UKBF Community Anarchy ?

[creospace]

I can hardly believe any Forum of worth is going to have a policy of making people pay in order to have a website review in such a clumsy and cack handed way.

Neither can I but then not sure if you're referring to UKBF or another forum as members here are not paying for a website review they are paying for a forum subscription of which access to the website review forum is one of many benefits.

You I guess do raise a valid point in that if you post having paid your monies and the advice given is of little or no use or no one bothers replying then you're going to feel somewhat let down. It is an unlikely scenario but a possibility and one that requires maybe some thought and input. Some forums have 'forum experts' maybe that is a route to go but I can see a 'them and us' situation arising from that which isn't healthy really.

Having said that on the whole the advice given is excellent and of great value and well worth paying for as part of a benefits package. I think the only real issue is the way in which the way that particular forum works is explained to new members or that if they post a website review request elsewhere it is likely to be moved so don't bother trying sort of thing.

 

[creospace]

Or when people have to pay up to reply in a thread that they have already posted in, because its been moved, those type of things appear more like 'forcing' people to pay, rather than getting people to want to pay by offering a service worth the money, if that makes sense

Why don't you offer positive answers, ways forward, suggestions rather than always criticising? Perhaps if you were to offer this you might get listened to? It seemed to work for me from the start of this thread i raised a problem and I offered a possible solution, sift read my idea and have taken it on board for the benefit of the whole community.

 

[Chris Kaday]

Going back to the origional thread there are ignorant people everywhere and some will be on this forum. Those who add value on here will just ignore them. I have actually been posting far less on here and there are three reasons – nothing to do with politeness or spam.

1. Specifics – I find the questions just too vague to construct any meaningful reply and I can’t be bothered to clarify what is actually required as invariably the individual is far too unfocused or still at the ideas stage. The quality of the answer depends on the quality of the question and I really think we should take some more overt action to encourage this. A how to get the best from UKBF which automatically goes to all new members?
2. Sales – as well as PR and marketing my core skill is selling and business development and this is so little featured on this site as evidenced by my recent post on the subject. Many small businesses on here actually need to get out and sell (and learn to buy well and negotiate too) and I think we should be encouraging this more. At the very least we could mention the dreaded ‘S’ word in the marketing and PR heading. I am looking for sites now where I can add my sales skills and hopefully help someone win business this week.
3. Audience – OK I know people will scream at me when I say this but the size and situation of the businesses in UKBF are well under my client acquisition radar and they seem to be getting smaller and more speculative every day. Now there are few on here who add more value to small businesses and start ups than me so I am really not knocking these lovely people who I am happy to help for free. However I would draw member’s attention to the fact that this is UKBF not UKSBF and I really think we need to find ways of attracting some medium sized businesses into the fold. The dialogues would be more constrictive and the chances of gaining one or two interesting clients a year would be higher – not my primary objective for being here but one of them. I have no idea how we do this? I do appreciate that prime movers of most busy medium sized businesses are too busy doing their business to post but we do really have some excellent input for them which they are probably paying for right now. When I mention it to my larger clients they do have a look but are too busy to engage further.

Anyway that is what I think. Please do not hurl insults at me for my last point. I just want to see us raise the debate and the participant profiles a little. It would definitely be in the long term interest of UKBF or maybe another forum positioned to do this is the answer but I always prefer to work with what I have not start something else.

Regards to all – looking forward to my curry yum yum

Chris Kaday

 

[creospace]

Specifics - I find the questions just too vague to construct any meaningful reply and I can't be bothered to clarify what is actually required as invariably the individual is far too unfocused or still at the ideas stage. The quality of the answer depends on the quality of the question and I really think we should take some more overt action to encourage this. A how to get the best from UKBF which automatically goes to all new members?

A valid point but I think I would counter point by saying that part of participating in such a community would to 'offer the bridge' as it were in suggesting that or pointing out that the problem is not their problem , the problem is the questions they are asking etc? The 'we' includes you I'm afraid, and me for that matter! Bad data in bad data out they say so if we offer a breeding ground for good questions by teaching how to ask good questions then the end result is obvious.

Point 3 - Yes it would be good to get larger businesses here without a doubt but as you say it is ukbf so that still includes the smaller ones as well, I realise of course you're not suggesting that it doesn't but in bringing the big guns on board we mustn't forget the little guys which sadly can happen.

Good post Chris

 

Good points Chris.

One gets fed up with questions that are a length of string.

with the answers also being a length of string.

Afraid my motive for becoming a paid up member were purely to enable me to get links in my signature.But then I have always been Noble

Earl

 

[RayB]

The way I look at it, every now and then a really good thread pops up, and those easily balance up the useless ones for me.

