give her the chance to improve, but bear in mind the one year rule - it is expected to change to two years after April, but better not to rely on that.


Karl Limpert

I just thanked you for your post, but it wasnt for your post, it was for your signature
(Consistency - ya know I luv ya really )

 

[adventurelife]

This may not help but think about your interviewing style. I have changed mine over the years and I have recruited hundreds of people.

Even if the individual is someone I think can do a great job for us, I make it very, very clear that if they do not prove

1. Trustworthy and reliable
2. Good at what they do

They will be shown the door.

This has cost me people at the recruiting stage but better then than latter on when you have to get rid.

Recruiting good team members is without doubt the hardest task in business. So do not be hard on yourself for getting it wrong just get rid and move on.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Read my quotes and comments again. The OP also said that the girl in question was a 'god-send' whe she started

The OP didn't say that at all. She said:

We took on our first full time staff last May, and initially the decision was a god-send as I had my second child in June so life became pretty hectic!

She said the decision to employ an extra pair of hands was a god send, as we can safely presume that this employee is capable of doing some work to an average level. She didn't say that the girl herself was a god-send or that she was a god-send specifically when she started.

, just as he described the new employee as 'perfection' despite the fact that they have only been there for one month. New employees tend to have much higher levels of enthusiasm when they first start a job, particularly the young ones. Poor people management will see this enthusiasm decay at an alarming rate. I'd like to see what how close to getting the sack this new employee is when he has been there for 12 months.

All assumptions, really. None of us can say for sure (or anywhere near sure) that this current employee started out brilliantly and declined due to bad management. We also can't say that this new employee will do the same.

Let's stick to the present facts, shall we? She's under-performing, she clearly has an attitude problem and she's doing things which shouldn't have to be managed and 'coached' in the first place (such as arriving very late because she knows she won't be caught - it's mischievous and highly disrespectful).

You get people who do that, and you get people who don't. Employ the people who don't, and business life can be made much easier.

Scott, can I ask how many people you employ and how much experience you have in developing individuals who are under-performing?

None. However, I can spot common sense when I see it.

It is a generally accepted truth that it if managed properly and early on, it is easier and more productive to make efforts to correct the performance of an existing employee instead of hiring a new one. Existing employees are known quantities, new employees are not.

That will not count for every situation, so it's a risk. Is it a risk worth taking? Who knows.

In my view, if the employee is under-performing and knowingly being deceptive (by turning up late) then a bad attitude problem exists which a lot of other people simply don't have. Instead of wasting more time and producing more stress trying to fix a problem which shouldn't need to be fixed in the first place, the OP could take advantage of the fact that she can sack the employee without any formalities and find someone who appreciates the opportunity.

Mind you, I think that would be very harsh to do straight away. If it were me, I'd provide a clear-cut warning to give the employee one more chance and let her voice her own concerns. I wouldn't hold out much hope though from what I have read.

 

[MH1]

I would have a frank discussion with her, outline your concerns, detail the improvement required and outline the timeframe and most importantly state her working times and explain the consequences of not keeping to those times. Then ask her what she feels she needs from you to attain the standard you require.

I think LTT has made some very valid points, most staff require motivation and guidance, most employers find this as hard to do as recruiting good staff.

 

[steve23]

Oh, not good - how close a family member is it ?

I employed my brother once and he was terrible - I had to work twice as hard to cover for him, but felt there was little else I could do.

My mum was happy he was working at last, and given all the years my family have carried me, (not forgetting the 9 months my mum literally did !) I decided I would just stick with it and make do.

Anyway, I knew my brother would get bored in the end and wander off elsewhere - so problem solved in the end !

All the best

Steve

 

[SillyJokes]

Again I feel for you. In small business it is easy for others to suggest you are the poor manager but miss the point that you are not a 'manager' at all but something different altogether. You probably haven't received the 'management training' others working for a large concern may have.

