Should I be aiming to sell in departmental stores?

[Har]

Dear members,

It's a pleasure to be here and I wish you all a very happy 2025!

I recently launched my online brand 2 months ago, which has gotten a lot of good traction online. Brand is 2 months old, and we participated in a fashion show in Paris last Nov.
I have been in touch with a business consultant for the last 1 month, who is pushing me to consider selling to departmental stores. This is where I am two-minded. If I sell to dept stores and want them to sell at my RRP I sell currently, then I barely make any profits (after all my expenses). If I sell to them at a normal markup wholesale price, then they will sell my products at £250 after they add their own markup, and thus, I will also have to sell at this price on my website. Based on previous feedback I have received, £250 is too high for enough people to be interested in my products, however, it does allow get back my initial investment quicker, but I am also interested in making the business sustainable.

What would you advise me to do? I am very confused.

My brand is called Harizan and is based in the UK, I only have 4 products right now.

 

[Mark T Jones]

It would be interesting to know the consultant's thought process behind this suggestion. (Hopefully a bit more than the notion that all growth is good growth.

As a starting point, I'd look at standard T&Cs for the target stores - and do some best/worst case projections around their terms. Cracking retail can literally make or break a business - your narrative leans to the latter, but you really need to know...

 

[Har]

It would be interesting to know the consultant's thought process behind this suggestion. (Hopefully a bit more than the notion that all growth is good growth.

As a starting point, I'd look at standard T&Cs for the target stores - and do some best/worst case projections around their terms. Cracking retail can literally make or break a business - your narrative leans to the latter, but you really need to know...

Thank you for your reply. That's indeed all I have from the consultant, and, they get a 15% commission on the sales.

That's a good suggestion, thank you. Let me look into that.

 

[thetiger2015]

"If I sell to dept stores and want them to sell at my RRP I sell currently, then I barely make any profits (after all my expenses)."

It's too soon I think.

To crack department stores, you need an actual wholesale distribution plan and your pricing needs a strategy. You'll also have to consider future costs - VAT? Shipping costs? Promotional costs when you stock your products with some department stores (they sometimes expect you to contribute towards marketing your products in store), plus you'll have to spend time talking to buying departments etc.

Personally, I'd let your brand grow over the next 12 months and then try limited in-store releases with selected, high-end, independent stockists.

"Based on previous feedback I have received, £250 is too high for enough people to be interested in my products" <<<< Who's feedback?

I think this all depends on your long-term goals with this business. Do you want to have a brand that's sold in hundreds of locations, at a lower RRP or do you want to have a luxury, limited-edition style brand that only sells with selected stockists in London, Paris, New York etc. They're two different business types, with different strategies and price points.

 

[BusterBloodvessel]

Sack your "consultant".

 

[fisicx]

@Har, department stores will not be interested in your 4 non-descript products. They can all be easily reproduced at far lower costs by any clothing factory.

Focus on online sales and when the brand is recognised nationally you can then look at B&M retail.

As already suggested, your consultant is a complete numpty.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

'Our unique three waist-buttons design as well as an elastic band at the back ensure to give you the best fit, no matter your body shape. Hence, our designs are well suited for also pear-shaped ladies.'

I used a similar term once and ended up cooking my own tea for a week

 

[WaveJumper]

Yes I think I would be parting company with the consultant, don’t run before you can walk you need to build your brand and get it well established.

I would also advice whatever the future holds you need to keep control, and by this I mean, yep all going great online, your all over socail media, you take on several retailers to sell your product things are looking even better until they all discount your stock and undermine your online sales

 

[Har]

"If I sell to dept stores and want them to sell at my RRP I sell currently, then I barely make any profits (after all my expenses)."

It's too soon I think.

To crack department stores, you need an actual wholesale distribution plan and your pricing needs a strategy. You'll also have to consider future costs - VAT? Shipping costs? Promotional costs when you stock your products with some department stores (they sometimes expect you to contribute towards marketing your products in store), plus you'll have to spend time talking to buying departments etc.

Personally, I'd let your brand grow over the next 12 months and then try limited in-store releases with selected, high-end, independent stockists.

"Based on previous feedback I have received, £250 is too high for enough people to be interested in my products" <<<< Who's feedback?

