White Hat SEO Is Dead!

[seoexpert]

There we go, I've said it.......

White Hat SEO, you know the normal ahem "organic" way of increasing rankings just doesn't cut it anymore.

Can anyone explain how on earth you could potentially increase your rankings on highly competitive keywords, when you're trying the exact same approach as all your competitors.

In natural link building as you gain more links and think you can improve your ranking, your competitors are also increasing their links and thus strengthening their existing rankings as well.

On a Fundamental level you can't catch up as you're increasing your link base at more or less the same rate as they are.

It like trying to catch the lead runner in a race, whilst they are running the same speed as you. - It's not going to happen folks,

Yes, You could always try linkbaiting but that's notoriously difficult to implement and seriously how many member of the general public know how to create anchor text etc. for starters.

So ruling out whitehat SEO, (and also Blackhat as an option due being to unethical and potentially hazardous to both your company image and ranking)

I'm prepared to stand up and say:

Grey Hat SEO (- my forte!) - is the way to go!

DISCUSS! :0)

 

Can anyone explain how on earth you could potentially increase your rankings on highly competitive keywords, when you're trying the exact same approach as all your competitors.

Very simple.

You know more than them.

You have more experience.

P.S why would you try the same tatics as them.?:|

Earl

 

[seoexpert]

Hmmm, It's not a simple as that though, once you've found out enough about SEO, you'll realise that in the world of whitehat SEO there is only really one way to do it correctly. (successful SEOs emulate others)

All whitehat SEO tactics are the same:

Perfect the SEO onpage/onsite and create relevant Backlinks from relevant content.
OK other factors come into play, but really how much value do they have.... minimal!

When in a race, Why drive a fiat like everyone else when you can drive a porsche?

 

[seoexpert]

My Point, if you're all emulating each other (as in pretty knowledgable about SEO), and someones got a head start, whats the chances you're going to catch them anytime soon?

Not Using Whitehat Techniques you're not. Why choose to race in the same fiat as everyone else when you can choose a ferrari

 

[-Joe-]

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Hmmm, It's not a simple as that though, once you've found out enough about SEO, you'll realise that in the world of whitehat SEO there is only really one way to do it correctly. (successful SEOs emulate others)

Nonsense.

All whitehat SEO tactics are the same:

More nonsense. If that were true, why are the SEOs on here always bickering with each other?

Perfect the SEO onpage/onsite and create relevant Backlinks from relevant content.

And you think there's only one way to do that?

OK other factors come into play, but really how much value do they have.... minimal!

And your evidence for this?

Finally, surely there's no such thing as "grey hat". There's white hat and there's black hat and the only difference between the two is that the latter includes the things thet can get you spanked into oblivion by google.

Steve

 

[InternetMarketingPlatinum]

Comparing SEO with starting late in a race is just the most simplistic and silly analogy that I've heard! So you obviously copy the rest. But what about innovation, forward-thinking, relationship building and creativity?

 

[WebCROcouk]

I think it depends on the phrase and the scale of the business you work with.

More resource = better chance.

 

[I, Brian]

Can anyone explain how on earth you could potentially increase your rankings on highly competitive keywords, when you're trying the exact same approach as all your competitors.

In natural link building as you gain more links and think you can improve your ranking, your competitors are also increasing their links and thus strengthening their existing rankings as well.

Just silly generalisations, really.

Once a domain is an authority, on-page tweaks can become very powerful.

Volume of links will not help a crappy domain.

Definitely not everything is black and white.

 

[terryuk]

Follow your shady competitors and you may just find yourself banned/penalised a week later along with competitor. Making organic SEO a race doesn't actually get you that far, it might do for a while then no doubt back to the starting line.. slow and steady wins the race.

If your going to do anything, you would be better off making two white hat websites, and ten grey/blackhat that way you are the competition

 

[Bruvver]

Is it acceptable for an SEO expert to create links on obscure free blogs to promote a sites position ?

 

[-Joe-]

Is it acceptable for an SEO expert to create links on obscure free blogs to promote a sites position ?

Yes, although blog commenting is outdated and ineffective.

 

[Minuteman Press]

I am off to research the definition of 'SEO Expert'.

 

[harryboon]

White Hat SEO is dead or has it just changed over the years?

 

[Marketing_guy]

We could all really do a massive generalisation and say that SEO is dead...

I mean with Google bringing in all it's other properties and pushing the "organic" results further and further out of sight, how does one achieve top rankings?

The short answer is, by being clever, using a multitude of techniques to achieve top positions but ultimately by continuing to follow the guidelines and pushing the boundaries of innovation.

