Staff reluctant to drive to internal meeting 1.5 miles away because of no business insurance on car!

[japancool]

If the Health & Safety policy doesn't say they shouldn't then they may have a case - they would have to prove why the employer is negligent though!

I will ensure I have a root vegetable policy in my manual.

 

[IanSuth]

As with any liability claim, the onus is on the injured party proving negligence against the other party (in this case their employer) - if they can show a failure of duty of care that lead to the injury they could have a case. Its all down to the specific details at the time.

Companies should start reviewing their Health & Safety policies to adapt these to home workers - as employers you may have a duty of care to ensure employees have a suitable environment and the "right tools" to work from home such as suitable desk, chair etc and they are not sat on the bed for 7 hours a day!

Unfortunately this is going to be the next big money spinner for ambulance chasing law firms - "did your employer give you a suitable chair.....If no, then get compensation for your bad back from ABC Injury Lawyers!"




There is a decent one out there: https://www.flex-home.app/




If the Health & Safety policy doesn't say they shouldn't then they may have a case - they would have to prove why the employer is negligent though!

Others getting apps out as we struggled with a poor Indian S/W house was one of the reasons for abandonment - although it was actually part of a suite of tools covering other HR/People things as well

 

[Ozzy]

Unfortunately this is going to be the next big money spinner for ambulance chasing law firms - "did your employer give you a suitable chair.....If no, then get compensation for your bad back from ABC Injury Lawyers!"

I actually did already consider this to be fair when lockdown happened, and everyone bit by bit came to the office to collect the ergo chairs to use at home ... and they never found their way back to the office

 

[DontAsk]

I would also recommend (i am sure you all do) check your cover has not changed especially if you just renew with same company but I am sure we all read the small print they send us and note any changes?

Some companies were quietly dropping the 3rd party cover when driving other people's vehicles.

Always read the small print!

 

[Employment Law Clinic]

I will ensure I have a root vegetable policy in my manual.

And this is why employers should not write their own manuals!


You need to cover both phallic fruit & veg, and also all phallic items & any other object that could (even by force) enter a worker.

Or just not bother with such random nonsense…



Karl Limpert

 

[IanSuth]

Some companies were quietly dropping the 3rd party cover when driving other people's vehicles.

Always read the small print!

Many many did that, along with redefining SDP to not include commuting, and on motorcycles to remove cover for carrying a pillion.

As I said earlier in the thread, my mate was supposed to realise a small print saying something like "note clause 13, a,b & e relate to this policy" should have alerted him to the fact that said clause had been changed from what it said 2 years prior (he went and checked past paperwork and had got away with 1 year commuting without the correct cover, it was the second year he was stopped and informed)

Also if there is ever an attempted claim against you make sure MID (and the insurers own systems) have the correct details or it can cost you loads down the line

just before lockdown i parked by a car with a stoved in drivers door in a rugby club car park. FF 10 months and when renewing insurance "computer says no", we rang and there was an outstanding claim against us - Aviva couldn't find a copy of the email they claim to have sent us asking us to contest or not and they never sent a letter. After much toing a froing,( luckily helped as I had taken a picture of my car that day after the bar staff said someone had asked to check the cctv to see if I had hit them but had been satisfied it was the landrover that left before I arrived) they finally agreed I had not caused the damage - but they changed MID to say it was a no fault accident, it took another 6 months to get it removed totally as we were nothing to do with the incident and I now even a non fault raises your premiums. Then wife renewed her bike insurance which is underwritten by Aviva and was surprised by a premium hike, sure enough after a bit of digging, the internal system still had the incident showing as a claim (and the car is in her name),
All in it took over 2 years from the incident toi remove it from all systems and the best part of £500 in compensation to us on Aviva's part for their abject failure to understand what had happened and their own systems - the icing on the cake was that the original claimant was also one of their customers so it hadnt even involved more than 1 company

 

[WaveJumper]

So if someone rogers themselves with a cucumber in their home office during working hours and it gets stuck, that's a work related injury? Does it need to be covered in the H&S manual?

Should be covered under manual handling and fully risk accessed I am would assume ?

 

[Bob Morgan]

This is probably why the inquest into the death of Gareth Williams (The MI6 Mathematician, whose body was found inside a locked holdall in 2010), recorded a verdict of 'Misadventure!' - He too had severe difficulties in walking 1.5 Miles!

 

[IanSuth]

Should be covered under manual handling and fully risk accessed I am would assume ?

Best make sure there is an allergen label on the vegetable as well - just in case

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

Likewise. Does the same apply if I drive my daughters car to the station to catch a train into London for business?

