Small Money Claims Advice

[sks]

Hello all, my wife recently sold her car and we are about to issue a small claim online and needed some advice on the following:
1. Although the car was in her name, I have been handling everything from the start and the sale agreement is in her name - She is quite nervous about attending court and was wondering if I can represent her and speak for her in court, although the claim will be in her name. Do we need to inform the court beforehand and does she need to mention this in her witness statement?
2. Where will the hearing be held - near our house, near the business office where we signed the paperwork or near the business head office? can we ask the court to have the hearing nearest us?
3. We covertly recorded a conversation (to cover ourselves) and would like to use this evidence in court - will this be allowed and do we need to mention this in our witness statement?
Thank you for your help

 

[Newchodge]

Hello all, my wife recently sold her car and we are about to issue a small claim online and needed some advice on the following:
1. Although the car was in her name, I have been handling everything from the start and the sale agreement is in her name - She is quite nervous about attending court and was wondering if I can represent her and speak for her in court, although the claim will be in her name. Do we need to inform the court beforehand and does she need to mention this in her witness statement?
2. Where will the hearing be held - near our house, near the business office where we signed the paperwork or near the business head office? can we ask the court to have the hearing nearest us?
3. We covertly recorded a conversation (to cover ourselves) and would like to use this evidence in court - will this be allowed and do we need to mention this in our witness statement?
Thank you for your help

You can assist her in court but you cannot answer questions on her behalf. She has to give her own evidence; that evidence could be 'I had nothing to do with the transaction and my husband acted on my behalf throughout'. Then you can give your own evidence (and witness statement).

If the original transaction was B2C (in other words you were not carrying out the transaction as a business of any kind), then it should be listed at your home court.

To use the recording, I suggest you write a formal transcript of it, include in the written statements how it came to be recorded and how it was transcribed and take it along, together with a device that allows everyone to listen to it, The transcript should be in your bundle of documents.I would speak to the court wll in advance about doing this as they may require something else.

 

[sks]

You can assist her in court but you cannot answer questions on her behalf. She has to give her own evidence; that evidence could be 'I had nothing to do with the transaction and my husband acted on my behalf throughout'. Then you can give your own evidence (and witness statement).

If the original transaction was B2C (in other words you were not carrying out the transaction as a business of any kind), then it should be listed at your home court.

To use the recording, I suggest you write a formal transcript of it, include in the written statements how it came to be recorded and how it was transcribed and take it along, together with a device that allows everyone to listen to it, The transcript should be in your bundle of documents.I would speak to the court wll in advance about doing this as they may require something else.

Many thanks, that's very helpful

 

[Michael Loveridge]

Why is your wife issuing the claim in the first place? You say she sold her car, so is it because she hasn't received payment?

Be careful - issuing a claim online is deceptively simple, but it's very easy to get it wrong. Even though it all seems fairly informal you are still involving yourself in court proceedings, and you have to ensure that you understand your legal position correctly before you go ahead.

In particular, you need to make sure exactly who it is that your claim is against - I've seen dozens of cases thrown out because the claimant sued the wrong person.

 

[sks]

Why is your wife issuing the claim in the first place? You say she sold her car, so is it because she hasn't received payment?

Be careful - issuing a claim online is deceptively simple, but it's very easy to get it wrong. Even though it all seems fairly informal you are still involving yourself in court proceedings, and you have to ensure that you understand your legal position correctly before you go ahead.

In particular, you need to make sure exactly who it is that your claim is against - I've seen dozens of cases thrown out because the claimant sued the wrong person.

Yes she has not received payment as the company wanted to rescind the contract after removing her details from the log book.

 

[Michael Loveridge]

I’m guessing it was Webuyanycar? It seems to be a regular occurrence with them, as I was involved in a very similar claim against them last year. Feel free to PM me if I can be of any assistance.

 

[sks]

I’m guessing it was Webuyanycar? It seems to be a regular occurrence with them, as I was involved in a very similar claim against them last year. Feel free to PM me if I can be of any assistance.