I think this all depends on your long-term goals with this business. Do you want to have a brand that's sold in hundreds of locations, at a lower RRP or do you want to have a luxury, limited-edition style brand that only sells with selected stockists in London, Paris, New York etc. They're two different business types, with different strategies and price points.

Thank you so much for your advice. You have said a lot of the things that were on my mind, but I needed to hear it from someone to validate my thoughts.

My goal with the brand, eventually, is to provide a cheaper alternative to the likes of Zimmerman, Gucci, LV, etc. and you're right, adding retail markups at this point wouldn't be helpful to this end.

 

[Har]

@Har, department stores will not be interested in your 4 non-descript products. They can all be easily reproduced at far lower costs by any clothing factory.

Focus on online sales and when the brand is recognised nationally you can then look at B&M retail.

As already suggested, your consultant is a complete numpty.

Thank you for your response.

Yes, that was going to be for the Sept sale season, so we would develop a new collection for departmental stores. The new collection is not on the website yet.

 

[Har]

'Our unique three waist-buttons design as well as an elastic band at the back ensure to give you the best fit, no matter your body shape. Hence, our designs are well suited for also pear-shaped ladies.'

I used a similar term once and ended up cooking my own tea for a week

I'm unsure what you mean. Is it considered offensive? I have a pear-shaped body, along with many people that I know, and it's always difficult to find well-fitted items especially in Europe where a lot of women have an apple-shaped body.

 

[Har]

Yes I think I would be parting company with the consultant, don’t run before you can walk you need to build your brand and get it well established.

I would also advice whatever the future holds you need to keep control, and by this I mean, yep all going great online, your all over socail media, you take on several retailers to sell your product things are looking even better until they all discount your stock and undermine your online sales

Thank you for your response, I had not thought about that perspective. I agree with all the advice received from here. We'll part ways with the consultant.

 

[fisicx]

I'm unsure what you mean. Is it considered offensive? I have a pear-shaped body, along with many people that I know, and it's always difficult to find well-fitted items especially in Europe where a lot of women have an apple-shaped body.

Then why aren’t you showing models with different shaped bodies?

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

I'm unsure what you mean. Is it considered offensive? I have a pear-shaped body, along with many people that I know, and it's always difficult to find well-fitted items especially in Europe where a lot of women have an apple-shaped body.

On your front page you start with a mixed message by alienating normal sizing, highlighting 'pear shaped', then state that your garments compliment all body shapes?

'we do not follow industry standard messages as they do not cater for pear-shaped ladies. Fit is important to us, we compliment all body shape'

I'm not best placed to say whether it's offensive or just being honest?

​

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

. If I sell to dept stores and want them to sell at my RRP I sell currently, then I barely make any profits

And so you hit the dilemma faced with most people who sell direct and without experience of retail.

You have set your pricing (and are selling?) based on your margin requirements. You now need to consider retailer margin (50%+ in fashion), settlement terms (payment discounts and 30/60/90/120 day settlement), returns, marketing contributions, sale reduction compensation, concession costs, consignment etc....

Whilst the consultant is correct, you should look at retailers, if they didn't discuss the above and options, other people suggestions about ditching them may be wise!

 

[Har]

Then why aren’t you showing models with different shaped bodies?

We show them on our social media. You're right though, someone who only visits the website wouldn't know. Thanks for pointing out, we will change that.

 

[Har]

On your front page you start with a mixed message by alienating normal sizing, highlighting 'pear shaped', then state that your garments compliment all body shapes?

'we do not follow industry standard messages as they do not cater for pear-shaped ladies. Fit is important to us, we compliment all body shape'

I'm not best placed to say whether it's offensive or just being honest?

​

I'm confused at the point you are trying to make. Yes, we do not follow industry measurements mostly because the standard thigh measurements don't allow for pear-shaped women to wear them, so for instance, many women who are a waist size 8 will end up buying a size 10-12 so that their thighs can fit. That's the problem we are trying to address.

As for complimenting all body shapes, that's true. Even if you have an apple shape, the pants do not highlight that and give you a more hourglass shape. That's why high end designers will tell more women to wear ballgowns and lehengas because they are complimentary to most body shapes. It's the same concept.

 

[Har]

And so you hit the dilemma faced with most people who sell direct and without experience of retail.

