Shared Data

[TelesMedia]

Would you share data once a month anonymously to get the same overall industry stats back to help you make decisions about your own business.

For example - if you were a small business and you wanted to know how many others in your industry have to deal with Sick days - to compare how many sick days a month your staff have in comparison to others in your sector. Or new customers, new bookings and also you could drill down the information both nationally and for your county.

The data as a whole can then assist you in your own business especially business confidence - ie - Is Marketing Spend up/down for the sector

All data would be anonymous but for your industry.

 

[fisicx]

Not sure I’d want to share that sort of data with anyone. Nor am I sure it’s going to be that useful without context. Someone may have 20 sick days over the last 6 months. But unless you know why and how it affected the business it’s meaningless.

 

[NickGrogan]

It wouldn't be anonymous though would it? You'd know who submitted the data and would therefore be able to sell it to whoever might be interested.

The government has already published various bits of data on business confidence.

 

[UkAppCoder]

My answer to your excellent question would be yes, but of course, as suggested by previous posters, the data company must be trust-worthy.

To address NickGrogan's misgivings; sensitive data can be submitted to varying degrees. Forms, questionaires, surveys, etc. can be carefully designed so that subscribers feel reassured that their privacy would never be compromised, and that they really could remain anonymous whilst providing valuable data about their company which would contribute to the production of highly useful information for the benefit of all subscribers.

So, if data analysis companies are skilled enough to ensure that data specific to particular individuals, companies, etc. are not compromised, then, since a well organised relational database can be an absolute goldmine, it would be well worth it for individual companies to contribute what data they can in return for aggregated information about markets, etc.. Such companies with people who are good at asking questions relevant to their growth would benefit immensely.

There is much confusion and doubt amongst the general public, the media, business people, politicians, etc. about data handling. Much of the time this is due to unfair sensationalism by the media.

Personally, I can appreciate the power of data analysis to produce information that can drive correct business decisions. The theory and practice of relational databases is one of my strongest skills in computer science, and I am very handy with SQL.

Sounds like you're researching the possibility of starting some kind of data collection and dissemination company. I can imagine how such a company could be highly lucrative. Please feel free to contact me at any time. We might be able to have a useful chat about this.

 

[NickGrogan]

can be carefully designed so that subscribers feel reassured that their privacy would never be compromised

Interesting choice of words. Subscribers can "feel" reassured, but that doesn't mean they should.

There are plenty of ways for someone running the server to track who is completing the forms and tie the information back to specific companies or individuals, without them knowing.

 

[DontAsk]

People have shown repeatedly how easy it is to de-anonymise data by comparing to other easily available data sets.

 

[UkAppCoder]

Interesting choice of words. Subscribers can "feel" reassured, but that doesn't mean they should.

There are plenty of ways for someone running the server to track who is completing the forms and tie the information back to specific companies or individuals, without them knowing.

You're absolutely right, Nick. But don't you think people would soon find out? A data company's reputation wouldn't last ten minutes if they did this sort of thing. Also, the police would soon be involved. Fines? Jail?

I wouldn't blame anyone for being cautious. The company would have to do its utmost to ensure that the integrity of its systems are sound by, for example, providing explanations of:

* The data required from the subscriber, and how the subscriber would benefit.

* The difference between non-mandatory input data which could identify companies, individuals, etc., and required input data which needs to be accurate in order to produce high quality information for everyone subscribing to the service. The requirements for certain inputs would have to be minimised whilst at the same time obtaining enough input to provide a quality service.

* The differences between aggregated information and specific information.

This is all just off the top of my head, and lots more would be required, but at the end of the day, the vast majority of business throughout the world is done on a handshake. If you don't trust a company, then don't use it!

 

[UkAppCoder]

By the way, Nick and DontAsk, the kind of input you are contributing to this discussion is actually very useful, if not indispensable, for a data company startup. All such doubts, skeptical views, etc. should be welcome in a discussion like this.

Also, just so you know, I already have such a database which I designed, implemented and tested years ago. It is capable of providing highly useful information for companies, and absolutely no personal or company-specific input data is necessary, although a subscriber may submit such input if they so choose.

And here's another reassurance for potential subscribers: data in a database can be encrypted with exactly same cryptographic algorithms as those used for online credit card payments. This means that any sensitive data can be stored in a database as securely as anything; for example, passwords.

Also, please bear in mind that the software developers who do this kind of work are absolutely passionate about what they do. 99.99...% of them are just not interested in criminal or deceitful hacking - they just love creating and developing software!

