Why are the Government threatening to make mask wearing in shops compulsory ?

[Bob Morgan]

So, the mask does not have to be a Medical Mask - Does that mean I can wear a Stocking Mask when I go to the Bank or the Post Office?

 

[Justin Smith]

I don't think so.

The virus is in the community, once people become sufficiently complacent the virus will spread again.

And for that reason, your argument that it can only be one or the other doesn't work. If the focus is only on the economy, the infection rate could spiral overwhelming the NHS and would force a total lockdown.

Sadly this govt are using spin as their strategy not honesty.

Err no.

All these people on here who think and say “he’s talking ballcox, underplaying this virus”. I’m saying this virus is burning itself out, my pet theory (but there may be another explanation) is a high proportion of the population is not susceptible to it and most of those who are have had it. Whatever the reason I’m convinced all these very expensive measures we’re taking are having a minimal, or even zero, effect. So please answer these points :

1 – Diamond Princess , a ship with 3800 people on it a lot of whom were older (passenger av age was around 70) where the very infectious virus was free to spread (with no social distancing and the normal social events) for two weeks to the 3rd Feb. Only 17% caught it and only 8 to 14 died, the numbers vary according to source (poss because some don’t include probably deaths from other causes ? ), but it certainly wasn't over hundred which one could have expected had the governments advice from its big expert (Neil Ferguson, OBE no less....) been correct. It must be emphasised that the average age of the 2666 passengers was around 70, an age at which you are much more vulnerable to Covid.

2 – Our lockdown, the most draconian that could be introduced in a free democracy, was introduced on the 23rd Mar. For the first month or so it was quite well observed. The average time to die from catching the disease is 18 days. So if the lockdown was working we could have expected a big fall off in in early to mid April, but it didn’t happen.

3 – As people became less strict about the lockdown (road traffic increased significantly) we could have expected the death rate to go up, but it didn’t, it started going down. I’m not saying one caused the other I’m simply saying the lockdown was having a minimal effect on the death rate (but was having massively negative effect on society and the economy).

4 – We were told by “experts” that of we ease off the lockdown the death rate would go up, but it didn’t, it actually continued to go down.

5 – We were told by some “experts” that reopening the schools would result in a “second spike”. Not only was there no second spike the death rate actually continued to fall.

6 - No country in the world that has had deep exposure to this virus (as defined by a death rate of over 1 in 2000) has experienced a second spike as their lockdowns have been eased off. In all of them the death rate has continued to fall. Belgium is the best example, their death rate is now on the floor.

7 - The total death rate from all causes from mid June is now lower than the long term average. That wonderful piece of positive news should have been lead item on all news programmes, but wasn't. No big surprise there then.

Basically wearing masks in shops will achieve absolutely sod all other than **** off loads of people and diminish footfall in non essential shops. It certainly will not make people more confident to go out, I would have thought seeing everyone in masks will just reinforce nervous peoples' fear which was dishonestly whipped up the government in the first place. What was it they said in one of their big "Covid briefings", oh yes "this virus is indiscriminate". I'm surprised anyone actually listened to word they said after they came out with that rubbish.
Note the graphic below is actually wrong, the death rate is even lower than the figures given, it certainly is now because we're getting better at treating the side effects of Covid.

"The virus is indiscriminate" (UK Government)

 

[Interestedobserver]

Relatively easy to upgrade filtration systems. Not cheap though.

Think planes are 99.7 per cent already (or something like that) to filter other particles that cause illness

I assume those extra .1 per cents they might need are actually very expensive or they would have already

Now bearing in mind they can't always get all the TVs to work on planes I would also doubt the ongoing maintenance and reliability of the above as well

But if it becomes clear you cab catch the virus from airborne particles on planes despite the filters then that's overseas travel doomed without the vaccine etc

It's cruise ships doomed

Unless we all end up wearing full high level face masks all the time everywhere?

Future isn't looking bright is it?

 

[Mr D]

Err no.

All these people on here who think and say “he’s talking ballcox, underplaying this virus”. I’m saying this virus is burning itself out, my pet theory (but there may be another explanation) is a high proportion of the population is not susceptible to it and most of those who are have had it. Whatever the reason I’m convinced all these very expensive measures we’re taking are having a minimal, or even zero, effect. So please answer these points :

1 – Diamond Princess , a ship with 3800 people on it a lot of whom were older (passenger av age was around 70) where the very infectious virus was free to spread (with no social distancing and the normal social events) for two weeks to the 3rd Feb. Only 17% caught it and only 8 to 14 died, the numbers very according to source, poss because some don’t include probably deaths from other causes ? ). It must be emphasised that the average age of the 2666 passengers was around 70, an age we were told meant you were very vulnerable to Covid.