And whilst we are waiting for the gems, there is always plenty of good banter going on - and I learn something new most days by reading threads outside my particular sphere of knowledge.

I am not really here to tout for business at all - but my sig links generally drive 20-40 unique visits to my site every day - so that is worth the fee on it's own for me

 

[Chris Kaday]

Point 3 - Yes it would be good to get larger businesses here without a doubt but as you say it is ukbf so that still includes the smaller ones as well, I realise of course you're not suggesting that it doesn't but in bringing the big guns on board we mustn't forget the little guys which sadly can happen.
I actually think more solid companies participating would help the little guys raise their game. Most in here are trying to take the first growth steps and medium sized businesses have already made this essential step. Remember if you want to be a winner mix with winners.

Chris Kaday

 

[DuaneJackson]

"winner" posts moved to here

 

[Ozzy]

I can hardly believe any Forum of worth is going to have a policy of making people pay in order to have a website review in such a clumsy and cack handed way. More, this seems to be an area that needs sorting out in a way that better suits new members. I also don't believe that anyone who reviews a website sees it as a chore and therefore its not a sacrifice of their time to do so, so why can't people join and just get a review if thats what they want?

A couple of peeps seem to have either not been around at the time, or have forgotten about, when a discussion was had about the significant problem of lots of "newbies" signing up on UKBF and amongst their very first post was "I've had my website designed and am looking for your thoughts" type posts.
These were just a veiled attempt to get lots of people to read carefully through their lists of products, services et all. get inbound links to their website, and basically purely to get people to look at their website (in the hope of perhaps getting some business from it.
Many good members spent valuable time reviewing these websites, correcting grammar, spelling, giving recommendations on how to improve conversions. The whole lot. These people would not come back to respond to teh feedback, no thanks and woudl never be seen again. The members who spent time reviewing these website got fed up doing so, and many even stopped giving feedback for website review requests. Everyone lost out.

After discussing it with UKBF members a website review forum was added to the private area. The reasoning behind this was that it would encourage genuine requests rather than false ones, and as some said they dont mind spending time reviewing others websites if they can be sure that the request is genuine. Now the majority of review requests get more detailed reviews including by some members who had previously stoppped giving reviews. It was also discussed about it being for paid members only, and the general concensus was that if someone really does want a review of their business website then paying £36 to have access to that area shouldn't really be a problem.

It was UKBF members who voted and agreed on this long before Sift ever got involved, back when I ran these forums. As always has been and still continues to be the case, any significant changes to these forums are done through discussion with UKBF members first.

Sorry, just had to clarify that because some people seem to have a short memory

 

[Cornish Steve]

Hear. hear. It's a good policy.

 

[Chris Kaday]

Very good to have the history and perfectly understandable

Chris Kaday

 

[RayB]

Can someone review my site, and whilst you are at it, has anyone got any free stuff to help me make money :|

 

[cjd]

I think we're going to have to live with the fact that people who find and want to use this place are likley to be new and micro companies - ie not even small companies.

I can't remember the official difinition of small, medium and large company but I doubt we have ANY company on here that could be as big as even 'small'.

For example, for a Ltd company to need to declare its income at Companies House you need to have an income of £5.6m and some other foll-de-roll about employees and assets.

Businesses likely to have turnovers at the level necessary to decelare it are not here; or anywhere else online that I know of.

But I'm always ready to learn - and I sense an opportunity ;-)

 

[INDIZINE]

sme is under 250 employees. micro is defined as under 10.

 

[Matt1959]

re. website reviews- good thing I scraped through with mine before the £36 came into play then! Very useful it was too and with hindsight would probally have felt the whole thing worth £36 but without hindsight - not a chance unfortunately.......

 

[green mum]

Thought I'd add my opinion for what it's worth.. I'm fairly new to the site and have found it a really positive place to be. I always try to welcome new members to the site as I was given such a warm welcome myself. I occasionally get problems with people spamming me via the site but nothing major and I consider it a small price to pay.

There are certain members on here that I have a huge amount of respect for, either because they have taken the time to give me good advice or I have noticed other people's threads which they have contributed to.

To me it's not just about the experience or knowledge you share with others on here, it's about how you share it. At times I kind of bite my lip when I post something because you wonder if someone is going to come back with a totally sarcastic, rude comment. This should not be tolerated and I agree we should have some kind of flag system to prevent this.

 

Thought I'd add my opinion for what it's worth.. I'm fairly new to the site and have found it a really positive place to be. I always try to welcome new members to the site as I was given such a warm welcome myself. I occasionally get problems with people spamming me via the site but nothing major and I consider it a small price to pay.