 

[fisicx]

In the opening post the number of sick days was touted as the sort of information that would be shared. This number in isolation means nothing without context. You know nothing about the reasons for the sick day, the demographic of the workforce, the local conditions and so on.

How is knowing bloggs and co at the other end of the country has an average of 10 sick days per year useful in isolation? You would need to know a lot more about the workforce to perform any sort of analysis. And compiling this sort of data is time consuming which means I’d expect free access to the reports. Which means nobody pays.

 

[Ozzy]

When o read the OP I saw they used sick days but I took that as their example, but for my I though lead to conversion KPI, Gross Profit, EBITDA, salary % v T/O and plenty of other business performance metric.
So then thinking what I would find interesting to measure my own business performance metrics, yes I would find such a service useful and would participate. I already obtain data from various sources like Companies House and others and that data is input into my monthly MI produces for me and my board, and having more performance data could be more accurate and tangible.

 

[fisicx]

@Ozzy I agree that performance data can be useful but I’m not so sure that’s what @TelesMedia was suggesting. They also mentioned new customers/bookings and I’m really not sure I’d be willing to share that sort of information. And even then how useful would it be? I got one new customer this month. Bob down the road got 10. But mine was worth £5000, Bob earned a total of £1000.

Data needs to be contextual to be useful.

 

[Ozzy]

It does, and anyone who uses data without contextualising it is doing it wrong. That’s the fault of the customer and not the supplier.
As a school governor we do this all the time. We take comparative data from the DfE alongside LA data and also cluster data, and cross reference that against our own pupil and financial performance. We contextualise it to our cohort and weight the cluster data over the DfE as my locally relevant.

It’s not the fault of the DfE that their data isn’t as relevant when comparing our full range SEND school data to a comparable sized mainstream school. It’s down to us to take what is relevant from each piece of data and use it properly.

 

[UkAppCoder]

These are really excellent questions, fisicx - so useful for a data startup; and Ozzy's explanation and examples of how data services can be used for the benefit of individual companies is indispensable for people like me.

I'm not a business analyst or business development expert. Problems involving how to increase profits and such like is for you guys to figure out. Once you have your questions and queries, then you can bring them to us and we will translate them into machine language which will give you answers. We can also advise on how to best format your questions so that you don't receive answers such as 42!

Taking the OP's example regarding sickies, a manager might begin an analysis as follows:

Ozzy's question to accountant: "How much money are we losing because of all these damned sickies?"

Accountant: "Too much it would seem, boss."

Ozzy's question to data administrator: "Are our employees taking too many sickies compared with other companies?"

Data administrator's question to database administrator: "The old man upstairs is behind on the yacht payments. He wants to know whether we're employing a bunch of hypochondriacs here or what?"

Database administrator's first question to the SQL programmer working down in the coal cellar:

"Find the average number of sick days taken by businesses in <AREA> where the reason given was <REASON> and the employee age is between 18 and 30"

Converting this plain English question into SQL is a trivial matter.

Ozzy has the right idea and understands how useful a company's data can be for itself and also for the collective. I guess this is an example of collaboration between companies so that any particular individual company might become more competetive.

Regarding monetisation, fisicx; I'm just a software developer with a geeky interest in relational databases. Of course I would be able to come up with some ideas for monetising data services, but again, I think business people like you would much better at this sort of thing. This is where people like us would need help from people in a place like UKBF.

 

[fisicx]

"Find the average number of sick days taken by businesses in <AREA> where the reason given was <REASON> and the employee age is between 18 and 30"

And getting that data is where is all becomes a struggle. Small businesses aren't going to give this away just because someone asks for it. Suppose someone came to you out of the blue and asked you to fill in this long online form with all sort of probing question about your business and up to 250 employees (defines an SMB) with no clear incentive to do so. I'd ask them to pay me for my time as it could take hours to gather all the information.

 

[Ozzy]

"Find the average number of sick days taken by businesses in <AREA> where the reason given was <REASON> and the employee age is between 18 and 30"

I think contextual data as part of the "service" is not going to work, and sick days is one such example of where this service wouldn't work because....

And getting that data is where is all becomes a struggle. Small businesses aren't going to give this away just because someone asks for it.

^^^^ of this reason.

Expanding on the OP's question, sick days is not a great example to use to model the concept as ur simply won't work because the variation data will be too much. Too much explanation needed for each data point, which is why for me I'd be more focused on primary KPI data especially as it can be autonomous for organisations to engage with.

