Why are the Government threatening to make mask wearing in shops compulsory ?

[Mr D]

This here is the issue the BBC has - some people think it's biased one way and other think it is biased another way - both can't be right.

Extreme one side and extreme other side may each see the same news as too much the other way.

At one time the BBC had the reputation of telling the truth. That isn't the same as actually telling the truth of course...
Now …. at best its one of multiple places to get news. Some of which may be slanted a particular way. Words have meaning, use a different set of words to describe same event and can have different emotional impact.

 

[Mr D]

I watch CNN news each evening. Their presenters pretty much line up in a row and attack everything Trump does

It's not even subtle

We hardly support his every action on here so we can't really criticise a channel that does.

Seriously there is a portion of the American public who will like that sort of thing. The company caters to its customer base - just as many other companies do.

 

[RobinBHM]

This here is the issue the BBC has - some people think it's biased one way and other think it is biased another way - both can't be right.

The govt have been pushing a narrative claiming 'BBC bias' which gets repeated by Tory supporters.

This government is trying to control the media and prevent scrutiny, hence why it is attacking the BBC. The BBC is not more biased one way or the other,

 

[Ian J]

The govt have been pushing a narrative claiming 'BBC bias' which gets repeated by Tory supporters.

This government is trying to control the media and prevent scrutiny, hence why it is attacking the BBC. The BBC is not more biased one way or the other,

Spoken like a true socialist

 

[Newchodge]

Spoken like a true socialist

No a true socialist would ask about the media attacks on Corbyn the repeated resurrection of claims about terrorist links and anti-semitism, when those claims had no relevance whatsoever to the news of the day.

 

[Mr D]

No a true socialist would ask about the media attacks on Corbyn the repeated resurrection of claims about terrorist links and anti-semitism, when those claims had no relevance whatsoever to the news of the day.

Merely information that is relevant in a parliamentary leader and potential PM.

Still, terrorist links aren't so bad. We've done a state dinner for a convicted terrorist before without people complaining.

 

[Annoying Donkey]

 

[RobinBHM]

Spoken like a true socialist

Oh god no, totally not.

I'm no fan of Corbyn nor the socialist left who follow him like a messiah.

What annoys me with news programmes including the BBC is they have guests who appear to be 'experts', but are really from lobby or protest groups.

The BBC often have on Kate Andrews, Darren Grimes, Tom Harwood -who are just Right wing brexit shills. I know they also have on left wing activists at times too. Which is all fine, but the news programme should declares their guests interest rather than give the impression their views may not be objective.

 

[RobinBHM]

I'm not suggesting this guy got Covid because he didn't wear a mask, but maybe he did

"A politician who voted against mandatory face masks is currently hospitalized and critically ill with cornavirus. Paul Waldron, a commissioner for St Johns County in Florida, was in the ‘most critical of conditions’ and because of ‘complications from the virus, he went into septic shock and many organs are struggling,’ his daughter wrote on Facebook last week."



Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2020/07/12/poli...-critically-coronavirus-12980181/?ito=cbshare

 

[Interestedobserver]

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...19-could-be-worse-than-first-thought-12027348

Concerns about long term effects of Covid on some survivors including the young above

We have a friend aged 49 who was a school teacher and part time triathlete. She was the fittest 49 year old you could wish to meet. No underlying health issues.

She caught Covid early on. 3 months after "recovering" she can barely walk to her garden gate without having to sit down and catch her breath

She's been told she is now going to become an out patient at hospital alongside others in here region who are still struggling very badly months after catching Covid whilst they try and figure out the damage that has been done to her and try and help her etc

I think more of this will gradually emerge as people get their heads round what Covid can do to people both short term and long term

It's not just about living or dying

 

[Interestedobserver]

I'm not suggesting this guy got Covid because he didn't wear a mask, but maybe he did

"A politician who voted against mandatory face masks is currently hospitalized and critically ill with cornavirus. Paul Waldron, a commissioner for St Johns County in Florida, was in the ‘most critical of conditions’ and because of ‘complications from the virus, he went into septic shock and many organs are struggling,’ his daughter wrote on Facebook last week."



Read more: https://metro.co.uk/2020/07/12/poli...-critically-coronavirus-12980181/?ito=cbshare

All the people who want to discount the risk and seriousness of Covid should be volunteering to be guinea pigs for the vaccine trials

Allow themselves to be exposed to Covid and see if the vaccines work

Stand up and be counted etc

 

[Mark T Jones]

Extreme one side and extreme other side may each see the same news as too much the other way.