You have set your pricing (and are selling?) based on your margin requirements. You now need to consider retailer margin (50%+ in fashion), settlement terms (payment discounts and 30/60/90/120 day settlement), returns, marketing contributions, sale reduction compensation, concession costs, consignment etc....

Whilst the consultant is correct, you should look at retailers, if they didn't discuss the above and options, other people suggestions about ditching them may be wise!

Thank you for your kind reply.

 

[Lucan Unlordly]

I'm confused at the point you are trying to make. Yes, we do not follow industry measurements mostly because the standard thigh measurements don't allow for pear-shaped women to wear them, so for instance, many women who are a waist size 8 will end up buying a size 10-12 so that their thighs can fit. That's the problem we are trying to address.

As for complimenting all body shapes, that's true. Even if you have an apple shape, the pants do not highlight that and give you a more hourglass shape. That's why high end designers will tell more women to wear ballgowns and lehengas because they are complimentary to most body shapes. It's the same concept.

I was looking at it from a sales perspective.
If I buy my wife something I know what her 'industry standard' size is and stand a good chance of getting it wrong because I don't know if she's a Pear an Apple or a Banana!

 

[Clinton]

There was a new cafe selling Mac 'n Cheese. I visited it about a month after opening. It was dead quiet and I got to speak with the owner. He spoke a lot about how he was going to franchise the business and get bigger than MacDonalds.

The cafe closed for good a month later.

Before you think of conquering the world, learn business, establish the brand (so far nobody knows about it apart from your mum and half a dozen people in this forum), get the basics sorted.

Make the business profitable, grow your margin (which is something you've already recognised as a problem), take on employees, build a buffer of size (small businesses are far more vulnerable than large ones), learn the lingo, get the marketing right.

I'm familiar with the well known 'standard shapes' of women, but I'm old and wise and have learnt not to tell women, to their face, that they're pear shaped.

Jesus man, you trying to sell product or trying to get killed?!

Maybe at that point you can approach departmental stores and they won't laugh you out of the room. You'll be able to demonstrate size, capacity, financial stability and whatever else they demand (diversity, eco credentials, evidence of not using child labour, whatever).

Oh, one more thing, learn to choose consultants. You seem to gravitate towards those who'd blow smoke up your ass. What made you choose this consultant and how much did you pay? Or was it free for the first session and then you pay from the next one?!

 

[prinsreintje]

I would rather focus on building a small network of online resellers (platforms/dropshippers/affiliates) for a CPA of let's say 15%- 20% for each sale they get you.
Do you currently have an affiliate program running?

 

[Socio South West]

OP needs to clarify what department stores the Consultant character has under consideration - Most posts appear to be assuming national or regional large chain multiple stores, whereas in many country towns there are still a good number of smaller independent (and often family run) department stores who are likely to be keen to work with producers of items not available in their larger competitors.

OP needs to plan the expansion of the business carefully, with or without the consultant, to get budgets and achievable projections to develop the business. Blundering into it without planning from the current size of enterprise is a route to disaster
OP is very correct - there is a big step up in costs changing from selling via a website to selling through retailers, and thus pricing will probably have to be revised.

I see arguments for both paths.

 

[Har]

There was a new cafe selling Mac 'n Cheese. I visited it about a month after opening. It was dead quiet and I got to speak with the owner. He spoke a lot about how he was going to franchise the business and get bigger than MacDonalds.

The cafe closed for good a month later.

Before you think of conquering the world, learn business, establish the brand (so far nobody knows about it apart from your mum and half a dozen people in this forum), get the basics sorted.

Make the business profitable, grow your margin (which is something you've already recognised as a problem), take on employees, build a buffer of size (small businesses are far more vulnerable than large ones), learn the lingo, get the marketing right.

I'm familiar with the well known 'standard shapes' of women, but I'm old and wise and have learnt not to tell women, to their face, that they're pear shaped.

Jesus man, you trying to sell product or trying to get killed?!

Maybe at that point you can approach departmental stores and they won't laugh you out of the room. You'll be able to demonstrate size, capacity, financial stability and whatever else they demand (diversity, eco credentials, evidence of not using child labour, whatever).

