The customer is always right? Not when its web design!

[dzined]

I though this may be an interesting point of discussion....

You are an experienced designer/marketer with a wealth of experience under your belt. Your new client with little knowledge of either, refuses to accept your creative, intuitive ideas for a new website. Their view is (as they often say) "I know what I like" ....normally followed by some specialist phrase such as "It needs more zing", "It doesn't look right.", "It doesn't have enough swoosh".

When do you point out that actually you (The designer/marketer) have put more consideration and thought in to their existing/potential new business than they have, and rather than design based around your personal preferences you have designed with usability in mind, what the end user needs, ease of use and all of your other expertise.

I'd love to hear your experiences and views on this or similar situations. It happens time and time again to designers everywhere and at the best of times can be utterly deflating to watch a great design turn into a thick porridgy mess.

 

[Kernowman]

It has been the same since thee year dot and probably never will change. If you have ever seen the film 'History of the World' by Mel Brooks, there is a good example of a cave man "Art Critic" LOL

I have had countless clients who thought they knew best when it came to designing a stunning brochure and changed almost every detail away from the initial concept until it ended up being the equivalent of patterned toilet paper. But hey, if the big cheque gets slapped in your hand at the end of it and I told them it would bomb (nicely) usually got given free reign come redesign time.

 

[Toni Anicic]

You should blow some steam over here http://clientsfromhell.net/

I just go there and read a few of these whenever I feel like I'm sick of the clients and it makes me happy.

 

[dzined]

love that site

 

[Kernowman]

You should blow some steam over here http://clientsfromhell.net/

I just go there and read a few of these whenever I feel like I'm sick of the clients and it makes me happy.

Thanks!

Clicked on that link and within seconds I was smiling. This one should be made into a National Monument carved into a tablet of stone because I have heard it so many times myself:

"I know what I like and what I don’t like and I know what I want and what I don’t want, but I have nothing specific in mind"

Priceless

 

[The Printed Bag Shop]

Very funny site

 

[Wholesale-Suppliers]

Yeah, I have also noticed that most of the people have no awareness about the web design how should it look alike to attract the customer and it should be simple but it is very difficult for them to understand

 

[accountancyextra]

You mean every time you do work for us, you charge us?

Is a personal favourite.....

Seriously, do you tell a client or do you educate them and explain in clear english why your ideas are more likely to succeed?
​

 

[Toni Anicic]

Seriously, do you tell a client or do you educate them and explain in clear english why your ideas are more likely to succeed?
​

There are only two types of clients: Those that think they know and those that know they don't know.

For the first ones, there's not much you can do. You can either make your peace with the fact that you're going to work on something far away from the bespoke solution or decline the job.

The second ones are not really problematic.

 

[DavidGiant]

I often have this problem. I talk at length with my client about what they require, talk about their goals, what websites they like etc.

I make a design based on everything they have said. I explain every part of the design, why the layout is like it is, the reasoning behind the color scheme. They look impressed, then ask... 'can we make it red?' Or... 'can you make the logo bigger?'

What happens next is the following:

Me: *facepalm*
Me: "Yes, the website can have a blood stain oozing down from the top... however as this is a website selling children's clothing and the parents will be purchasing said clothes it is likely to negatively impact sales."
Client: "Lets do it!"

Or:

Me: *facepalm*
Me: "Yes, the logo can be made bigger but the fact is that the client already knows where they are. The site name is here, here, here and here. By making it bigger, the navigation will look small and the site will be harder to use."
Me: *Jumps on photoshop and blows up logo.*
Me: "Do you see what I mean? What would you like to do?"
Client: "BIGGER!!!!!!!!!"

Honestly, if you are commissioning a website then by all means provide feedback but remember that you have hired this person because you trust them to make your website. You do not ask a builder to replace the standard brick with a logo brick. You let the builder get on with it.

If you use a website a skilled designer has built you it will be great. At the end of day your opinion doesn't really matter. It is your job to define the purpose of the website, describe your customer and generally paint a picture of what your company is about and what the website needs to do. It is then the designers job to capture the mood of your company and temper it with the requirements of your visitors NOT the requirements of the person commissioning the website.

If I was my own client, I would take whatever site I was given and in the following weeks / month's listen to customer feedback and analyze my sites usage statistics. I would then act on it accordingly.

 

[david8765]

We make sure we explain to every client that our experience and knowledge is there for them to use if they wish. If we think they are going to do something silly we will tell them but ultimately its their website, their money and their choice

 

[Christine Hough]

You would be surprised how much some people know about their customers and clients. How they have lived and nutured their businesses through ups and downs, fought the banks and other predators and then they come to a web designer....

Who often wants to change their branding before even asking about their market.
Changes the banner without reason.
Will not discuss the function BEFORE designing
And then says the client is deranged for not accepting it won't work!