At one time the BBC had the reputation of telling the truth. That isn't the same as actually telling the truth of course...
Now …. at best its one of multiple places to get news. Some of which may be slanted a particular way. Words have meaning, use a different set of words to describe same event and can have different emotional impact.

Or indeed, how individuals choose to hear it.

for me, the only interesting thing about this thread is how well it demonstrates the ability of similar data to 'prove' opposing cases.

 

[Justin Smith]

Err no.

All these people on here who think and say “he’s talking ballcox, underplaying this virus”. I’m saying this virus is burning itself out, my pet theory (but there may be another explanation) is a high proportion of the population is not susceptible to it and most of those who are have had it. Whatever the reason I’m convinced all these very expensive measures we’re taking are having a minimal, or even zero, effect. So please answer these points :

1 – Diamond Princess , a ship with 3800 people on it a lot of whom were older (passenger av age was around 70) where the very infectious virus was free to spread (with no social distancing and the normal social events) for two weeks to the 3rd Feb. Only 17% caught it and only 8 to 14 died, the numbers vary according to source (poss because some don’t include probably deaths from other causes ? ), but it certainly wasn't over hundred which one could have expected had the governments advice from its big expert (Neil Ferguson, OBE no less....) been correct. It must be emphasised that the average age of the 2666 passengers was around 70, an age at which you are much more vulnerable to Covid.

2 – Our lockdown, the most draconian that could be introduced in a free democracy, was introduced on the 23rd Mar. For the first month or so it was quite well observed. The average time to die from catching the disease is 18 days. So if the lockdown was working we could have expected a big fall off in in early to mid April, but it didn’t happen.

3 – As people became less strict about the lockdown (road traffic increased significantly) we could have expected the death rate to go up, but it didn’t, it started going down. I’m not saying one caused the other I’m simply saying the lockdown was having a minimal effect on the death rate (but was having massively negative effect on society and the economy).

4 – We were told by “experts” that of we ease off the lockdown the death rate would go up, but it didn’t, it actually continued to go down.

5 – We were told by some “experts” that reopening the schools would result in a “second spike”. Not only was there no second spike the death rate actually continued to fall.

6 - No country in the world that has had deep exposure to this virus (as defined by a death rate of over 1 in 2000) has experienced a second spike as their lockdowns have been eased off. In all of them the death rate has continued to fall. Belgium is the best example, their death rate is now on the floor.

7 - The total death rate from all causes from mid June is now lower than the long term average. That wonderful piece of positive news should have been lead item on all news programmes, but wasn't. No big surprise there then.

Somebody said "what about the USA" ? Like it was supposed to disprove my theories.
This is the death rate for Now York, an area with a high death toll, i.e. an area with deep exposure to Covid :

And this is a graph for Florida, an area with a low death rate (so far...), or, to put it another way, a lower exposure to the virus :

Notice any obvious differences.......
It must be admitted that Now York has a very high death rate, 1670 per million, one of the highest in the world. As I've said before the US may well take a really big hit from this virus because (1) they have no nationalised health service (or the insurance equivalent), (2) they have a high freedom ethic, and (3) they have a large number of obese people who are at significantly greater risk of death from Covid.
Basically it's all yet more proof that forcing people to wear masks in shops will have no significant effect at all.

 

[Gordon - Commercial Finance]

Basically it's all yet more proof that forcing people to wear masks in shops will have no significant effect at all.

What gives you that idea? Firstly this concept of "deep exposure", how are you linking that with the wearing of masks?
Also, correlation does not prove causation.

 

[Mr D]

Somebody said "what about the USA" ? Like it was supposed to disprove my theories.
This is the death rate for Now York, an area with a high death toll, i.e. an area with deep exposure to Covid :

And this is a graph for Florida, an area with a low death rate (so far...), or, to put it another way, a lower exposure to the virus :

Notice any obvious differences.......
It must be admitted that Now York has a very high death rate, 1670 per million, one of the highest in the world. As I've said before the US may well take a really big hit from this virus because (1) they have no nationalised health service (or the insurance equivalent), (2) they have a high freedom ethic, and (3) they have a large number of obese people who are at significantly greater risk of death from Covid.
Basically it's all yet more proof that forcing people to wear masks in shops will have no significant effect at all.

Deaths follow infection but not on a set schedule. ie not 2 days after infection everyone who is going to die, dies.
Days, weeks even months later they die. Or recover, up to a point.