2 – Our lockdown, the most draconian that could be introduced in a free democracy, was introduced on the 23rd Mar. For the first month or so it was quite well observed. The average time to die from catching the disease is 18 days. So if the lockdown was working we could have expected a big fall off in in early to mid April, but it didn’t happen.

3 – As people became less strict about the lockdown (road traffic increased significantly) we could have expected the death rate to go up, but it didn’t, it started going down. I’m not saying one caused the other I’m simply saying the lockdown was having a minimal effect on the death rate (but was having massively negative effect on society and the economy).

4 – We were told by “experts” that of we ease off the lockdown the death rate would go up, but it didn’t, it actually continued to go down.

5 – We were told by some “experts” that reopening the schools would result in a “second spike”. Not only was there no second spike the death rate actually continued to fall.

6 - No country in the world that has had deep exposure to this virus (as defined by a death rate of over 1 in 2000) has experienced a second spike, In all of them the death rate has continued to fall. Belgium is the best example, their death rate is now on the floor.

Basically wearing masks in shops will achieve absolutely sod all other than **** off loads of people and diminish footfall in non essential shops.

No, think you were right the first line. Talking bollocks or talking what you want to be true rather than reality which you do not yet know yourself.

 

[Mr D]

Think planes are 99.7 per cent already (or something like that) to filter other particles that cause illness

I assume those extra .1 per cents they might need are actually very expensive or they would have already

Now bearing in mind they can't always get all the TVs to work on planes I would also doubt the ongoing maintenance and reliability of the above as well

But if it becomes clear you cab catch the virus from airborne particles on planes despite the filters then that's overseas travel doomed without the vaccine etc

It's cruise ships doomed

Unless we all end up wearing full high level face masks all the time everywhere?

Future isn't looking bright is it?

Filtration systems tend to be rather easier to deal with than TV.
Notice how few labs ever release lethal viruses on the population? Filters help.

 

[Interestedobserver]

Err no.

All these people on here who think and say “he’s talking ballcox, underplaying this virus”. I’m saying this virus is burning itself out, my pet theory (but there may be another explanation) is a high proportion of the population is not susceptible to it and most of those who are have had it. Whatever the reason I’m convinced all these very expensive measures we’re taking are having a minimal, or even zero, effect. So please answer these points :

1 – Diamond Princess , a ship with 3800 people on it a lot of whom were older (passenger av age was around 70) where the very infectious virus was free to spread (with no social distancing and the normal social events) for two weeks to the 3rd Feb. Only 17% caught it and only 8 to 14 died, the numbers very according to source, poss because some don’t include probably deaths from other causes ? ). It must be emphasised that the average age of the 2666 passengers was around 70, an age we were told meant you were very vulnerable to Covid.

2 – Our lockdown, the most draconian that could be introduced in a free democracy, was introduced on the 23rd Mar. For the first month or so it was quite well observed. The average time to die from catching the disease is 18 days. So if the lockdown was working we could have expected a big fall off in in early to mid April, but it didn’t happen.

3 – As people became less strict about the lockdown (road traffic increased significantly) we could have expected the death rate to go up, but it didn’t, it started going down. I’m not saying one caused the other I’m simply saying the lockdown was having a minimal effect on the death rate (but was having massively negative effect on society and the economy).

4 – We were told by “experts” that of we ease off the lockdown the death rate would go up, but it didn’t, it actually continued to go down.

5 – We were told by some “experts” that reopening the schools would result in a “second spike”. Not only was there no second spike the death rate actually continued to fall.

6 - No country in the world that has had deep exposure to this virus (as defined by a death rate of over 1 in 2000) has experienced a second spike, In all of them the death rate has continued to fall. Belgium is the best example, their death rate is now on the floor.

Basically wearing masks in shops will achieve absolutely sod all other than **** off loads of people and diminish footfall in non essential shops.

All this seems to ignore what's happening in US states?

And even Melbourne?

Is there something special about the air in UK or our pubs and restaurants etc that means we won't get a surge and have to lockdown again?

We haven't even tried indoor stuff yet really but when others have done so the results aren't good are they?

How can you ignore what's happening elsewhere?

 

[Interestedobserver]

Professor Karol Sikora
@ProfKarolSikora

"Of all the draconian restrictions we've had imposed on our way of life, wearing masks is not the most difficult. I don't enjoy wearing one, but there is a benefit."