Even if the policy includes Personal Business Use for your daughter, it is likely to only be Social, Domestic and Pleasure for you - therefore you would not be insured.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks Frank, but at what point does the business aspect kick in, particularly if my trip involves social activity first and a brief business meeting second? If that meeting is cancelled, do I suddenly become insured after all?

 

[WaveJumper]

Probably just right for this thread - confused:

Car insurance classes of use explained

When we’re buying car insurance, we’re asked what class of use we want, and choosing the wrong one could be bad. So, let’s look at what your options are.

www.confused.com

 

[SillyBill]

To be honest this is simply about approach, and perhaps attitude to risk. I maintain I try and run a business which is 99% doing what it should be doing. Should one be locked up for the 1% turning of the eye? I would probably also maintain that if we did the other 1% we'd likely not be in business; lawmakers (mostly these things coming up are regulatory in nature) invent a million reasons to not be able to do anything, some of which is patently absurd. Same approach to COVID taken incidentally, use judgment and evaluate sensibility of action based on that.

I remember one occasion, a few years ago, we had to get the scales out when a (burly) employee refused to lift a 20L pail because it might exceed the 25kg limit. He was obviously bored that day because the last 20 years lifting it hadn't bothered him. It was something silly like 25.02kg. So point blank refusal. Of course he is technically correct but it is those sorts of moment you do wonder why you bother employing people at all as no amount of money makes it worth it to be arguing the toss over such things relative to the stress involved. I try and do the right thing but equally have little time for people working for me if they enjoy making my life as difficult as possible. That is the key test I have... is it reasonable or are they being difficult for the sake of it. The reality is everybody wants to just go home in one piece and be paid at day end. Work sensibly together to achieve the goal. I often find the black-and-white in these areas can be the cause of the problem, not the solution to it.

On insurance, I would probably play it safe incidentally but I am commenting as I would equally feel the OP's frustration.

 

[Bob Morgan]

Most prosecutions for Invalid Insurance following a Roadside Stop are the result of 'Self-Confessions!' Apart from 'Producing' your Driving Licence and Insurance (Sections 163 and 164 of the RTA) there is no requirement to 'Sing like a Canary' giving Details of your Journey, or Destination, etc. If Old Bill suspect that your Insurance Policy is invalid, they require evidence! - YOU do not have to give it to them!

 

[Frank the Insurance guy]

Thanks Frank, but at what point does the business aspect kick in, particularly if my trip involves social activity first and a brief business meeting second? If that meeting is cancelled, do I suddenly become insured after all?

All insurance claims are taken on their merit at the time. My initial concern on the above is the initial intent - ie. it was, or partly was, business related. Even if the event was cancelled after you made the journey you would be entitled to claim the travel mileage?

As with many things there are grey areas and no yes/no hypothetical answers.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

This is very dodgy ground !
If one of these boys and girls have a fault accident attending company business then they would be personally liable. Imagine if they hit a shop and injured somebody . How would you feel if that employee was made bankrupt because they were unable to meet the massive liability .

I dont take a chance at all The vans are insured for Hire and reward and my cars are on personal insurances . There is no way that I would put them on any work .

There is one exception there is this horrendous green Peugeot Combi What an ugly looking car I insured it on the business insurance so that I had an excuse to drive when ever or where ever I wanted in the lockdown (perks of the job )

 

[IanSuth]

Most prosecutions for Invalid Insurance following a Roadside Stop are the result of 'Self-Confessions!' Apart from 'Producing' your Driving Licence and Insurance (Sections 163 and 164 of the RTA) there is no requirement to 'Sing like a Canary' giving Details of your Journey, or Destination, etc. If Old Bill suspect that your Insurance Policy is invalid, they require evidence! - YOU do not have to give it to them!

Wrong

You don't have to give details of your insurance to them as MID (motor insurance database) is available to them roadside and shows exactly who and what is covered. Bizarrely it is not available to them in the station where you still have to produce paper based certificates (even if that means printing out the pdf from your insurance app). I know this after i tired to report an accident when someone sideswiped my mirror whilst i was stationary and I got the 3rd degree and a 7 day producer on Dec 23rd (had to pay for a reprint of my MOT certificate to be able to comply)

I would agree if you are stopped roadside you don't actually have to tell them where you are going BUT if you are difficult on a roadside stop whilston your way to work you will be there ages. Most of those stops are in conjunction with VOSA or whatever they are called and any stroppiness will get you a full roadside MOT test (which they are allowed to do) and I know my bike every year gets an advisory for "exhaust louder than usual but within acceptable limits" that is a subjective test, my MOT tester has his idea of acceptable, a VOSA guy roadside when you have annoyed them will likely have another and there is no objective measurement. How many bosses here would be happy with an employee not arriving until near 11 and saying he was stopped by the Police and they wanted to go through inch of their vehicle and they now have to take time off to get a defect rectified.