You are going on about masks in shops will have no significant effect at all - but you cannot, repeat cannot, know that.
How long have masks in shops been compulsory here? Yes, end of next week. How long have masks in shops been compulsory in some US states? Not long.

Its not your few facts I disagree with. Its your conclusions. You may end up being right, you may end up being wrong - so far I'd suggest your insistence on masks not making significant effect is ideology not fact.
Wait and see. And in the meantime as you have stated, stay out of shops.

Oh and winter is coming. Perhaps mask wearing will expand a lot - the virus can survive and even thrive in winter conditions. Wait for the government to tell you what to do - or learn in advance what else you can do to protect yourself and beat the government by months.
That goes for everyone else too. Wait for government to tell you to act - which may be after you die. Or protect yourself despite government.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Basically it's all yet more proof that forcing people to wear masks in shops will have no significant effect at all.

I stated wearing a mask in shops several weeks ago after I experienced several idiots not observing distance rules. One guy with a baby walked right into me. Another tapped me on the shoulder at close range to ask if I was in a queue. I found that wearing a mask reminded people that there is a pandemic on. So for me it has had the effect of stopping people breathing straight into my face.

 

[Bob Morgan]

Or indeed, how individuals choose to hear it.

for me, the only interesting thing about this thread is how well it demonstrates the ability of similar data to 'prove' opposing cases.

. . . and what shallow lives they appear to lead!

 

[Bob Morgan]

I found that wearing a mask reminded people that there is a pandemic on.

Four months ago, there would have been a robbery going on!

 

[Mr D]

Four months ago, there would have been a robbery going on!

Speaking of which, now you are allowed to go to the bank wearing a mask and ask the cashier for money!
Can even have a getaway car with driver outside ready for when you come out (my wife will give me a lift).

 

[Bob Morgan]

Speaking of which, now you are allowed to go to the bank wearing a mask and ask the cashier for money!
Can even have a getaway car with driver outside ready for when you come out (my wife will give me a lift).

Call Jeremy, we need a Transit outside!
2020! The year when you needed a Mask to visit the Bank and a Post Office! - And, The Sheeple OBEYED!

 

[Interestedobserver]

We will all be wearing masks in ALL indoor public places (that are still allowed to open) within the next month or so - mask wearing will gradually increase

France is having a spike in cases and has just announced the above - it will be the norm everywhere indoors before long

 

[Interestedobserver]

Somebody said "what about the USA" ? Like it was supposed to disprove my theories.
This is the death rate for Now York, an area with a high death toll, i.e. an area with deep exposure to Covid :

And this is a graph for Florida, an area with a low death rate (so far...), or, to put it another way, a lower exposure to the virus :

Notice any obvious differences.......
It must be admitted that Now York has a very high death rate, 1670 per million, one of the highest in the world. As I've said before the US may well take a really big hit from this virus because (1) they have no nationalised health service (or the insurance equivalent), (2) they have a high freedom ethic, and (3) they have a large number of obese people who are at significantly greater risk of death from Covid.
Basically it's all yet more proof that forcing people to wear masks in shops will have no significant effect at all.

Justin

New York and New Jersey currently are not allowing people from over 20 states to enter or leave the city without quarantine

They aren't allowing people to dine or drink indoors. They can only dine or drink in outdoor areas (thank God it's the summer there)

I think you will find many places in Europe are also only allowing outdoor dining and outdoor drinking when you look into what's working and what isn't working

In New York by law people have to wear masks in public anywhere where they can potentially come within 6 feet of each other

They are still very much in lockdown compared to the rest of the US and compared to what we are now allowing to happen

Despite that their new infections are now on the increase again

The states in the US which have relaxed lockdowns more than New York are the ones now having to re-impose lockdowns

If New York was operating anywhere near to normal then you could point to it as a success story. It isn't it's still very much in lockdown.

If anything New York is the example of how draconian lockdown has to remain in order just to try and keep new infections manageable. It's just a city on hold

"New York had 918 new cases of coronavirus confirmed on Thursday, the governor announced, in what he said was 'a reminder that the virus is still here'.

The grim new tally was the first time that new infections were above 900 since June 12."