Oh, one more thing, learn to choose consultants. You seem to gravitate towards those who'd blow smoke up your ass. What made you choose this consultant and how much did you pay? Or was it free for the first session and then you pay from the next one?!

Thank you for your advice.

Re. your question, I didn't pay anything. Just did my due diligence and chose someone who had years of experience in the field, agreed to work on commission basis, and wasn't promising the world.

 

[Har]

I would rather focus on building a small network of online resellers (platforms/dropshippers/affiliates) for a CPA of let's say 15%- 20% for each sale they get you.
Do you currently have an affiliate program running?

Thank you. I considered that, but I refrained from it as it would be driving people away from my website to other websites, and I also want to keep the margins low for the first few years.

 

[Har]

OP needs to clarify what department stores the Consultant character has under consideration - Most posts appear to be assuming national or regional large chain multiple stores, whereas in many country towns there are still a good number of smaller independent (and often family run) department stores who are likely to be keen to work with producers of items not available in their larger competitors.

OP needs to plan the expansion of the business carefully, with or without the consultant, to get budgets and achievable projections to develop the business. Blundering into it without planning from the current size of enterprise is a route to disaster
OP is very correct - there is a big step up in costs changing from selling via a website to selling through retailers, and thus pricing will probably have to be revised.

I see arguments for both paths.

Thank you - agreed.

 

[Porky]

Don't want to sound a pessimist but I would be avoiding selling to the stores. As I have discovered, next thing some other numpty will copy you and sell it for FA then your online sales will suffer as savvy buyers will buy cut price versions elsewhere.

Advice of @fisicx is spot on imo - get your brand established first. I would focus on maintaining decent margins for now rather than being a busy fool

 

[Mark T Jones]

Thank you for your advice.

Re. your question, I didn't pay anything. Just did my due diligence and chose someone who had years of experience in the field, agreed to work on commission basis, and wasn't promising the world.

Sounds like you're referring to a sales agent, which is rather different

If so, their motivation will come entirely from turnover, without regards to the impact on the business itself

 

[Clinton]

Re. your question, I didn't pay anything. Just did my due diligence and chose someone who had years of experience in the field, agreed to work on commission basis, and wasn't promising the world.

You need to get better at doing "due diligence".

No "business consultant" worth his salt will work on those terms. Anybody willing to work on those terms is a newbie to the game, clueless, still learning the ropes and/or who needs to make such concessions to get new clients.

 

[Ivanzyt]

Dear lord the negativity above is appalling. Everyone seems to have piled on slagging off your strategy, your consultant, and your entire business plan without actually have any of the information required to make any judgment at all. I doubt very much whether there are any experts in the field here to be honest.

Ok, so this dilemma is common, do you up sales volume at reduced margins via resellers? And how do you give them enough margin given that you have established the RRP on direct sales? This can be tricky. A retailer needs big margins to make it worth their while and, depending on what margins you make selling directly there might not be enough margin there to make resellers worth it. If you are so squeezed on margins going through resellers is it worth doing?

That's the crux of the matter as I see it.

Things to consider:

Will the increased volume from resellers help lower your cost per unit? That might be the case in which case you suddenly generate more margin.

Will the increased exposure from the resellers give you "free" marketing for your brand? Part of what you pay for is shop front exposure. This is great marketing and could lead to more direct (high-margin) sales.

Can your existing customer base tolerate an increase in RRP? What you can't really do is have a much lower price on your website than that which people can buy it for in the stores as this will annoy any resellers you do get on board. So do your sums carefully and see what is the maximum price the market will tolerate.

Watch out for cash flow. The best thing about selling direct (apart from the higher margins) is that you get the money right away. Some resellers will insist on 60 + day payment terms. Some might want consignment stock. This all leads to delayed payments so you need to make sure you have the working capital to fund this.

Watch out for stock level control. This can be a nightmare, there is noting worse that a reseller running out of stock and it not being able to be restocked. Depending on how the product is made there could be long lead times to restock so managing production to meet stock can be tricky, especially when you are starting off with unknown resellers, you have no idea how much they will actually sell and how quickly. I'm having this challenge myself, some of our products have just gone online with two huge retail markets and we are just coming into season for the product and I honestly don't know if I have stock levels right. Restocking would take about 3 weeks from my supplier so if there is a mad rush and I have got my sums wrong I might not be able to restock them in time ..... which would be bad!