Small businesses need their staff to work efficiently because they can't afford to carry people who consistantly make errors or don't work hard. They don't have the resources to make a silk purse out of a sows ear. You know in your heart whether it's worth trying to help someone do better or not.

I think by the time the OP has posted here it's gone beyond training and warning meetings. You have to learn that very hard lesson that just because you pay someone it doesn't mean they like you and want to do stuff for you.

Family member or not you need to move her on. You don't have to be nasty about the way you let her go. Just explain that it isn't working out and you need to let her go. She might even thank you for it.

Perhaps another member of the family could take her on?

edit to say you should have systems in your warehouse where no one packs what they have picked to keep errors to a minimum. I can pick and pack for myself all day with no errors, but my husband couldn't pick his nose! Staff are incredibly variable in their accuracy so you absolutely must have a one picks and the other packs routine.

 

[JamesHall174]

You cannot just say that because it is a small business you shouldn't need to manage people, its even more important.

I think there are a number of factors at work here

- the recruitment process was probably flawed, did the person mainly get the job because they were family? If that is the case it is understandable but naive
- there appears to have been a lack of management. Its easy to judge others by your own standards and just say 'they should know that is unacceptable' but in this day and age you need to set clear ground rules and expectations and then monitor that performance and offer coaching etc

All of that said one thing alone stands out as unacceptable to me - lateness - but, why-oh-why let this go on so long, have you ever told them this is unacceptable.

I have always tried to fair with employees when there is a valid reason but if there is not then this alone, if constantly repeated, would mean goodbye for me.

 

[deniser]

I had such a sense of deja vu when I read your post as we have been exactly in the same position except that, 6 months down the line, we still think our young employee still is a godsend.

The things you mention though happen to us too (except the lateness) but we have had to change our working practices to accommodate the fact that someone who works for you is never going to be as good as the owner of the business and I think you have to accept that.

Picking - We also suffer an error rate of at least 2 items per day so we instigated a double check system with either one person picking and another packing or a second person checking what the first has picked before the packing takes place.

Like you, we didn't make mistakes but when I pick and pack, I know I triple check myself and I just don't think you can get an employee to do that.

So I don't think a double checking system is unreasonable.

We then have a further check with two people going through the orders each day to make sure they have been fully dealt with and despatched by the correct method before they are marked as despatched on the system.

As for standards of literacy, these seem to be be appalling for young people universally, whether they have left school or university. We have created some standard template responses to the usual questions so they can copy and paste and we are not sending out emails with poor punctuation, spelling and grammar. Again, maybe you could instigate a procedure to help?

Suppliers - I produce the list which she orders from - I would not let her decide what to order.

Phone manner - I understand nervousness on the phone and this takes practice to overcome. Again, could you give her a list of the most common questions and answers to learn and then let her practice. I know it is irritating when someone is nervous to start with but they do need to practise talking to customers. I think she could really benefit from some training here.

Lateness is the worst factor here. Have you spoken to her about it? Why don't you tell her that any lateness in the morning has to be made up at the other end of the day? Could it be the fault of the bus company? Ours can be very unreliable here and some only run once an hour and if they cancel that bus there is little one can do.

If I were you I would change some of your systems and see if she can work better within them before you let her go. Apart from the lateness I don't think there is anything too bad that can't be sorted out. Picking and packing all day is also tedious; can you give her some more interesting tasks as well to make the day more interesting and renew her enthusiasm?

 

[LicensedToTrade]

You cannot just say that because it is a small business you shouldn't need to manage people, its even more important.

I think there are a number of factors at work here

- the recruitment process was probably flawed, did the person mainly get the job because they were family? If that is the case it is understandable but naive
- there appears to have been a lack of management. Its easy to judge others by your own standards and just say 'they should know that is unacceptable' but in this day and age you need to set clear ground rules and expectations and then monitor that performance and offer coaching etc

All of that said one thing alone stands out as unacceptable to me - lateness - but, why-oh-why let this go on so long, have you ever told them this is unacceptable.