Hi Michael, that will be much appreciated. thank you, I'll PM you.

 

[MBE2017]

I wish you well, but their terms and conditions expressly provide for this scenario of rescinding the purchase, which just leaves changing the registered owner back. You might get something for the inconvenience but I doubt it, but best wishes.

 

[The Byre]

@sks You asked these questions last week about the car having had some undisclosed damage. If you sold to one of the usual Cazoos, We Buy Your Junk, or a larger dealership, you will have signed a contract in which you are obliged to make full disclosure of all known defects. Failure to make such a disclosure means that you sold a faulty car as being in good running order or not having been in an accident.

The fact that they offered you a £3k reduction would suggest an accident - what Americans would call a serious fender-bender. Damage like that is easily identified and does reduce the value of a car even if it has been professionally repaired.

What was the nature of the damage?

 

[sks]

Yes she has not received payment as the company wanted to rescind the contract after removing her details from the log book.

@sks You asked these questions last week about the car having had some undisclosed damage. If you sold to one of the usual Cazoos, We Buy Your Junk, or a larger dealership, you will have signed a contract in which you are obliged to make full disclosure of all known defects. Failure to make such a disclosure means that you sold a faulty car as being in good running order or not having been in an accident.

The fact that they offered you a £3k reduction would suggest an accident - what Americans would call a serious fender-bender. Damage like that is easily identified and does reduce the value of a car even if it has been professionally repaired.

What was the nature of the damage?

We disclosed the fault (they are saying we didn't) and they made a reduction for this, so that is our evidence, as well as witnesses, only thing we didn't disclose was that it was a cat U (unrecorded) which had a previous minor accident) which did not show up on HPI checks as there is no marker on a cat U car.

 

[japancool]

We disclosed the fault (they are saying we didn't)

Did you disclose it in writing?

 

[sks]

Did you disclose it in writing?

No, at the appointment

 

[japancool]

No, at the appointment

Then it's a case of he said, she said. You have witnesses. What if they have witnesses who can attest to the fact that they didn't hear you say it?

 

[sks]

Then it's a case of he said, she said. You have witnesses. What if they have witnesses who can attest to the fact that they didn't hear you say it?

so we'll let the judge decide whose evidence they prefer i guess

 

[MBE2017]

I could be wrong, but I doubt a judge will agree to a covert recording be admitted. You would need to provide proof any such recording has not been tampered with IMO, which is why many cases still insist on twin tape decks.

Electronic recordings can be altered very easily, with modern computers it can be very hard to tell. Even if it is allowed, the fact you did not disclose the vehicle being an unrecorded damaged vehicle will show exactly why this ability of reminding the purchase is necessary. The strange thing is, if you had openly told them, it might not have effected the overall value by much. It’s hard to trust someone once you see they have hidden important informatio.

 

[The Byre]

Everything will hinge on the nature of the defect and the fulsomeness of the disclosure you made on handover - assuming that your evidence of disclosure stands up and as someone who works with audio, I can take any recording and alter it so that you will have said anything I want you to have said. I can even make you sing the words in four-part harmony!

A cat-U just means that the car was repaired without involving some insurance company. It does not mean that the car did not sustain considerable and value-altering damage. It just means that any increase in insurance premium would have been so high that getting the car fixed was the cheaper option!

Over and above everything else in this thread - why do people sell to car-buying chains? These people make their money by buying cars CHEAPLY! They are not charities! Any and every fault must be flagged up as a major thing, diminishing the value by thousands - and every car that ever sniffed tarmac has X-amount of faults for them to find!

You still have not told us what the damage was.

 

[DontAsk]

I have personal experience of selling two cars to Cazoo and the process and prices could not have been any better. Maybe that's why they've practically gone bus, closing most of their reception centres. They were obviously buying to high and selling to low, LOL. Every fault does not knock off thousands, that's just ridiculous nonsense. In my case they didn't find any extra faults. In fact, they hardly looked at all. A quick drive from the customer parking to the rear of the garage and they were happy

 

[sks]

Everything will hinge on the nature of the defect and the fulsomeness of the disclosure you made on handover - assuming that your evidence of disclosure stands up and as someone who works with audio, I can take any recording and alter it so that you will have said anything I want you to have said. I can even make you sing the words in four-part harmony!