 

[fisicx]

Dear lord the negativity above is appalling. Everyone seems to have piled on slagging off your strategy, your consultant, and your entire business plan without actually have any of the information required to make any judgment at all. I doubt very much whether there are any experts in the field here to be honest.

They have 4 mediocre products that can easily be reproduced on masse. There is nothing any department store would want.

If they had a huge online following, were endorsed in fashion magazines, worn by celebs and had a much larger range then they might have something worth offering. But they don't. Hence the negativity. @Har needs to build up the brand first and show large numbers of products are being sold daily.

 

[Ivanzyt]

They have 4 mediocre products that can easily be reproduced on masse. There is nothing any department store would want.

If they had a huge online following, were endorsed in fashion magazines, worn by celebs and had a much larger range then they might have something worth offering. But they don't. Hence the negativity. @Har needs to build up the brand first and show large numbers of products are being sold daily.

You do not have enough information to make those claims or judgements. Unless you understand that market segment very well you are just giving a highly subjective opinion based on your priors. If you are an expert on fashion retail then OK, maybe your opinion is worth something but I think you are a word press developer right? And no you don't need to necessarily build you a brand and sell a large number of products first to get goods into retailers. Sure, that can help its one strategy but I have products with minimal brand equity that sell very well through reseller channels and which I barely sell any directly. It depends on the product, the market and the context all of which you have almost no information on. Certainly not enough to be making such sweeping statements.

 

[fisicx]

Sure, that can help its one strategy but I have products with minimal brand equity that sell very well through reseller channels and which I barely sell any directly.

Are they fashion items?

Reseller channels are very different to a department store.

Have you even looked at what they are selling? (except you can't as they are out of stock but there are picture on Instagram)

 

[Ivanzyt]

Are they fashion items?

Reseller channels are very different to a department store.

Have you even looked at what they are selling?

A department store is just a reseller channel.
Me looking at and giving my opinion on fashion items is completly pointless. I know nothing about fashion. But I do know about selling products through mixed channels (direct, online market places, bricks and mortar stores) so I have confined my advice to those areas. Maybe you are an expert on fashion retail I thought you were a web dev but hey ho I guess there is a slim chance of some overlap on that venn diagram.

 

[fisicx]

Selling fashion is a totally different ballgame. A good friend is a buyer for a national chain and we talk a lot. There are thousands of small business all pushing their products to fashion retail. They almost all fail as their offerings aren't anything special or are not sellable in sufficient quantities.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Retail outfits will only sell your goods as a unknown company on a sell and return basis

They will want to know your stock levels

To make a brand you need to spend money on Marketing

Manufacturing you need volume to make clothing work, its no use just having a couple of sizes in stock

Sales cost money to have a professional site designed a gold logo does not mean quality

Why does your site show "Not in Stock" do you not have any professional photos of the items

At present retail womens fashion wear heve returns running at between 15 and 50% often returned with lipstick/ deodorant/ perfume on and they purchaser fully understands the laws pertaining to online selling

Zimmerman, Gucci, LV, and the like spend multi million £ on Marketing their goods, so get realistic from the start. you will have a long minimum of 5 years or so to become known as a brand if your willing to invest heavily into the company

Good Luck and keep a tight grip on Cashflow and expectations

 

[Porky]

@Chris Ashdown
Good grief between 15% and 50% returns, what a feral society we now live it that people think it acceptable to buy a dress wear it for a wedding/night out party etc and then return it - bloody disgusting.
Looks like that's another retail area crossed off the list - as if it isn't hard enough!

 

[fisicx]

@Chris Ashdown
Good grief between 15% and 50% returns, what a feral society we now live it that people think it acceptable to buy a dress wear it for a wedding/night out party etc and then return it - bloody disgusting.
Looks like that's another retail area crossed off the list - as if it isn't hard enough!

There was a time when someone would buy one of each colour and a variety of sizes, find the one they wanted then return the rest. This could be 20-30 items that all needed repacking. Online stores were making a loss so some introduced a returns fee.

A retailer is charging for a return – do I have to pay? - Which?

More stores are beginning to charge customers to make returns on online orders, but how does this affect your consumer rights?

www.which.co.uk