I really value being challenged and asked why and intorduced to new ways of doing things by web designers, but I have had a couple of horrors where the design company thy to just go off and do what they think are best. And then get dogmatic/ litigeous when it is pointed out things are wrong.

Maybe if more was done in negotiating a thourough spec which goes into the style, the function and the periphery of each page and real detail about how the users want to need to use it then there would be ore mutual respect both ways.

I have written very detailed specifications .. going to 20something pages and find that developers rarely work from them or take the trouble to see the whole picture before starting.

I WANT to value and respect the skills of a developer. To do that there needs to be communication which is mutually respectful.

 

[herodigital]

hey, you think it's bad having crap clients - try working with account managers that are about as knowledgeable as the client! then you have to compete with two ignorant perspectives!

 

[Astaroth]

The customer is always right is wrong no matter what industry you work in.

The customer does pay your wages and that has to be factored in but it doesn't make them right.

 

[mit74]

Yeh I've found out it's easier to go with what they want rather than your own. You get 3 types of customer: Customer who lets you get on with it and gives you advice on colours, customer who knows exactly what they want and actually has some good ideas and taste, customers who 'know what they like' and finish up with an awful dated site. They show you example websites of what they like and they look really dated and cluttered.

 

[dzined]

Thanks for all of your repsonses so far.

Its interesting to see all the different and similar views, some great points raised!

 

[longleaf1]

Thanks!

Clicked on that link and within seconds I was smiling. This one should be made into a National Monument carved into a tablet of stone because I have heard it so many times myself:

"I know what I like and what I don’t like and I know what I want and what I don’t want, but I have nothing specific in mind"

Priceless

Thats the kind of thing my Mrs would say lol!

 

[novis]

A client went to a laptop repair shop and said that "coffee cup placing support" of his laptop was broken. The person incharge surpurised and asked him to show where it was located in his laptop?

The client turned on the laptop, and opened the "coffee cup placing support". It was his CD/DVD drive.

So, such is the knowledge of clients sometimes. At the end of the day, if you have some existing online examples to prove you right, it might be helpful.

 

[Christine Hough]

Sure there are people who are very ignorant.
Actually everyone started off that way.

But this culture of making fun of the customer affects your thought patterns.
Affect what you hear and take in.
Affects what you expect of them.
And hey ho ...you remeber their slip and not their requirment!

Even if they do not know what a cd driver are it does not mean they do not know about what they are selling, and have nothing of use to tell you.

Please can we have some respect!!
Rather than belittling!

 

[mit74]

A Three Page Site

Client: "Can you quote me for a three page site?"
Me: "Sure. What are the three pages?"
Client: "Home, Contact, and Login."


I really laughed when I read this

 

[maxh]

When it comes to SEO, SEM, webdesign and IT the customer is always wrong (99.9%)

Why?

Because it involves a different way of think and looking at things. If the customer already had that perspective then they would not need your help.

It would be like me telling a mechanic how to fix my car, or a general how to invade France.

Hands down the biggest obstacle in webdesign and web marketing is the person you work for.

 

[CraigieDD]

If you've got a sound rationale behind a design, it meets their goals for the site, looks great, is easy to use etc. and they still want to change it.....

Try the...

"This will cost you sales..."
"This will cost you leads..."
"This will cost you money.."
"We'll have to charge you for this change because it's out of specification."

 

[Christine Hough]

I now understand why websites get designed with major flaws in them when it comes to being used by ordinary people who are not IT specialists.

 

[papverpoppies]

Puts you off - if this is the way 'clients' get treated.

It's one thing to 'suspect' this is what happens, but another to read about it on a business forum.

Maybe, some of you are in danger of shooting yourself in the foot.

Poppy xx

 

[akirk]

A fascinating thread - but I tend to agree with Christine / Poppy... Horrifying to think that people view their clients like that - absolutely not the case.

A few thoughts:

Lets move away from this 'absolute' / 'black and white' stance. There is no such thing as a clearly defined right or wrong, esp. in web. Yes there is good practice, but to blunder in with the attitude of this is right and everything else is wrong is hardly helpful and doesn't always take into account the client's needs / thoughts /desires / etc.