There are certain members on here that I have a huge amount of respect for, either because they have taken the time to give me good advice or I have noticed other people's threads which they have contributed to.

To me it's not just about the experience or knowledge you share with others on here, it's about how you share it. At times I kind of bite my lip when I post something because you wonder if someone is going to come back with a totally sarcastic, rude comment. This should not be tolerated and I agree we should have some kind of flag system to prevent this.

Why would you be upset by someone you don't know and does not know you posting something rude or sarcastic.

Apart from a mild amusement at there lack of knowledge and manners

Earl

 

[green mum]

Why would you be upset by someone you don't know and does not know you posting something rude or sarcastic.

Apart from a mild amusement at there lack of knowledge and manners

Earl

I'm not saying it upsets me, just that I don't think there is any need for it and there should be no place for it on here. It's not a school playground and we are all adults.

I forgot to add - I think the £36 to join is very reasonable and am very happy to pay it.

 

[CmyC5]

I toast to you GM on that

on this chilly night by us here. It is indeed a modest sum but if the discussion continues with members who seriously do not see the need to be part of this worthy Forum (with their long overdue decision on the yearly membership fee) except for the need to treat this as another child playground with a horde of their incomprehensible mindset...it will deter "serious businessmen" from truly participating/contributing matters of essence in the long term...

it all depends too, on the Moderators getting caught up in the fray...which I have unfortunately noticed, no names needed but if you think I am referring to you, than you should know its time you commit your duties to guide this Forum in the direction it is poised to be and also, accept the facts and face the constructive critique and last but not least, don't ever start getting personal...(with hidden reprisals given the authority and tools before you) or this is not the role you were assigned for...

Desmond.

 

[lockie]

£36 squid is peanuts if your business is doing well imho , less than a tank of fuel and it lasts a year.

Ive had one order from someone on here which earned me waaay more than that. Ive also had some great printing done by a fellow member too which saved me more than £36 . Its easy to always take take....

 

I'm not saying it upsets me, just that I don't think there is any need for it and there should be no place for it on here. It's not a school playground and we are all adults.

Afraid adults are just old children

Earl

 

[Alice3537]

Afraid adults are just old children

Earl

Going a little OT, I know - but that is SO true! And very much so in 'forum world'!!

 

[CmyC5]

Occasionally, it is also necessary to break the ice with an OT quip or two, between agitating parties about to lose their heads over a trivial issue which one often witness in Forums.

 

[Rienne]

Why would you be upset by someone you don't know and does not know you posting something rude or sarcastic.

Apart from a mild amusement at there lack of knowledge and manners

Earl

How are you ever going to "know" someone - it is an internet forum therefore by its very nature it is hardly likely anyone is going to know other people.

Therefore the aggression which is often apparent here - or if you like the slightly sneering tone of perhaps some who have been here for a long time - is indeed completely unecessary, and can be upsetting because it is completely inappropriate. This place is supposed to be about support and help. The poster who likened some people to "Dragons" is spot on. And adults are - adults.

 

[Ozzy]

or if you like the slightly sneering tone of perhaps some who have been here for a long time - is indeed completely unecessary,

To be fair it is not entirely fair to assume it to always be long standing members, I have witnessed an equal amount of inappropriate language and comments from new and old members alike. It's down to the personality traits of the individual, and not whether they are established on here or not.

 

[creospace]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rienne
or if you like the slightly sneering tone of perhaps some who have been here for a long time - is indeed completely unecessary,

To be fair it is not entirely fair to assume it to always be long standing members, I have witnessed an equal amount of inappropriate language and comments from new and old members alike. It's down to the personality traits of the individual, and not whether they are established on here or not.

Whilst there is of course a lot of truth in what you say what can happen is that as you become established and part of the furniture you start to feel as if you own the place (ok in your case ozzy you did 'own the palce') and have some right to judge those who are newer. That is a trait that can only be exclusive to established members.

It is very similar to 'cliques' in real life communities and to an extent it can happen online, I'm sure many here (including myself) have buddies found on the forum that we talk to off the forum.

 

[Gillie]

I have formed some really good friendships on this place and have also met quite a few too and even use some to move my business forward!

And I will talk to anyone ... no honestly!!

Seriously though, I have been reading this thread for a while now and whilst some are aggressive, chances are they just don't realise or perhaps those that are around for a while, forget that new posters don't get their sense of humour etc.

I do think that unlike real life, you have to go find a pinch of salt to take some comments, as written words are often more harsh than spoken words even with the use of smilies.