Realistically is SEO dead? White hat, black hat, pink hat - Who cares?

For those that do - the answer is no of course its not dead, regardless of which hat you wear, it's simply evolved and we need to evolve with it or we'll never catch those runners!

 

[Codefixer]

There we go, I've said it.......

White Hat SEO, you know the normal ahem "organic" way of increasing rankings just doesn't cut it anymore.

Can anyone explain how on earth you could potentially increase your rankings on highly competitive keywords, when you're trying the exact same approach as all your competitors.

In natural link building as you gain more links and think you can improve your ranking, your competitors are also increasing their links and thus strengthening their existing rankings as well.

On a Fundamental level you can't catch up as you're increasing your link base at more or less the same rate as they are.

It like trying to catch the lead runner in a race, whilst they are running the same speed as you. - It's not going to happen folks,

Yes, You could always try linkbaiting but that's notoriously difficult to implement and seriously how many member of the general public know how to create anchor text etc. for starters.

So ruling out whitehat SEO, (and also Blackhat as an option due being to unethical and potentially hazardous to both your company image and ranking)

I'm prepared to stand up and say:

Grey Hat SEO (- my forte!) - is the way to go!

DISCUSS! :0)

For a minute I almost thought you were being serious.

 

[seoexpert]

Looks like I've created some heated debate here, and touched a nerve with a few people.

To the guy who says nonsense, Sorry I know it's hard to take but seriously, when you've got no.1 on every keyword you've ever tried for, then I'll take your comments seriously myself

If you're going to criticise at least be prepared to give me a reason why you believe it's nonsense.

Btw Anyone who wishes to challenge my assertion, then give me your keywords and the domains you're looking ranking, I'll challenge them and then we'll see who comes out on top.

I'll use greyhat techniques, you continue with your obsolete whitehat techniques and we'll see who has better rankings in a couple of months time.

Put your money where your mouth is

 

[Chunkford]

White Hat = Do it within Google's TOS.
Black Hat = Become a Spammer.
Grey Hat = Somewhere in between.
Blue Hat = Noddy

 

[Tin]

Yawn.... another one of those "mine is bigger than yours" threads and a good lesson in how to win friends and influence people.

 

[GMH1982]

What seems to be clearly apparent here is that somebody (won't mention any names!?!) has completely run out of ideas!

The techniques for white hat SEO are endless!......why?

Firstly they are endless because of the constant changes that take place online (yes! mostly with Google) with regard to the obvious....algo's, but also products i.e. product search, local search, instant, predictive etc etc.

Secondly - it is like saying their are no more new recipes in the world, absolutely every combination of food has been cooked and that is it.

*%*SN£%".......that replaces the word I wanted to say.

Although SEO is simple there is a science (or art to cooking) to it i.e. mixing together the right potions/ingredients in order to ensure you continually create a masterpiece or new recipe - i.e. keeping one up on the competition.

People run out of ideas when they are low level and cant pick them up on forums/blogs etc - SEO or being a good SEO is about creating your own methods and discovering your own science to getting good results and if you can no longer keep up with the competition then I'm afraid you may as well give it up........

Just my opinion!

 

[RedEvo]

What a difference a few words would make to the OP.......

Black Hat SEO, you know the normal ahem "non-organic" way of increasing rankings just doesn't cut it anymore.

Can anyone explain how on earth you could potentially increase your rankings on highly competitive keywords, when you're trying the exact same approach as all your competitors.

In non-natural link building as you gain more paid links and think you can improve your ranking, your competitors are also increasing their paid links and thus strengthening their existing rankings as well.

On a Fundamental level you can't catch up as you're increasing your paid link base at more or less the same rate as they are.

It like trying to catch the lead runner in a race, whilst they are running the same speed as you. - It's not going to happen folks,

Yes, You could always try linkbaiting but that's notoriously difficult to implement and seriously how many member of the general public know how to create anchor text etc. for starters.

So ruling out blackhat SEO, (and also whitehat as an option due being to unethical and potentially hazardous to both your company image and ranking)

I'm prepared to stand up and say:

Grey Hat SEO (- my forte!) - is the way to go!

DISCUSSED

d

 

[Bruvver]

I am off to research the definition of 'SEO Expert'.

Someone that promotes themselves as an SEO specialist ?

 

[seoexpert]

What a difference a few words would make to the OP.......

Black Hat SEO, you know the normal ahem "non-organic" way of increasing rankings just doesn't cut it anymore.

Can anyone explain how on earth you could potentially increase your rankings on highly competitive keywords, when you're trying the exact same approach as all your competitors.