The role of a web company is to do several things:
- To be expert in their field (coding / design / SEO / content / psychology / etc. etc. as applicable)
- To understand the client's business - you generally have 15 / 20 minutes to grasp the core essence of their business - you need to understand from that (even when your client doesn't) the focus / the drivers / the market / the product / the sales techniques / etc. etc.
- To understand the client - what are their needs / desires / aspirations / etc. A client running a shop selling books may be happy serving their local community, or may wish to turn it into Waterstones - understanding them is key.
- To take the client's thoughts / ideas / etc. and suggest a route forwards.
- To push where appropriate / to stretch the client a bit if that helps them towards fulfillment of their desires
- To explain why / how / what / etc.
- To listen to the client
- To explain impact / consequences of decisions
- To let the client make the choice (if there is a choice between x bringing 200 visitors a day to the website and y which will bring 2,000 explain the differences and let the client choose - they may have a different view from the web company, but ultimately it is their business - all you can do is dispassionately show the choices and then allow them to choose)

ultimately it is about bringing expertise and knowledge to the client and facilitating their making a choice. To imply / suggest / believe that they don't know what they are doing is ludicrous - I daily see evidence of design companies who clearly don't know what they are doing there are some around whose own websites need re-doing so to imply that the client has no knowledge / can not be right is incredibly arrogant - and down right wrong.

It is rather like a person who says they like roses being told that they should prefer daffodils because the person in the garden centre likes daffs! How ludicrous - people are allowed their own opinion - and as long as we open the client's eyes when a decision has practical implications, it is then their decision to make...

The real problem is that many (99.9% ?? ) web companies don't understand business... they take the approach of understanding coding / SEO / and lots of other fancy jargon - forgetting that business is not only about how many people you get to a website, nor how simple / clever / etc. the code / design is when you get there - business is about people - the business owners / the staff / their customers - and the web company's role is simply as servant - supplier in a service industry...

Alasdair

 

[Kernowman]

I have seen a couple of squabbles on here between developers about the tiny nuances of coding techinques and I am inclined to think that whatever falls out their client's mouth during the briefing and design stage is quickly seen as nothing more than a technical challenge to overcome, whereas it is in fact a marketing and then sales challenge before the technical guys get hold of the final implementation process. I think the best websites function on the KISS principle first and foremost, with ease of navigation and logical progression by the consumer, followed with a positive step forward on the sales process - either contact details gained or a sale.

I am not saying it is WRONG the way things are done, but I have seen far too many projects fall to pieces because the design hasn't been specified correctly from the outset, hence why the NHS computing system has become the laughing stock and many others too which have failed to perform and over-run budgets because of all the post specification messing about.

 

[CraigieDD]

Puts you off - if this is the way 'clients' get treated.

It's one thing to 'suspect' this is what happens, but another to read about it on a business forum.

Maybe, some of you are in danger of shooting yourself in the foot.

Poppy xx

Hi Poppy, I don't know if you were suggesting that I was shooting myself in the foot or not. But incase you were... ;-) ... I was merely suggesting a different way of expressing how important some design changes can be.

I've seen clients request changes that meant they were literally casting off thousands of customers. Explaining that this "will cost you money" is sometimes the only way to hit the point home. And it's directed at web development companies and not at clients. In the end everything we do we do in the best interests of our clients.

I think that some people just get a little frustrated by the lack of respect for their knowledge. A little like people arguing with Sarah Beeney on house development on T.V. if you catch my drift... ;-)

 

[Vision2]

You should blow some steam over here http://clientsfromhell.net/

I just go there and read a few of these whenever I feel like I'm sick of the clients and it makes me happy.

damn it, wish people would stop linking that site, i end up losing a good hour of my time

 

[maxh]

Also why do people lump SEO, programming and web design together?!?!

They're entirely different skill sets!

Design is about look and feel, its about photoshop, CSS, HTML, photography (maybe) and flash

Programming is about integration, complicated languages (javscript, java, pearl, C++, .php) information architecture and logic.

SEO is about optimising content for keywords, keyword and market reasearch, spreadsheets upon spreadsheets, analytics, copywriting, experiments, keeping up with the new technology, designing SE friendly content. It also requires an understanding of people, empathy, language and influence!

They are three TOTALLY different things.

 

[akirk]

I think that some people just get a little frustrated by the lack of respect for their knowledge. A little like people arguing with Sarah Beeney on house development on T.V. if you catch my drift... ;-)

Very true - but isn't a part of the skill set needed for this industry - the ability to explain to the client in a way in which they understand and makes sense to them - if the developer / designer / company can't put themselves into the shoes of their client and find a way of explaining it to them such that a light bulb goes on in their head and they understand that doing it another way will make them more money / hit their desires / needs, then that is failure...

part of the job is to first understand what the customer really wants - are they in it for commercial / money making reasons, or other reasons - then tie your suggestions to that.

The problem is that many design companies come to a situation from the point of view of their own skill set / industry knowledge / understanding - not from the perspective of the customer - sometimes it is necessary to put the same information in a different way to help them understand - you can not treat every client the same...

i.e. communication skills

if what the designer is saying is what they want then no client would turn it down - the issue is often:
a) it is not what they want
b) the designer has not been clear about how what they are suggesting relates to what the customer wants...