I have always tried to fair with employees when there is a valid reason but if there is not then this alone, if constantly repeated, would mean goodbye for me.

Spot on. A well balanced view on this.

 

[oldeagleeye]

I am with LTT on this. While this employee is not that young she stepped in to help a member of the family out which despite her long first post the OP was reluctant to mention. It matters not unless the girl is sacked but before that I think that both parties ought to go back to square one and that means making it clear that when they both walk thru that office door their personal relationship ceases and a business one begins.

Ist priority is a job describtion outlining each others duties. If they are varied on the part of the employee then the OP needs to know what she is comfortable with and if not what training is needed. Lets face it there is a hell of a lot of difference between being shown the rope quickly and being expected to get on with it. The way this girl probably sees it is that your bound to make mistakes being plunged in at the deep end and as they haven't been formally piicked up dosen't realise how damaging mistakes are to the running of the company.

This applies to being late too and that is one aspect where family can be a nightmare. One deterrent is obviously to round up time lost and deduct from wages. In taking this route in order to avoid resentment the OP must make it clear this applies to her wages too. I personally prefer the 'team' player.

Each of the team in turn comes in 5-10mins early a day and puts the coffee on. Then at 0905 there is a 10 min meeting around the table to sort out the priorities of the day. A whiteboard or even a big calender on the wall helps here perhaps showing that 2 mistakes were made the day before. What returns there were that week etc.

In summary - before sacking the girls deserves proper training including being made aware that we are talking a business here - not a family jolly. I would also make the girl aware of any career oportunities because she may be thinking up you only pulled here in to help out.

Rob

 

[Naughty Vend]

It's the old classic never employ (utilise) family nor friends in any business dealings but there's always another side to a story, attitude can be created by example.

A few years ago we used a third party to handle our packing, logistics and despatch of orders - it was a fairly informal arrangement with a local small business - my business partner being the type of person he is formed a personal relationship with the owners of the providing business. The errors were constant and despite discussion and re-training as well as implementation of 'systems' which were arrogantly ignored, our losses exceeded the cost some months of using their company and as you'd expect because of the relationship formed my business partner disagreed we should move on to another provider. The relationship removed the professional aspect of the relationship and there's a massive difference between respect and friendship in business, personal involvement clouds the line between the two... however I was also at fault and this is where you need to look at yourselves.

By having the respect to as others have said, sit with this person and discuss your expectations not limited to the fact that as the business owner you will be in at 0930 but expect them to be in at 0900 without exception. Impliment workable systems and proceedures to follow, write them down and agree them with the worker(s) listening to any improvements that can be made. That's important because my error was to expect others to work at my pace and accuracy in the warehouse, they just were not up to it and I should have seen that as in your case should have you. Perhaps her attitude is a reflection upon how she sees you but doesn't understand what sacrafice you have made to be at this stage in your business evolution, explain it to her.

After all that if there's no improvement then train someone new. A managing directors job after all is... to manage... to direct...

 

[SillyJokes]

I'd agree that managing people is important, but usually it's a situation like this that turns you into a people manager when before you thought everything would swim along smoothly. Afterall, you're 'great to work for', right?

Handling a situation like this is a lesson in management which you will be unlikely to forget and hopefully you will become a better manager for it.

When someone starts a business often state they look forward to working for themselves. I doubt they ever say they look forward to helping other people become better employees.

You can do all the things suggested above to make the person work more efficiently for you but I'd do it rapidly so that you don't employ her longer than a year before deciding it isn't working out. After a year it will become much harder to ask her to leave. You will have to start all kinds of diciplinary proceedures which will much harder on family ties than simply terminating her contract because they will be painful and protracted.

One other thing to mention here is that at the moment you run the risk of loosing your new star employee. They will be noticing all the mistakes she makes, all the things that make their job that bit harder and they will resent it if you don't do something to 'manage' the situation. They will resent it even more because of the nepotism which will probably mean they would rather leave than bring problems to your attention.