 

[Bob Morgan]

Justin

New York and New Jersey currently are not allowing people from over 20 states to enter or leave the city without quarantine

They aren't allowing people to dine or drink indoors. They can only dine or drink in outdoor areas (thank God it's the summer there)

I think you will find many places in Europe are also only allowing outdoor dining and outdoor drinking when you look into what's working and what isn't working

In New York by law people have to wear masks in public anywhere where they can potentially come within 6 feet of each other

They are still very much in lockdown compared to the rest of the US and compared to what we are now allowing to happen

Despite that their new infections are now on the increase again

The states in the US which have relaxed lockdowns more than New York are the ones now having to re-impose lockdowns

If New York was operating anywhere near to normal then you could point to it as a success story. It isn't it's still very much in lockdown.

If anything New York is the example of how draconian lockdown has to remain in order just to try and keep new infections manageable. It's just a city on hold.

Can we have the Budgies, Charlie? - Until Jeremy comes around with the Transit?

 

[Mr D]

Call Jeremy, we need a Transit outside!
2020! The year when you needed a Mask to visit the Bank and a Post Office! - And, The Sheeple OBEYED!

How long before I can go around in a burkha?
I might feel feminine one of these days.

 

[Bob Morgan]

How long before I can go around in a burkha?
I might feel feminine one of these days.

I just sent off for the Alien 'Clamp On' Mask!

 

[alan1302]

QUOTE="Mr D, post: 3027461, member: 282897"]How long before I can go around in a burkha?
I might feel feminine one of these days.[/QUOTE]

Ypu can do anytime you like MrD

 

[simon field]

I’ve got meself one of those big horse head masks!

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Anyone who thinks New York resembles Florida has never been there.

 

[Mr D]

Anyone who thinks New York resembles Florida has never been there.

Of course we have never been there. Otherwise we'd be using LA and New York.
Or Illinois and Florida.

 

[Mr D]

QUOTE="Mr D, post: 3027461, member: 282897"]How long before I can go around in a burkha?
I might feel feminine one of these days.

Ypu can do anytime you like MrD[/QUOTE]

May try it this winter. One way to avoid being stopped by the police for Walking while Black.

 

[Interestedobserver]

Anyone who thinks New York resembles Florida has never been there.

Having been to both numerous times I would have thought Florida was way more suited to controlling the virus long term than New York

 

[Justin Smith]

Deaths follow infection but not on a set schedule. ie not 2 days after infection everyone who is going to die, dies.
Days, weeks even months later they die. Or recover, up to a point.

You are going on about masks in shops will have no significant effect at all - but you cannot, repeat cannot, know that.
How long have masks in shops been compulsory here? Yes, end of next week. How long have masks in shops been compulsory in some US states? Not long.

Its not your few facts I disagree with. Its your conclusions. You may end up being right, you may end up being wrong - so far I'd suggest your insistence on masks not making significant effect is ideology not fact.
Wait and see. And in the meantime as you have stated, stay out of shops.

Oh and winter is coming. Perhaps mask wearing will expand a lot - the virus can survive and even thrive in winter conditions. Wait for the government to tell you what to do - or learn in advance what else you can do to protect yourself and beat the government by months.
That goes for everyone else too. Wait for government to tell you to act - which may be after you die. Or protect yourself despite government.

It seems to me that one of two things apply.

Either this virus is not as infectious as we've been told and all this social distancing is actually doing something (in some ways the Diamond Princess supports the theory that the virus isn't as infectious as they say it is, remember only 17% contracted it).
or
The virus is as infectious as they say it is, that is to say very infectious, and all this social distancing etc is doing very little to alter the final death toll (but at massive social and economic damage).

All the death rate graphs support the latter, but with the positive that, it seems, a high proportion of the population is not susceptible to it. The Diamond Princess, counter intuitively, could support either, but indicates that one of the above two theories has to be true.

 

[Justin Smith]

One minor positive of the government's edict that we will all have to wear face coverings in shops, and, even worse, "for the foreseeable future" (i.e. there is no time limited objective measure when this will be rolled back).
After the Labour party came out in favour of it, for one brief moment between Gove hinting it would not become mandatory, and this government insisting it would be, I could, for the first time in my life, have seen myself voting Tory. That's how angry I am.
At least I'm spared that.

 

[RobinBHM]

, and all this social distancing etc is doing very little to alter the final death toll

The lockdown and social distancing brought the R value down and stopped the NHS being totally overwhelmed.

You seem to be glossing over the 100s of thousands of deaths that would've occurred had there been no lockdown

If the UK had acted faster, stopped all flights and had a proper test and trace such a high level of economic damage wouldn't have happened.

This country has suffered high death rate and high economic damage because its govt is driven by greed, lies and spin. There's a reason why right wing populist govts around the world have performed the worst.