Alasdair

 

[SusanP]

I agree with Christine and Poppy and others. I have just had a quick look at some of the websites of those of you insisting that you know more than your clients do, and the idioms 'the pot calling the kettle black' and 'people in glasshouses ...' spring to mind. Here are some of the spelling and grammatical howlers on your websites:
* Marketing needn't cost much more than an a bit of your undivided attention
* Lets continue ...
* compare solicitors quotes
* Your corporate identity is one the things that sets you apart
* If you think its time for a style overhaul ...

Moreover, I found sentences consisting of fifty words, which would do Kafka proud, a confusion between complimentary services (ie free of charge ) and complementary services (ie enhancing) and confusing technical language and acronyms.

It's not surprising that your clients don't want to take your advice.

 

[Christine Hough]

Couldn't help a wry grin!

 

[herodigital]

@susan and @christine

Come off it. You can't put people down for using poor grammar on a message forum. It's quick and dirty communication, not website copy! More to the point, most here are not writers, they're designers, or developers so poor writing can be excused anyway.

I have worked in the design industry for 5 years (10 years if you include being a "hobbyist"). I fully reserve the right to complain about certain types of clients.

I have been told my skills are "10 a penny", I've been called on sunday evenings and I've had people expecting me to quite literally work for nothing.

I didnt spend years studying my craft to be taken for a mug, and treated with disrespect in the process.

The fact is, good designers will grow their clients business, and when you are faced with opposition from the client themselves with requests backed up by only their personal opinion (which is usually completely uninformed), it DOES cause a LOT of frustration. Times this by X amount over somebody's career, and you have a lot of pretty bad stories to tell.

I'm not mentioning names and I'm not tarring all clients with the same brush - there are some excellent companies and individuals out there that I have worked with - but I do reserve the right to have a rant on a message forum with my peers from time to time

 

[Pdsayers]

I think it boils down to the customer is paying, are you are providing the serviuce. Everyine has a differnet opinion. As long as you give your best professional advice and the customer STILL wants bloodstains failing down the website then let them have it!

On the other side if it is that bad that this could reflect badly on your company, you could refuse to continue working with that client.

 

[akirk]

Hero Digital, I think that Susan mentions those were found on companies' websites, not the message board...

and I think that it was comments such as:
When it comes to SEO, SEM, webdesign and IT the customer is always wrong (99.9%)
which are perhaps slightly inaccurate okay - some will be wrong, of course, but perhaps the % is the wrong way around?

Susan - if any of those mistakes are on our site - do let me know, dyslexic typing does attack occasionally

Alasdair

 

[jaffab]

Hmm, speaking of one who has just had his own web site refreshed, I have to say that I agree with the kettle - pot - black thing. I was quoted by various people to refresh my web site, and when I went to their own sites - gosh, the rich use of colour, nice flash intros and missing META tags sent me back to the good old 1990s

But then, whatever your industry, you tend to treat your own customers better than you treat yourself. I know accountants who are very badly overdrawn, marketing people with no business cards, and dont get me started on the "Our SEO services will get you on page #1"... really, how come if I google "SEO and your town", you are on page #9000?!?

 

[SusanP]

Alasdair:
commitment has one T in the middle
you sometimes write 'websites' and at other times 'web-sites' (former is better)
you sometimes write the word 'and' and sometimes use an ampersand (&). Be consistent.

 

[Christine Hough]

@susan and @christine

Come off it. You can't put people down for using poor grammar on a message forum. It's quick and dirty communication, not website copy! More to the point, most here are not writers, they're designers, or developers so poor writing can be excused anyway.

I think if you read the post these were quotes from the websites they have developed.

We all expect quick and easy writing on forums together with typos.
But websites should be checked!


However all I have asked for is for the developers to acknowledge that the customers may well know thier own market, the image they want to protect and the branding they may have spent years developing. I have not discredited the developers' skills but asked for a respectful attitude towards the client. It is sad if that inflames such a defensive response.

 

[JamieM]

Susan, I agree that is an issue but it's a copywriting issue rather than a web design issue. I'm sure it would be pretty unusual for a web designer to provide the copy as well.

I'm not sure how I feel about the OP's post. I think in my opinion web designers don't know everything, it is best to work together. If a client wants you to do something specific then you should do that but obviously it's important that the client be able to tell you exactly what they want.

 

[Be Known PR]

It is the same for all 'consultant' based industries/sectors/services.

All you can do is make sure you put your advice across clearly and concisely (preferably in writing so that if it turns out you are right and they feel they have paid for a service with no benefit you at least have something to fall back on) and then do what the client wants in the end.

Oh and on days when it has got really frustrating I fully advise going home at the end of the day and pouring a big glass of whiskey from the bottle bought with the fee paid by the clients who have hurt your feelings.....it is what I do...hiccup.