And that's the guy who champions us all not having a lockdown etc. Even he believes we should wear masks

 

[Justin Smith]

No, think you were right the first line. Talking ******** or talking what you want to be true rather than reality which you do not yet know yourself.

I note you haven't answered one point, which disappoints me to put it mildly.

 

[Justin Smith]

All this seems to ignore what's happening in US states?

And even Melbourne?

Is there something special about the air in UK or our pubs and restaurants etc that means we won't get a surge and have to lockdown again?

We haven't even tried indoor stuff yet really but when others have done so the results aren't good are they?

How can you ignore what's happening elsewhere?

I am not ignoring it I'm quoting it, point 6 in my post.

The US is an interesting one :
1 - They have no national health service or the insured equivalent.
2 - They have strong ethos of personal freedom.
3 - They have a lot of overweight people there.
The prognosis for the US is not good, but even there I predict their death rate will not exceed about 1 in 1000. If it gets up to that level it'll start to go down inexorably.

 

[Mr D]

I note you haven't answered one point, which disappoints me to put it mildly.

Live with the disappointment then. I'll wait until you change your mind or until more data becomes available. You are trying to convince others to your ideology.

 

[fisicx]

It’s not just death rates, it’s those needing hospitalisation and subsequent long term problems. Changes in procedures, different drugs etc will all help reduce the death rates but the patients often have long term health issues.

 

[Ian J]

Think planes are 99.7 per cent already (or something like that) to filter other particles that cause illness

I assume those extra .1 per cents they might need are actually very expensive or they would have already

But if it becomes clear you cab catch the virus from airborne particles on planes despite the filters then that's overseas travel doomed without the vaccine etc

I'm off to Spain in just under a month so hope that Ryanair's HEPA filters are up to scratch.

What is more concerning is what happens when we arrive at Alicante if we are all herded into buses for the trip from the apron to the terminal

 

[Mr D]

I'm off to Spain in just under a month so hope that Ryanair's HEPA filters are up to scratch.

What is more concerning is what happens when we arrive at Alicante if we are all herded into buses for the trip from the apron to the terminal

Better hope accommodation is open too.

 

[Justin Smith]

Live with the disappointment then. I'll wait until you change your mind or until more data becomes available. You are trying to convince others to your ideology.

No, I'm quoting facts, and you're ignoring them. You are certainly refusing to answer any of my points because they are inconvenient for you. But we will see for certain when the history of all this is written. If I'm right and you're wrong can I have an apology ?

 

[Mr D]

It’s not just death rates, it’s those needing hospitalisation and subsequent long term problems. Changes in procedures, different drugs etc will all help reduce the death rates but the patients often have long term health issues.

Death rates will tend to follow some time after infection rates too.

 

[Mr D]

No, I'm quoting facts, and you're ignoring them. You are certainly refusing to answer any of my points because they are inconvenient for you. But we will see for certain when the history of all this is written. If I'm right and you're wrong can I have an apology ?

If you are right I will of course agree.

You and I are not so far apart in age, may both be dead from Covid related problems by the time the history is written.
Or old age.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

The distance is absolute relative and 1m or 2m makes no real difference

Simple inverse square law. Its sixteen times safer at 2 metres than 1 metre.

 

[Justin Smith]

It’s not just death rates, it’s those needing hospitalisation and subsequent long term problems. Changes in procedures, different drugs etc will all help reduce the death rates but the patients often have long term health issues.

Of course, but one could just as easily say the same about road accidents, more so in fact as there are a far higher number of serious (but not fatal) RTAs. Yet the government doesn't ban cars, and, in fact, many people actually drive too fast, increasing the risk not only to themselves but everyone else. Even worse, a high proportion of drivers (apparently) dislike speed cameras and do not want GPS speed limiters which would defn reduce the death toll, probably by 100s a year.
What about the estimated 35,000 cancer patients who are more likely to dis early as a result of this lockdown ? One could say the same for countless other fatal diseases. Why are more people not bothered about them ? Or the billion who the World Bank say will be thrown into extreme poverty by these economic lockdowns. What about them ?
The fact is there are a lot of inconsistent people and hypocrites out there, as well as a large number with a very poor grasp of statistical risk probability.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

I note you haven't answered one point, which disappoints me to put it mildly.

I have no intention of answering yet again. You can't even get the Diamond Princess figures correct which puts all your other silly arguments into question.

 

[Nico Albrecht]

Simple inverse square law. Its sixteen times safer at 2 metres than 1 metre.