 

[The Byre]

there is no objective measurement.

85dB(A) @ 35mph at the curbside (i.e. 2m with no surrounding walls to reflect the sound) with an upper limit of 89dB(A) to allow for wear and tear. The police usually carry simple noise meters and they can and do issue notices for volumes above 90dB(A).

 

[simon field]

Of course, unless your tranny van is stuffed to the roof with business paraphernalia, a mobile invoicing system, a shredder and Patsy the office cleaner, you just say ‘no officer, I’m on my way to feed the ducks on the (name town or village) pond!

Job done ?

Edit: just be sure to always carry half a loaf of mother’s pride.

 

[IanSuth]

85dB(A) @ 35mph at the curbside (i.e. 2m with no surrounding walls to reflect the sound) with an upper limit of 89dB(A) to allow for wear and tear. The police usually carry simple noise meters and they can and do issue notices for volumes above 90dB(A).

Wrong - that is for a new bike designed now, also the Eu/UK standard noise test involves a ride by at exactly 50kph - 30mph is a good fudge but won't stand up in court (hence us scrapping all the old bike test centres and bringing in off road testing to allow the swerve and avoid at 50kph test because we didnt ask for a "or 30mph" in the 3rd driving licence directive)

There are also grandfather rights - bikes have to meet the limits in place at the time the model was originally homogenated, with a bit of leeway for fair wear and tear. Pre 1985 bikes have NO regulated limit at all (one of my bikes is 1983).

And this is from the MOT testers regs - my bike also specifically says in the owners manual you should not rev it over 1/3 revs at a standstill (large air cooled engine) - look how many wiggle words there are in it. "approximately", "such" "not clearly" "average"

8. Exhaust noise​

Exhaust noise rules and inspection for motorcycle MOT tests.
Hide all sections

8.1. Noise,Hidethis section​

8.1.1. Exhaust noise​

If possible, you should assess the exhaust noise by revving the engine to approximately half the maximum engine speed. The engine should be warm before you carry out this check.
It is not possible to rev the engine on twist and go type motorcycles.
The exhaust system and silencer should be in such condition, or of such a type, that the noise emitted from the motorcycle is not clearly unreasonably above the level expected from a similar motorcycle with a standard silencer in average condition.

 

[Airkon]

It's definately a business expence yeah.

However you might be missing the fact that they really don't want to have to travel for the meeting, perhaps another solution is in order, open up the floor for suggestions.
Even zoom/teams in different offices(I don't know what you do).
Or even "9am meeting on zoom from home THEN you commute into work" etc etc.
Hope this helps

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

A slight twist on an earlier question.
If I use my open top convertible BMW to transport a couple of lengths of timber or box of screws - intended for business use - is my Social, Domestic & Pleasure cover null and void?

 

[Newchodge]

A slight twist on an earlier question.
If I use my open top convertible BMW to transport a couple of lengths of timber or box of screws - intended for business use - is my Social, Domestic & Pleasure cover null and void?

Of course it is not. You have paid for it. However it is possible that, on that journey, you are not insured. And, if the police discover that you are not insured, your vehicle will be impounded.

 

[BustersDogs]

I don't ever remember commuting being part of SDP. It was always SPD plus travel to work.... but I haven't travelled to work in my own car since about 1991 or something, so maybe it came and went during that time. ?

 

[MBE2017]

I actually did already consider this to be fair when lockdown happened, and everyone bit by bit came to the office to collect the ergo chairs to use at home ... and they never found their way back to the office

What are you accusing your staff of Ozzie?

 

[Bob Morgan]

Third Party, Fire, Theft . . . and not forgetting 'Zombie Apocalypse Indemnity!'

 

[Annoying Donkey]

I'd say "On yer bike lads"...

 

[Ozzy]

What are you accusing your staff of Ozzie?

Nothing at all.....nothing...at...all... ?

 

[WaveJumper]

Social only – also known as social, domestic and pleasure (SDP)

Social-only cover is more generous than it sounds. It’s also known as social, domestic and pleasure, or ‘SDP’. So don’t worry, you haven’t been short-changed! Social use covers all non-work driving. This generally includes shopping, day trips and holidays plus visits to friends and family.

For many of us it’s all the cover we’ll ever need or want. If you think you might want to include the odd trip to the office, then you might want to consider social and commuting.

Social, domestic and pleasure including commuting (SDP+C)

This SDP+C car category offers additional cover for one single place of work. All the social cover you want to fit in away from work is also included. If you drop someone off at a railway station en route to your job, this should be included in your cover.