A cat-U just means that the car was repaired without involving some insurance company. It does not mean that the car did not sustain considerable and value-altering damage. It just means that any increase in insurance premium would have been so high that getting the car fixed was the cheaper option!

Over and above everything else in this thread - why do people sell to car-buying chains? These people make their money by buying cars CHEAPLY! They are not charities! Any and every fault must be flagged up as a major thing, diminishing the value by thousands - and every car that ever sniffed tarmac has X-amount of faults for them to find!

You still have not told us what the damage was.

It was just very light rear bumper damage and the gearbox error light was on, but the car was test driven and working fine when handed over

 

[Newchodge]

Everything will hinge on the nature of the defect and the fulsomeness of the disclosure you made on handover - assuming that your evidence of disclosure stands up and as someone who works with audio, I can take any recording and alter it so that you will have said anything I want you to have said. I can even make you sing the words in four-part harmony!

Exactly the same can be said of all evidence in court. Just because an oath is sworn to tell the truth does not mean that the witness tells the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The transcript is introduced with a sworn statement as to how the recording was made, how the transcript was produced and that they are both accurate. The opposition has thr chance to swear the opposite. The judge decides if they belive either party or if the truth is somewhere in the miiddle..

 

[The Byre]

It was just very light rear bumper damage and the gearbox error light was on, but the car was test driven and working fine when handed over

That is not what you wrote in this thread here - https://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/threads/legal-advice-re-breach-of-contract-claim.422565/

According to that thread, the car did not go into gear, i.e. the linkages were broken. If the car no longer goes into gear, then it has to be beaver-tailed to a garage and either the linkage is broken (often the case with French cars) or the whole gearbox is shot. We-Buy-Any-Car (or any other dealership) needs cars that can be driven and are roadworthy.

If it is just a linkage problem, that will cost about £500 to fix properly and is not something that a Stig-With-A-Spanner can do at the curbside. Bodging the job with bits of wire is the worst thing you can do as that will last a couple of hours and then you are legally obliged to take the car back, regardless of who you sell the car to.

Fixing the car properly is your cheapest option and if it has gone to auction already then there is nothing you can do about it and you will just have to take the hit.

Having looked at the threads you have started dealing with legal issues (some 20 or so in all!) over the past five years, I find that a remarkable record. I have been running a business in the UK for 23+ years and ran businesses in Germany for about 20 years before that and in all that time, we have had two non-paying customers against whom we had to litigate. That was in Germany and we won both cases and we got our money in both cases.

How do you manage to have so many legal problems in such a short time?

 

[sks]

That is not what you wrote in this thread here - https://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/threads/legal-advice-re-breach-of-contract-claim.422565/

According to that thread, the car did not go into gear, i.e. the linkages were broken. If the car no longer goes into gear, then it has to be beaver-tailed to a garage and either the linkage is broken (often the case with French cars) or the whole gearbox is shot. We-Buy-Any-Car (or any other dealership) needs cars that can be driven and are roadworthy.

If it is just a linkage problem, that will cost about £500 to fix properly and is not something that a Stig-With-A-Spanner can do at the curbside. Bodging the job with bits of wire is the worst thing you can do as that will last a couple of hours and then you are legally obliged to take the car back, regardless of who you sell the car to.

Fixing the car properly is your cheapest option and if it has gone to auction already then there is nothing you can do about it and you will just have to take the hit.

Having looked at the threads you have started dealing with legal issues (some 20 or so in all!) over the past five years, I find that a remarkable record. I have been running a business in the UK for 23+ years and ran businesses in Germany for about 20 years before that and in all that time, we have had two non-paying customers against whom we had to litigate. That was in Germany and we won both cases and we got our money in both cases.