Inverse square law works very well in physics but not for viral outbreaks and distance measuring. There are much more values and parameters required than just a basic Inverse square law approach.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

The fact is there are a lot of inconsistent people and hypocrites out there, as well as a large number with a very poor grasp of statistical risk probability.

I have a perfect grasp of risk probability. How does it help that the figures given for the far south west of Cornwall are lumped in with Bristol? How am I supposed to know what my risk is when the Medical Director of Cornwall says he wont tell us useful statistics because he doesn't have to but Plymouth does?

 

[Mr D]

I have a perfect grasp of risk probability. How does it help that the figures given for the far south west of Cornwall are lumped in with Bristol? How am I supposed to know what my risk is when the Medical Director of Cornwall says he wont tell us useful statistics because he doesn't have to but Plymouth does?

Move to Plymouth?

 

[simon field]

Why are the government making it compulsory - in 10 days time? What’s happening between now and 24th of July which is going to mean that’s the right day to get jiggy with a face cover, but at the moment, don’t worry about it?

Those who are in favour of the government’s actions on all this crap - can you honestly not see what a dithering, flakey bunch of haphazard goons they really are? Look what they’re doing for goodness sake!

Have they seriously only just realised that masks offer protection from airborne shite? If it wasn’t so sad it’d be laughable..

In any case, I’m off down the pub later, where I can drink myself to death (maskless), as long as I don’t stand up or sing about it.

 

[Interestedobserver]

I am not ignoring it I'm quoting it, point 6 in my post.

The US is an interesting one :
1 - They have no national health service or the insured equivalent.
2 - They have strong ethos of personal freedom.
3 - They have a lot of overweight people there.
The prognosis for the US is not good, but even there I predict their death rate will not exceed about 1 in 1000. If it gets up to that level it'll start to go down inexorably.

Point 1 and 3 have no impact on the fact that it's clear allowing people to go in bars and restaurants and gyms and get their hair cut etc has led to more infections than they even faced the first time do they?

Point 2 is a bit of a red herring as you want us to be able to go back to normal anyway? And at that stage we get to do all the things they were allowed to do before they've had to start re-impose lockdown

Having a National Health Service is meaningless if we don't have enough hospital beds for the patients and the NHS can't cope?

You haven't answered my question really

What's different about our bars, restaurants and cinemas in the UK that means we won't just go the same way they have ?

That's the bit I don't see any answers to?

 

[Interestedobserver]

No, I'm quoting facts, and you're ignoring them. You are certainly refusing to answer any of my points because they are inconvenient for you. But we will see for certain when the history of all this is written. If I'm right and you're wrong can I have an apology ?

If I'm right?

Can I just confirm then all you are doing is guessing and speculating? And hoping?

Gambling basically?

 

[Interestedobserver]

Of course, but one could just as easily say the same about road accidents, more so in fact as there are a far higher number of serious (but not fatal) RTAs. Yet the government doesn't ban cars, and, in fact, many people actually drive too fast, increasing the risk not only to themselves but everyone else. Even worse, a high proportion of drivers (apparently) dislike speed cameras and do not want GPS speed limiters which would defn reduce the death toll, probably by 100s a year.
What about the estimated 35,000 cancer patients who are more likely to dis early as a result of this lockdown ? One could say the same for countless other fatal diseases. Why are more people not bothered about them ? Or the billion who the World Bank say will be thrown into extreme poverty by these economic lockdowns. What about them ?
The fact is there are a lot of inconsistent people and hypocrites out there, as well as a large number with a very poor grasp of statistical risk probability.

But car accidents and deaths from cancer each year have an upper limit and are spread out over time so that we have a country and a health service that can cope?

And they aren't contagious?

 

[Interestedobserver]

Why are the government making it compulsory - in 10 days time? What’s happening between now and 24th of July which is going to mean that’s the right day to get jiggy with a face cover, but at the moment, don’t worry about it?

Those who are in favour of the government’s actions on all this crap - can you honestly not see what a dithering, flakey bunch of haphazard goons they really are? Look what they’re doing for goodness sake!

Have they seriously only just realised that masks offer protection from airborne shite? If it wasn’t so sad it’d be laughable..

In any case, I’m off down the pub later, where I can drink myself to death (maskless), as long as I don’t stand up or sing about it.

The guy Fauci in US has said he's known masks would help save lives and prevent infection for a long time but they needed lead time to ensure that health service and frontline etc got them first

If they had announced we need masks tomorrow there would be a whole load of panic buying etc etc etc

Like with everything else

I imagine there will be still as many won't own a mask yet

 

[Interestedobserver]

Why are the government making it compulsory - in 10 days time? What’s happening between now and 24th of July which is going to mean that’s the right day to get jiggy with a face cover, but at the moment, don’t worry about it?