If you drive to the train station and then hop on a train to work, you should also be covered here. The ‘commuting’ bit here is important. By driving to a train station and dropping off your car in the car park, you’re leaving it in a public place.

 

[japancool]

Social only – also known as social, domestic and pleasure (SDP)

Social-only cover is more generous than it sounds. It’s also known as social, domestic and pleasure, or ‘SDP’. So don’t worry, you haven’t been short-changed! Social use covers all non-work driving. This generally includes shopping, day trips and holidays plus visits to friends and family.

For many of us it’s all the cover we’ll ever need or want. If you think you might want to include the odd trip to the office, then you might want to consider social and commuting.

Social, domestic and pleasure including commuting (SDP+C)

This SDP+C car category offers additional cover for one single place of work. All the social cover you want to fit in away from work is also included. If you drop someone off at a railway station en route to your job, this should be included in your cover.

If you drive to the train station and then hop on a train to work, you should also be covered here. The ‘commuting’ bit here is important. By driving to a train station and dropping off your car in the car park, you’re leaving it in a public place.

You didn't write that yourself, did you?

 

[WaveJumper]

You didn't write that yourself, did you?

Nope its from the link I supplied earlier its just getting pretty tiring when people don't seem to take on board the differences in cover and feel its a good idea to 'bend 'the rules all great till you need to make a claim

 

[fisicx]

Just checked our policy (direct line) and business and commuting are included. As always, read the policy!

 

[Jeff FV]

Just checked our policy (direct line) and business and commuting are included. As always, read the policy!

I have done the same.

We have two policies (for 2 cars!) - I am the main driver on one, my wife is on the other. Interestingly, on my wife’s policy, she (as main driver) can drive any car 3rd party, on my policy I can’t. I didn’t know that before I checked; glad I did.

 

[IanSuth]

Just checked our policy (direct line) and business and commuting are included. As always, read the policy!

And don't assume what is on your policy (was on your policy) is the same as others or what will be on your next year

 

[fisicx]

And don't assume what is on your policy (was on your policy) is the same as others or what will be on your next year

Absolutely. Which is why you should always read the policy. For example I saw a clause in one policy about proximity key fobs stating you may not be covered if contents are stolen if the car is left unattended.

 

[IanSuth]

Absolutely. Which is why you should always read the policy. For example I saw a clause in one policy about proximity key fobs stating you may not be covered if contents are stolen if the car is left unattended.

And yes always look up each of the clauses mentioned - no point skimming the doc you have to actually read it.

My bike one specifies the make of lock and type of anti theft marking I have to have or else my excess is doubled

 

[Newchodge]

And yes always look up each of the clauses mentioned - no point skimming the doc you have to actually read it.

My bike one specifies the make of lock and type of anti theft marking I have to have or else my excess is doubled

I wonder how many people, reading this thread, have looked out their insurance policies, just to check? Me for one.

 

[zefeena]

My understanding of this is it would still be commuting -going to work. When they go to a meeting this is work not business. Going to the post office to take company mail is business use. Carrying goods or people for business is business use. If anyone was carrying the white boards and presentation gear in their car then that’s business use, but everyone else is just going to work! I actually got class 1 business use on my car years ago when I was nursing, so I could ferry patients on days out and it was free!

 

[MAWuk]

Staff eh, who'd have them! Id assume this would be business use unless you can argue its commuting somehow, but I'm no expert.

Just chipping in to say I'm seeing much more push back and take take take from staff recently. I'm assuming it's because we are back in the office and they'd rather not be.

Staff are sick to their back teeth of having to pay to go to work and to most work related events! I won’t do it anymore, I won’t loose my money earned to it and I won’t won’t loose my time to it outside of my travel in and home. Staff during the pandemic have had time to realise just how much alot of employers and the work system in general shafts them. We’re sick of it. Most people give the best part of their lives to their employers and a lot of people have finally woken up to how unbalanced the ‘deal’ is in alot of cases. Of course these employers don’t see it that way it’s almost impossible for them to. This employer complaining about their staffs refusal to travel is a prime example of how it’s viewed from their angle without any further thought!

 

[Frank the Insurance guy]

My understanding of this is it would still be commuting

No, no, no, no and no....sorry but your understanding is wrong.Commuting is from your usual place of work. It is clear from the original post that this is definitely not the usual place of work.

 

[simon field]

My understanding of this is it would still be commuting -going to work. When they go to a meeting this is work not business. Going to the post office to take company mail is business use. Carrying goods or people for business is business use. If anyone was carrying the white boards and presentation gear in their car then that’s business use, but everyone else is just going to work! I actually got class 1 business use on my car years ago when I was nursing, so I could ferry patients on days out and it was free!

Nope.