How do you manage to have so many legal problems in such a short time?

Wow, I actually find it remarkable that you have analysed all my threads over 5 years (some of which I have or would have liked to forget) and decided to comment on your findings and then comparing my legal "record" with yours.
I always believe legal action should always be a last resort actually.
I have a good idea of what you seem to be insinuating though.

 

[DontAsk]

That is not what you wrote in this thread here - https://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/threads/legal-advice-re-breach-of-contract-claim.422565/

Should have gone to specsavers:

They drove and tested the car and were happy to proceed.
A few days later they failed to pay for the car and informed us they would be cancelling the contract as the car was not able to go into gear.

My emphasis.

 

[kulture]

I think that the key point that needs to be emphasised is that the gear box warning light was lit before it was sold and then the gear box failed after it was sold. Since the car was sold to a commercial car dealer I would have expected them to take into account the likelihood of gear failure given that the warning light was on. This is not so much a he said/ didn’t say dispute when there is a clear warning light lit .

 

[fisicx]

It was just very light rear bumper damage and the gearbox error light was on, but the car was test driven and working fine when handed over

Was the warning light disclosed? Might have driven OK but the light is there to tell you there is a fault. The dealer can’t sell a car with a warning light. I seem to recall changes to the MOT saying any warning light is an automatic fail.

 

[IanSuth]

Was the warning light disclosed? Might have driven OK but the light is there to tell you there is a fault. The dealer can’t sell a car with a warning light. I seem to recall changes to the MOT saying any warning light is an automatic fail.

Any warning light can be a fail BUT, it only has to go off for a second to pass.

My (now son's) 2005 Skoda Octavia has an electrical gremlin, the engine warning light kept coming on Yellow, when plugged into the dealers VAG diagnostics machine it was saying there was an erroneous reading from a temp sensor on the DSG gearbox - which would be great except it was a manual so has no DSG gearbox or associated sensor.

The VAG recommended solution was a precautionary replacement of the entire wiring loom because basically, they couldn't be bothered to diagnose the actual issue.

The local MOT/Repair place on double checking the issue has for the last 4 years done a warning light system reset and as long as not immediately back on, will MOT the car and pass it. Last year the light came back on 1/2 mile after leaving the MOT.

 

[The Byre]

I think that the key point that needs to be emphasised is that the gear box warning light was lit before it was sold and then the gear box failed after it was sold. Since the car was sold to a commercial car dealer I would have expected them to take into account the likelihood of gear failure given that the warning light was on. This is not so much a he said/ didn’t say dispute when there is a clear warning light lit .

The OP signed a contract giving the dealer (we assume it was We Buy Any Car) the right to reject and set a new price 15 days later. The first stated price is what Americans call the 'Blue Book' price, i.e. wholesale list price. The dealer then assesses the car properly and reduces the value accordingly.

What they do not do is waste time and effort by getting the car repaired and then reduce the value by the cost of the repair. They just assume the worst (e.g. a totally new gearbox!) and either reduce accordingly or just reject totally.

They need to have the car out of their system, sold and paid for and off their lot within a month.

 

[kulture]

I take your point about the contract. I have never sold a car to them and if I was ever tempted I would have read the contract and walked away. When I sell a car I do so as seen. I am not an expert and if I sell to a dealer I expect them to know more than me and give me a price that they will stick to. Not come back in the next couple of weeks with a lower price.

If I had a car with a gear box warning light on then I would assume that the dealer would notice that, assume the worst and offer a price accordingly.

Not offer me one price, take the car away and then reduce that price by thousands a week or so later.

As it is a consumer to business contract then there is a chance that a judge would rule it unfair.

Personally I think is totally unfair and would thus never sign such a contract.

 

[Newchodge]

I take your point about the contract. I have never sold a car to them and if I was ever tempted I would have read the contract and walked away. When I sell a car I do so as seen. I am not an expert and if I sell to a dealer I expect them to know more than me and give me a price that they will stick to. Not come back in the next couple of weeks with a lower price.