In non-natural link building as you gain more paid links and think you can improve your ranking, your competitors are also increasing their paid links and thus strengthening their existing rankings as well.

On a Fundamental level you can't catch up as you're increasing your paid link base at more or less the same rate as they are.

It like trying to catch the lead runner in a race, whilst they are running the same speed as you. - It's not going to happen folks,

Yes, You could always try linkbaiting but that's notoriously difficult to implement and seriously how many member of the general public know how to create anchor text etc. for starters.

So ruling out blackhat SEO, (and also whitehat as an option due being to unethical and potentially hazardous to both your company image and ranking)

I'm prepared to stand up and say:

Grey Hat SEO (- my forte!) - is the way to go!

DISCUSSED

d

I don't get your post, because when you change the words around it doesn't make sense.

btw still waiting for people to challenge me on their keywords.... to make it easier for you I'll even use a brand new domain.

 

[terryuk]

I don't get your post, because when you change the words around it doesn't make sense.

btw still waiting for people to challenge me on their keywords.... to make it easier for you I'll even use a brand new domain.

Has someone just brought a tool and got excited

 

[GMH1982]

You really are going whole hog to make friends here eh "seoexpert"

 

[Marketing_guy]

I don't get your post, because when you change the words around it doesn't make sense.

btw still waiting for people to challenge me on their keywords.... to make it easier for you I'll even use a brand new domain.

Seriously, what's the point you're trying to make?

I've also got a great idea, I challenge you to get a fresh new domain I own to number 1

 

[Tom McClelland]

I think I agree with the OP's assertion. Obviously it is completely impossible for a newer site to do well in organic searches against established competition using white-hat methods. After all, all the SEO experts know what to do and as they're all doing the same thing so latecomers can never catch up. The SEO experts might as well all just pack up and go home.

Talk about argumentum ad "presumed conclusion".

 

[harryboon]

I think you are mistaken - completely impossible, nope you just need to be inventive & think outside the box

Obviously it is completely impossible for a newer site to do well in organic searches against established competition using white-hat methods.

 

[GMH1982]

I think this view that "SEOers are all going to do the same" is absolutely rubbish!

I am sure that there are many different tactics used to those we deploy - does that mean we as a business and agency are less successful.....far from it!

As I referred to in an earlier post - it is a constant leaning curve i.e. did Bill Gates create his first Microsoft package and go well hell yeah thats it best in the world sit back and give up - quite clearly he didnt, he knew not only that people would challenge him (i.e. Apples of the world), but because he loves what he does and when thats the case you have a natural yearn to get better and constantly improve.

This is the same with Good SEOers - nothing dark, or magical about it - just a natural wanting to get better and improve and solve the problem of getting higher ranking and better conversions

 

[directmarketingadvice]

I think you are mistaken - completely impossible, nope you just need to be inventive & think outside the box

This is the second time this has come up.

Is it really necessary to "think outside the box"? Or "push the envelope" or any of these other cliches?

Isn't the real differences between one SEO and another their level of insight into how Google works and the quality of their implementation?

Steve

 

[harryboon]

Yes you are right I just happen to word it in my own way

Isn't the real differences between one SEO and another their level of insight into how Google works and the quality of their implementation?

Steve

 

[gemd89]

Ok, So my site is new www.gdfancydress.co.uk - Im in a race with companies like

www.fastfancydress.co.uk - page 1

www.jokingaround.co.uk - page 5

Ive done articles, directory submission, commenting on forums, link building and getting my content in place - so what your saying is i dont stand a chance on catching up in the race? But yet i have seos quoting me £800+per month to get to page 1 google for the keyworld fancy dre*s - how is that then? Do they know something you dont?

Gemma

 

[Tom McClelland]

I think that perhaps I should have included <sarcasm> tags on my earlier post.

 

[newsvend]

Hi Gemma, we've corresponded before about news and article content. I'm one of 3 people here who have been heavily into SEO since Google first set up.

There are many things an SEO would suggest to you, but here's what you can do yourself right now, or at least get someone with knowledge of the workings of your ecommerce script to help you.

It will be worth more than all the forum links etc you can ever get to:

Sort your onsite coding, structure, keyword-page alignment and meta-tags out.

Taking just 60 seconds, I see:

- The same title tags used across multiple pages
- The same description tags used across multiple pages
- Empty category pages
- Category pages with nothing but products, ie no descriptive text
- Canonical problems with your index page
- URLs of section pages not reflecting the link name i.e. your News page is a file called extra_information.php

Just my 2p worth.