 

[Ozzy]

OK fair point, but I still think it does say a lot about the individual. If someone belittles or uses inappropriate mannerisms in the way they speak/type to oether people then that does say more about them than the person they are speaking to.
I have changed my mind about doing business with members of UKBF in the past based on the way they have treated others. One member was about 1 week from receiving a couple of £K order from me and I changed my mind aftre reading a post of his on here. Just reaffirms the comments of many, treat others as you would like to and expect to be treated yourself.

 

[creospace]

OK fair point, but I still think it does say a lot about the individual. If someone belittles or uses inappropriate mannerisms in the way they speak/type to oether people then that does say more about them than the person they are speaking to.
I have changed my mind about doing business with members of UKBF in the past based on the way they have treated others. One member was about 1 week from receiving a couple of £K order from me and I changed my mind aftre reading a post of his on here. Just reaffirms the comments of many, treat others as you would like to and expect to be treated yourself.

Oh definitely - if you're generally nasty then you'll be nasty whether you are new or established.

 

[CmyC5]

I have formed some really good friendships on this place and have also met quite a few too and even use some to move my business forward!

And I will talk to anyone ... no honestly!!

That is very welcoming to be re assured and I welcome your genuine gesture expressed. On those that Ozzy had inevitably uncovered, varying colors of some naturally abounds someday, somehow and in the least suspecting manner which then reveals their true character as a person, regardless of all the "colored language and euphemisms" used to display themselves as an authority on the subject discussed, it will be rooted out eventually.
The sad part is usually the prejudice shown by old hats in a forum over other members, new or otherwise... a clear giveaway to their humility lacking seriously and their arrogance to all they consider "subordinate" to their term in seniority or stance by postings within a Forum they are in.

Don't make too hasty a judgment over others, let them have their chance to express for after a while, can it self reflect as a genuine entry or a confirmed self inflict exit.

 

[Lasting Designs]

OK fair point, but I still think it does say a lot about the individual. If someone belittles or uses inappropriate mannerisms in the way they speak/type to oether people then that does say more about them than the person they are speaking to.
I have changed my mind about doing business with members of UKBF in the past based on the way they have treated others. One member was about 1 week from receiving a couple of £K order from me and I changed my mind aftre reading a post of his on here. Just reaffirms the comments of many, treat others as you would like to and expect to be treated yourself.

That has to be the best comment I've seen in some weeks, to me this sums the spirit of UKBF and the rule that I have adopted myself. I had planned on using the services on a regular poster here and to some degree had planned to extend their product as a possible extention of what I'm doing - one post from them, blew that notion out of the water before it got going (sadly, but from a business relationship POV, glad their true colour came to the surface when they did).

I have a whole list of favorites logged ready for orders when required, but its done on my impressions of them and what they can do, but I don't do disrespectful, for that there is no excuse.

 

[Cornish Steve]

I agree with the sentiments, but I also think there's another factor in play here.

The longer I am a member, the more confident I feel about being candid to some posters. I don't mean to sound arrogant, and I apologise if I do, but sometimes it's better for someone to hear the harsh truth now than to find out the hard way. For sure, I'd much rather that someone offer to me constructive criticism than to hold back in the interests of being polite. Maybe this is another reason why long-time members sometimes sound arrogant; we're confident enough to call a spade a spade (as I just did in another post).

I have no problem with those who criticise in posts; in fact, I welcome it. Nastiness and getting personal, however, are something else. If the mods feel they are warranted in stepping in more to address such matters, I'd see no problem in that.

I know I can be strong-minded on some topics, and I do tend to write what I really think. If I've overstepped the mark, please put me in my place. I've taken the liberty to do that once or twice by PM (just because I thought it was the right thing to do), so I expect it in return.

 

[creospace]

I have a whole list of favorites logged ready for orders when required, but its done on my impressions of them and what they can do, but I don't do disrespectful, for that there is no excuse.

Everyone will be wondering who's on or respectively off other peoples lists

Maybe public airing of the lists aren't such a bad thing (jesting)?

 

[RayB]

I agree with the sentiments, and I think there's another factor in play here.

The longer I am a member, the more confident I feel about being candid to some posters. I don't mean to sound arrogant, and I apologise if I do, but sometimes it's better for someone to hear the harsh truth now than to find out the hard way. For sure, I'd much rather that offer to me constructive criticism and not hold back in the interests of being polite. Maybe this is another reason why long-term members sometimes sound arrogant; we're confident enough to call a spade a spade (as I just did in another post).

I have no problem with those who criticise in posts; in fact, I welcome it. Nastiness and getting personal, however, are something else. If the mods feel they are warranted in stepping in more to address such matters, I'd see no problem in that.