If I had a car with a gear box warning light on then I would assume that the dealer would notice that, assume the worst and offer a price accordingly.

Not offer me one price, take the car away and then reduce that price by thousands a week or so later.

As it is a consumer to business contract then there is a chance that a judge would rule it unfair.

Personally I think is totally unfair and would thus never sign such a contract.

Does the buying company see the vehicle before purchase?

 

[kulture]

I can’t speak for all of them but the tendency is for the seller to fill in an online form, the buyer then offers a price, the seller then takes the car to the buyer who inspects it and offers a lower price which the seller either accepts or drives away.

 

[IanSuth]

Does the buying company see the vehicle before purchase?

We buy any car have local sites where you rock up and they give it a cursory once over, knock some money off for cosmetics and take it from you - so yes they in my mind have every opportunity to inspect the vehicle as if an expert before the exchange is made

 

[sks]

Does the buying company see the vehicle before purchase?

Yes, they see the vehicle before purchase and make a video of it driving back and forwards, as well as taking photos of the dashboard, engine etc and a HPI check as well. They have every opportunity to check it out.
Instead, they are relying on a term such as the seller needs to: "disclose all matters which a prudent purchaser would want to know about... or we reserve the right to rescind the contract"
I feel this is too onerous on the seller - how do we know what they need to know and how can we be expected to know everything wrong with a car

 

[sks]

I take your point about the contract. I have never sold a car to them and if I was ever tempted I would have read the contract and walked away. When I sell a car I do so as seen. I am not an expert and if I sell to a dealer I expect them to know more than me and give me a price that they will stick to. Not come back in the next couple of weeks with a lower price.

If I had a car with a gear box warning light on then I would assume that the dealer would notice that, assume the worst and offer a price accordingly.

Not offer me one price, take the car away and then reduce that price by thousands a week or so later.

As it is a consumer to business contract then there is a chance that a judge would rule it unfair.

Personally I think is totally unfair and would thus never sign such a contract.

Thanks, you make some very good points, which will be most useful for me

 

[The Byre]

As it is a consumer to business contract then there is a chance that a judge would rule it unfair.

That's the point in all this that sticks out. If WBAC made a firm offer that was rescinded on the grounds of hidden defects, they may be having to rely on some rather vague drafting in a contract.

Yes, they see the vehicle before purchase and make a video of it driving back and forwards, as well as taking photos of the dashboard, engine etc and a HPI check as well. They have every opportunity to check it out.

If a warning light was indeed on, whoever took that car and accepted it and made an offer as a representative of the dealership needs smacking! The fair thing to do would have been to reject there and then and suggest what could be wrong and what it would cost to fix.

Furthermore, if a warning light was on, then the defects were not hidden. The dealer would have very obviously seen that light and should have rejected the sale there and then - and not days later.

the seller needs to: "disclose all matters which a prudent purchaser would want to know about... or we reserve the right to rescind the contract"

If those are the words of the contract and there are no other clauses affecting a possible revaluation or rejection, then IMO they had no grounds for a reduction or to reject the sale at a later date. The devil will be lurking - as always - in the details.

 

[IanSuth]

That's the point in all this that sticks out. If WBAC made a firm offer that was rescinded on the grounds of hidden defects, they may be having to rely on some rather vague drafting in a contract.


If a warning light was indeed on, whoever took that car and accepted it and made an offer as a representative of the dealership needs smacking! The fair thing to do would have been to reject there and then and suggest what could be wrong and what it would cost to fix.

Furthermore, if a warning light was on, then the defects were not hidden. The dealer would have very obviously seen that light and should have rejected the sale there and then - and not days later.

If those are the words of the contract and there are no other clauses affecting a possible revaluation or rejection, then IMO they had no grounds for a reduction or to reject the sale at a later date. The devil will be lurking - as always - in the details.

Basically wbac (or the like) rely on sellers who are desperate for money, any money, just signing on the line without reading and then not having there wherewithal or money to argue their day in court if it goes pear shaped