 

Isn't the real differences between one SEO and another their level of insight into how Google works and the quality of their implementation?

Steve

Not really Google is just one search engine,using all the tools,strategies and resources available to the SEO can make the difference.

So just understanding Googles algo would not suffice in many cases.IMHO

Earl

 

[seoexpert]

Ok, So my site is new.....

Ive done articles, directory submission, commenting on forums, link building and getting my content in place - so what your saying is i dont stand a chance on catching up in the race? But yet i have seos quoting me £800+per month to get to page 1 google for the keyworld fancy dre*s - how is that then? Do they know something you dont?

Gemma

I'll get you there, but I won't charge till after I've got results. How's that for a deal? Doubt many other SEO's here are prepared to make this promise.

Let's put it this way I'm a great SEO specialist, that's why I've chose the name. but If they've got a great SEO guy working for fastfancydress, you won't catch them and take no. 1 unless you do something to level the playing field or give you a competitive edge.

I don't care what any of the other SEOs are saying about different whitehat techniques... I've done my research and implemented all the different techniques. Unless you approach SEO more aggressively than "natural" slow building you won't catch up if they are still carrying out a decent SEO campaign and building on their backlinks despite being no.1

btw It's a plus you've got the keywords in the domain... google likes that.

 

[herodigital]

There we go, I've said it.......

White Hat SEO, you know the normal ahem "organic" way of increasing rankings just doesn't cut it anymore.

Can anyone explain how on earth you could potentially increase your rankings on highly competitive keywords, when you're trying the exact same approach as all your competitors.

In natural link building as you gain more links and think you can improve your ranking, your competitors are also increasing their links and thus strengthening their existing rankings as well.

On a Fundamental level you can't catch up as you're increasing your link base at more or less the same rate as they are.

It like trying to catch the lead runner in a race, whilst they are running the same speed as you. - It's not going to happen folks,

Yes, You could always try linkbaiting but that's notoriously difficult to implement and seriously how many member of the general public know how to create anchor text etc. for starters.

So ruling out whitehat SEO, (and also Blackhat as an option due being to unethical and potentially hazardous to both your company image and ranking)

I'm prepared to stand up and say:

Grey Hat SEO (- my forte!) - is the way to go!

DISCUSS! :0)

for an "seo expert" to claim that white hat SEO is dead and that linkbait doesn't work, is just ludicrous.

in fact some of the best bloody examples of link bait have been from small businesses that create a great offer - who don't even realise they've created linkbait!!

also, explain grey hat.

 

[Ali-v-8]

The answer is yes.. I just took one look at your website and saw a number of improvements.

Ok, So my site is new www.gdfancydress.co.uk - Im in a race with companies like

www.fastfancydress.co.uk - page 1

www.jokingaround.co.uk - page 5

Ive done articles, directory submission, commenting on forums, link building and getting my content in place - so what your saying is i dont stand a chance on catching up in the race? But yet i have seos quoting me £800+per month to get to page 1 google for the keyworld fancy dre*s - how is that then? Do they know something you dont?

Gemma

 

[Tin]

Let's put it this way I'm a great SEO specialist,

I agree, you're in a league of your own mate. This seems to be you asking for seo help on another forum in June (the site in your member account here is www.b2bdatasolutions.com) which is the same site asking for help but I could of course be wrong? It could have nothing to do with you and just by fluke it's appeared in your profile.

http://www.google.co.uk/support/forum/p/Webmasters/thread?tid=1e3e188e43cb2d06&hl=en

here's some comments from you...

"A week ago our new website was Page 10 using the keywords "B2B Data." However this week it's gone down to page 12 despite submitting our site to google and other search engines and adding a number of backlinks from keyword targetted high PR forums.
Does anyone have an idea why that could be happening? Any advice would be highly appreciated."

"I've read the SEO Optimization Starter guide you've sent me and I'm aware that a few items such as metatags and alts are still to be added"

"I'm finding this all very helpful information, thanks folks.
I know who I'll be coming to when we can provide a budget for SEO further down the line"

"Just a few things I could do with clarification, Autocrat what are SERPs, I've never heard of them before? and which techniques would you suggest I employ to get to a reasonable placing where I could generate enough revenue off traffic to hire professional SEO experts to help increase my rankings."

Just a tip, you could do with sorting out your canonicals but if you ask around here I'm sure someone will help.

 

[princefarr]

You can go for the following activities.
Blog Comments
Forum Comments
Press Release Submission
Article Submission
Social Networking
Yahoo Answers
Social Book Marking