Sadly economic chaos whether caused by politics, like brexit or by nature by a virus both lead to opportunities for wealth creation.

 

[Ian J]

Sadly economic chaos whether caused by politics, like brexit or by nature by a virus both lead to opportunities for wealth creation.

I am obviously missing something so would you be good enough to explain what opportunities for wealth creation there are during this pandemic

 

[Deleted member 59730]

the Diamond Princess supports the theory that the virus isn't as infectious as they say it is, remember only 17% contracted it

Must be a different Diamond Princess than the one I've read about. 17% of people isolated in their cabins for days with food left outside their doors looks pretty bad to me.

 

[Justin Smith]

The lockdown and social distancing brought the R value down and stopped the NHS being totally overwhelmed.

You seem to be glossing over the 100s of thousands of deaths that would've occurred had there been no lockdown

If the UK had acted faster, stopped all flights and had a proper test and trace such a high level of economic damage wouldn't have happened.

This country has suffered high death rate and high economic damage because its govt is driven by greed, lies and spin. There's a reason why right wing populist govts around the world have performed the worst.

Sadly economic chaos whether caused by politics, like brexit or by nature by a virus both lead to opportunities for wealth creation.

There would not have been "100s of thousands of deaths" had we not locked down, all the evidence supports my contention, from the Diamond Princess to all the death rate graphs.
When all the data is in on this nightmare (and I mean the lockdown and social distancing just as much as the virus) we'll see who is right, you or me. I'll go further, I think it will be concluded that this lockdown has been a terrible mistake
Tell you what, do you want to put a little sportsman's bet on it, say £10 ? To be collected (either way) in say two years, or before if definitive conclusions have been drawn. PM me.

 

[fisicx]

It seems to me that one of two things apply.

Or a combination of both.

All anyone can do is model expected outcomes and plan accordingly. As more data becomes available The model can be adjusted and planning updated. Nobody knows what will happen. We may get a rise in cases over winter, we may not. But to not make plans would be foolish. What we don’t know is if the model is correct.

 

[Justin Smith]

Must be a different Diamond Princess than the one I've read about. 17% of people isolated in their cabins for days with food left outside their doors looks pretty bad to me.

Wikipedia "Diamond Princess" Coronavirus outbreak :

"An 80-year-old passenger from Hong Kong, China, had embarked in Yokohama on 20 January. He had been in Shenzhen, Guangdong Province, China on 10 January, then returned to Hong Kong and flew to Tokyo on 17 January to board the ship. He developed a cough on 19 January, but he went on board. He left the cruise when the ship reached Hong Kong on 25 January."

"but the ship did not immediately inform the passengers and they were notified about that on 3 February, two days later. Over the next few days, the cruise ship had shows and dance parties as usual and also continued to open public facilities that attract large crowds, including fitness clubs, theatres, casinos, bars and buffet-style restaurants"

"On 4 February, tests revealed infections of 10 out of 31 people tested. The authorities immediately decided to isolate all passengers on board for 14 days"

17 Jan to 4 Feb = 18 days
Highly infectious virus, 3777 people socialising on a ship, 2666 were passengers with an av age of 69. Only 17% caught the virus and "only" 8 to 14 died (figures vary according to source). If Neil Ferguson "OBE" * was right between 100 and 150 "should" have died. He's only out by a factor of about ten.....

* His alarming estimate of "up to half a million deaths" was based on everyone in the UK catching this virus (it is very infectious, so we're told) and 1% (on average) dying. This was NEVER going to happen anyway, because even I (an arch opponent of the lockdown) have always said that the most vulnerable should self isolate so the death rate would have been way under half a million. But, as it happens, he was way out on his 1% death rate prediction anyway.
Adjusted for age the death rate on the DP was about the same as we have in the UK now, and that's why the death rate is falling despite the lockdown easing off (unofficially at first) for months. This fall off in the death rate has got comparatively little to do with all this social distancing and lockdown. As I said, we'll see who is right, me or Neil Ferguson OBE.

 

[Annoying Donkey]

I am obviously missing something so would you be good enough to explain what opportunities for wealth creation there are during this pandemic

“Look and you will find it - what is unsought will go undetected.”
Sophocles

There's opportunity everywhere...
Supermarkets without supplies, e.g. Bog rolls, hand sanitiser, pasta, eggs, etc...
Wholesalers to cruise ships, airlines, hotels, restaurants whose market has disappeared overnight.
Put the two together...

But I suspect that's not what RobinBMH is referring to...