Those who are in favour of the government’s actions on all this crap - can you honestly not see what a dithering, flakey bunch of haphazard goons they really are? Look what they’re doing for goodness sake!

Have they seriously only just realised that masks offer protection from airborne shite? If it wasn’t so sad it’d be laughable..

In any case, I’m off down the pub later, where I can drink myself to death (maskless), as long as I don’t stand up or sing about it.

Try not to catch Covid. Or if you do try not to pass it on to too many people in the next couple of weeks Simon

Otherwise you will help bring us all back into lockdowns neither you nor I want

 

[simon field]

The guy Fauci in US has said he's known masks would help save lives and prevent infection for a long time but they needed lead time to ensure that health service and frontline etc got them first

If they had announced we need masks tomorrow there would be a whole load of panic buying etc etc etc

Like with everything else

I imagine there will be still as many won't own a mask yet

Any old face covering will do, it doesn’t have to be a mask!

A bit of old T-shirt, a disposable nappy, bra, polythene, anything really...

 

[Interestedobserver]

Any old face covering will do, it doesn’t have to be a mask!

A bit of old T-shirt, a disposable nappy, bra, polythene, anything really...

Yes. But 95 per cent or people will want to wear a mask rather than a bra or nappy

IMO!! Lol

 

[Ian J]

If they had announced we need masks tomorrow there would be a whole load of panic buying etc etc etc

I imagine there will be still as many won't own a mask yet

I've just had a look at the usual places and medical grade masks seem to have a lead time of up to a month whereas there are plenty of dust masks available which may or may not be of any use at all

 

[Interestedobserver]

In fact BBC News have just added a post telling people how to make their own face masks!!

10 days should be long enough for most!

 

[Deleted member 59730]

I've just had a look at the usual places and medical grade masks seem to have a lead time of up to a month whereas there are plenty of dust masks available which may or may not be of any use at all

Especially for you Ian

https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/gol-ui/product/face-masks/montagne-jeunesse-sachet-deadsea-mud-20g

 

[Alison Moore]

I can't help but think this is locking the stable door after the horse has bolted? It won't have any effect on supermarket shopping as people have to do that anyway, but it's hardly going to encourage me to go retail shopping whilst having to wear a mask. I can't see it helping the high street as will just push more people to shop online.

 

[Interestedobserver]

I can't help but think this is locking the stable door after the horse has bolted? It won't have any effect on supermarket shopping as people have to do that anyway, but it's hardly going to encourage me to go retail shopping whilst having to wear a mask. I can't see it helping the high street as will just push more people to shop online.

But having to go into lockdowns again would force ALL people to shop online?

 

[Alison Moore]

But having to go into lockdowns again would force ALL people to shop online?

True, but I am still struggling to understand why now... The retails shops re-opened in June yet over a month later we're all being told we have to wear face masks now?

 

[Mr D]

Point 1 and 3 have no impact on the fact that it's clear allowing people to go in bars and restaurants and gyms and get their hair cut etc has led to more infections than they even faced the first time do they?

Point 2 is a bit of a red herring as you want us to be able to go back to normal anyway? And at that stage we get to do all the things they were allowed to do before they've had to start re-impose lockdown

Having a National Health Service is meaningless if we don't have enough hospital beds for the patients and the NHS can't cope?

You haven't answered my question really

What's different about our bars, restaurants and cinemas in the UK that means we won't just go the same way they have ?

That's the bit I don't see any answers to?

The US doesn't have the NHS - there you can be operated on 48 hours after going to your doctor with a problem. Here its maybe 9 months for a test.
My godfather just got operated on this week, been waiting 18 months. If he was in America it would have in total taken a week rather than 2 years.
They have good healthcare for those as can pay or have insurance.

 

[Mr D]

But having to go into lockdowns again would force ALL people to shop online?

Why?
Didn't last time.

 

[Mr D]

True, but I am still struggling to understand why now... The retails shops re-opened in June yet over a month later we're all being told we have to wear face masks now?

They could have told us this in January. But didn't. They could have told us any time since then. But didn't.
Now they tell us to.

Comply or not, up to you. I'm complying, 6 months of using a mask while shopping hasn't worked out so bad.

 

[Mr D]

In fact BBC News have just added a post telling people how to make their own face masks!!

10 days should be long enough for most!

Plenty of other places have been doing this for months.
Some people have made quite a bit of money since February selling home made masks online.