I know I can be strong-minded on some topics, and I do tend to write what I really think. If I've overstepped the mark, please put me in my place. I've taken the liberty to do that once or twice by PM (just because I thought it was the right thing to do), so I expect it in return.

I totally agree with you Steve.

The thing I feel most strongly about is trying to correct duff advice - which I sometimes see with SEO threads for example.

What I mean by this, is I don't like to stand by and see advice given (sometimes unwittingly) that may actually be harmful to the OP's sites, or at best a waste of money.

And sure, sometimes I wish I had framed a particular answer/post more diplomatically - but to me the most important thing is to have the confidence to make the contribution in the first place

 

[maria102]

I think the thread that people are referring to where the guy got responses that went way beyond "constructive criticism" was "Hi from Manchester" where he was accused amongst other things of being from Fakeville and being very poor at his profession; I mentioned at the time to my husband that some of the "feedback" he got could wreck his career rather than help him as it could completely knock his confidence..... btw he hasn't posted since.

Even as I type this, I'm expecting someone to now have a pop at me for something or other....

 

[Cornish Steve]

I think you're spot on, Maria. No one should be treated disrespectfully, especially someone new.

 

[CmyC5]

Thank you Maria for your profound observation made and hopefully, all who are following this thread may learn something too about their own arrogance with addressing newcomers that would best be avoided and instead take a back seat and allow a chance to be proven...remember, you were in the same spot once and was given with respect, in allowing you to gain a foothold where you are now, imagine a hot headed showed up and made it difficult for you back then... this goes for the newbies too, be humble & courteous with your expectations, you are in the student's stool for a change...

 

[SK Virtual Assistant]

I usually say, on forums, that we should try and type as if we were speaking face to face with the person we are replying to. It's too easy for casual but innocent words to be taken the wrong way when in the written form.

I think this place is very positive on the whole and, though I haven't been around for long, I'm beginning to feel encouraged to speak up when and if I have something to say (see, it only took me to page 12 of this one to say something ). Perhaps we could all watch how we deal with newcomers because not everybody will think to read the forum guidelines so those first posts that don't quite 'conform' might be entirely genuine mistakes which need only a friendly pointer in the right direction.

 

[ken_uk]

Sometimes, its not about disrespect, take for example if someone comes one, and claims for example to be a expert in health issues, but then says that its a proven fact your elbow is connected to your forehead, you would not expect people to comment on that fact, and disprove it? If they then continued to argue false facts, would you not expect people to speak up and show that someone is actually talking rubbish?


If someone is claiming to be a professional in a field, and offering advice, which is misleading, or wrong, then it would be wrong to not say anything.

Mainly it protects other's who may read that information, and assume because no one has said otherwise, it must be true..

If someone registers their domain using fake content details (the fakeville refferred to was not a insult someone made up, those were actually the details (fakevill in fakeland) that the original poster falsely registered his business website under!) then you would not comment? You would rather people who didn't know any better put their business / website in the hands of someone without knowing facts like that?

If I give bad advice on a forum, or make false claims, I have no problem if someone corrects me, its the best way to learn. If I had 'false' confidence, that I could do something I could not, and was giving out false information, and maybe even putting other peoples businesses at risk, I would actually hope people would have the decency to say something, rather than keep silent.

If someone has confidence in something easily proved wrong, then surely its better to have that said at a early stage in th forum than later when they have the clients? If the confidence is founded on a good foundation then nothing anyone says should be able to shake that confidence, as they will be able to come back and state that the person who is arguing is wrong, and back up why they are wrong. If not, then perhaps the confidence they have is based on something unfounded.

Many people don't bother posting once their original thread has run its course, thats very common on the internet, and one reason why many people often give up giving fuller replies, as they realise most of the time the o/p wont be around to report back the results. Or if people point out basic corrections, or correct false info, then sometimes the original poster calls them all a bunch of whiners, as happened in the thread you referred to earlier...

On the whole though, I dont see much of a problem on the forum, its quite tame compared to some - although I can pretty much guarantee if people did not speak up against spammers, or bad advice, or fraud etc then things would take a turn for the worse very quickly. You would soon get every tom, dick and harriet claiming to be everything under the sun, and offering all sorts of things they cant provide, and filling the forums with advice that could cripple someone elses business. (im not referring to specific posts, just in general it could happen)

 

[maria102]

You are definitely right Ken, when people post incorrect advice, knowledge etc, then it would always be right to put the record straight for the uninformed (namely me as I seem to have misread the info regarding Fakesville!). However, the sentiment in my post is still the same, he did get a lot of flack, and it was about the tone of the responses he got from SOME people, which were not lost on other member of this forum.