 

[NickGrogan]

ou're absolutely right, Nick. But don't you think people would soon find out? A data company's reputation wouldn't last ten minutes if they did this sort of thing. Also, the police would soon be involved. Fines? Jail?

remind me, how many Facebook staff have gone to jail?

Taking the OP's example regarding sickies, a manager might begin an analysis as follows:

To a hammer, everything is a nail.

To someone selling a database, everything is a data problem.

Ozzy might moan to his accountant, but his next port of call for anything staff-related will probably be HR, who will come up with their own answers and probably not think of asking the data manager.

NOSQL databases like MongoDB are probably more suited to this kind of application where, if you get the data, it's likely to be much for a free form format.

So they'd be converting the questions to JSON.

 

[TelesMedia]

My answer to your excellent question would be yes, but of course, as suggested by previous posters, the data company must be trust-worthy.

To address NickGrogan's misgivings; sensitive data can be submitted to varying degrees. Forms, questionaires, surveys, etc. can be carefully designed so that subscribers feel reassured that their privacy would never be compromised, and that they really could remain anonymous whilst providing valuable data about their company which would contribute to the production of highly useful information for the benefit of all subscribers.

So, if data analysis companies are skilled enough to ensure that data specific to particular individuals, companies, etc. are not compromised, then, since a well organised relational database can be an absolute goldmine, it would be well worth it for individual companies to contribute what data they can in return for aggregated information about markets, etc.. Such companies with people who are good at asking questions relevant to their growth would benefit immensely.

There is much confusion and doubt amongst the general public, the media, business people, politicians, etc. about data handling. Much of the time this is due to unfair sensationalism by the media.

Personally, I can appreciate the power of data analysis to produce information that can drive correct business decisions. The theory and practice of relational databases is one of my strongest skills in computer science, and I am very handy with SQL.

Sounds like you're researching the possibility of starting some kind of data collection and dissemination company. I can imagine how such a company could be highly lucrative. Please feel free to contact me at any time. We might be able to have a useful chat about this.

HI Ozzy,

I am glad you see the positive side of this. As a business owner, especially in uncertain and changing times it would be really beneficial to know what other SMEs or same sector businesses are doing or seeing. Are sales up in the sector = business confidence.

I can see the business and consumer confidence for the whole country but that may not be reflective for an industry. If others in your industry are stagnating then you can make an informed decision to wait before increasing marketing spend. The dynamics and depth of shared data are endless.

I shall PM you also.

 

[UkAppCoder]

Some fascinating insights.

I haven't really had much time to think about it yet, but I think I get the gist.

I will read the following article:

KPIs: What Are Key Performance Indicators? Types and Examples

Key performance indicators (KPIs) are defined metrics that allow a company’s management to compare performance against a set of targets, objectives, or industry peers.

www.investopedia.com

... and I will also think more about the meaning of "contextualisation". At the moment it sounds like queries for KPIs would have to be quite contextualised, no?

Just to be clear, the query for average sick days would not involve any personal or sensitive data, and <AREA> would of course be arbitrary according to what subscribers would be comfortable with - i.e. town/city, county, country, etc., not street/city, postcode, etc.. As I suggested in an earlier post, subscribers would have to be comfortable with the level of data sensitivity. Queries would return mainly 'aggregated' information.

 

[TelesMedia]

You're absolutely right, Nick. But don't you think people would soon find out? A data company's reputation wouldn't last ten minutes if they did this sort of thing. Also, the police would soon be involved. Fines? Jail?

I wouldn't blame anyone for being cautious. The company would have to do its utmost to ensure that the integrity of its systems are sound by, for example, providing explanations of:

* The data required from the subscriber, and how the subscriber would benefit.

* The difference between non-mandatory input data which could identify companies, individuals, etc., and required input data which needs to be accurate in order to produce high quality information for everyone subscribing to the service. The requirements for certain inputs would have to be minimised whilst at the same time obtaining enough input to provide a quality service.

* The differences between aggregated information and specific information.

This is all just off the top of my head, and lots more would be required, but at the end of the day, the vast majority of business throughout the world is done on a handshake. If you don't trust a company, then don't use it!

Agreed - there is leverage to keeping information safe by way of repeat business.

No data would be sold on as we want the sectors and clients to grow.

 

[TelesMedia]

In the opening post the number of sick days was touted as the sort of information that would be shared. This number in isolation means nothing without context. You know nothing about the reasons for the sick day, the demographic of the workforce, the local conditions and so on.

How is knowing bloggs and co at the other end of the country has an average of 10 sick days per year useful in isolation? You would need to know a lot more about the workforce to perform any sort of analysis. And compiling this sort of data is time consuming which means I’d expect free access to the reports. Which means nobody pays.

This was just an example - as i saw another post with someones pain point being people keep being off sick/covid at his restaurant. Wouldnt it be nice if that person could drill down to see the average sick days for all restaurants and he can then see if their sick days are worse and if they are being too soft on staff and therefore result in increased working days and profit.

 

[TelesMedia]

When o read the OP I saw they used sick days but I took that as their example, but for my I though lead to conversion KPI, Gross Profit, EBITDA, salary % v T/O and plenty of other business performance metric.
So then thinking what I would find interesting to measure my own business performance metrics, yes I would find such a service useful and would participate. I already obtain data from various sources like Companies House and others and that data is input into my monthly MI produces for me and my board, and having more performance data could be more accurate and tangible.

Thanks Ozzy.

You are spot on - the sick days were an example but those participating in sharing the data would be able to suggest KPIs as well as the sector will know themselves exactly which information is the most beneficial.

 

[TelesMedia]

It does, and anyone who uses data without contextualising it is doing it wrong. That’s the fault of the customer and not the supplier.
As a school governor we do this all the time. We take comparative data from the DfE alongside LA data and also cluster data, and cross reference that against our own pupil and financial performance. We contextualise it to our cohort and weight the cluster data over the DfE as my locally relevant.

It’s not the fault of the DfE that their data isn’t as relevant when comparing our full range SEND school data to a comparable sized mainstream school. It’s down to us to take what is relevant from each piece of data and use it properly.

Ozzy,

Thats strange you mention being a school governor as i work with private schools and was one of the sectors i was thinking of targeting as they love sharing data and value based information amongst each other.

 

[TelesMedia]

These are really excellent questions, fisicx - so useful for a data startup; and Ozzy's explanation and examples of how data services can be used for the benefit of individual companies is indispensable for people like me.

I'm not a business analyst or business development expert. Problems involving how to increase profits and such like is for you guys to figure out. Once you have your questions and queries, then you can bring them to us and we will translate them into machine language which will give you answers. We can also advise on how to best format your questions so that you don't receive answers such as 42!

Taking the OP's example regarding sickies, a manager might begin an analysis as follows:

Ozzy's question to accountant: "How much money are we losing because of all these damned sickies?"

Accountant: "Too much it would seem, boss."

Ozzy's question to data administrator: "Are our employees taking too many sickies compared with other companies?"

Data administrator's question to database administrator: "The old man upstairs is behind on the yacht payments. He wants to know whether we're employing a bunch of hypochondriacs here or what?"

Database administrator's first question to the SQL programmer working down in the coal cellar:

"Find the average number of sick days taken by businesses in <AREA> where the reason given was <REASON> and the employee age is between 18 and 30"

Converting this plain English question into SQL is a trivial matter.

Ozzy has the right idea and understands how useful a company's data can be for itself and also for the collective. I guess this is an example of collaboration between companies so that any particular individual company might become more competetive.

Regarding monetisation, fisicx; I'm just a software developer with a geeky interest in relational databases. Of course I would be able to come up with some ideas for monetising data services, but again, I think business people like you would much better at this sort of thing. This is where people like us would need help from people in a place like UKBF.

Absolutely spot on !!!!!!

 

[TelesMedia]

And getting that data is where is all becomes a struggle. Small businesses aren't going to give this away just because someone asks for it. Suppose someone came to you out of the blue and asked you to fill in this long online form with all sort of probing question about your business and up to 250 employees (defines an SMB) with no clear incentive to do so. I'd ask them to pay me for my time as it could take hours to gather all the information.

The incentive for you to do so is to also receive the information. If you do not share your monthly data you dont get to see how everyone else is doing. The information could be so beneficial that just one months increase in turnover for your sector could lead you to a decision to go big on marketing before everyone else does resulting in capturing the market early. Or a downturn resulting in you reducing costs.

 

[NickGrogan]

The information could be so beneficial that just one months increase in turnover for your sector could lead you to a decision to go big on marketing before everyone else does resulting in capturing the market early. Or a downturn resulting in you reducing costs.

Data, data, everywhere. But no knowledge.

If the average turnover in my sector is increasing, then it's probably because my competitors have increased marketing before, so by doing it now, I'm just chasing them. Same with a downturn.

What data analysis did you two do to decide that now was a good time to launch a data service and this was the right forum to use?

Useful data is data that's not shared.

I want to know what other people don't know, not what everyone knows.

 

[TelesMedia]

Nick,
If you're not interested in shared data but rather know what people do not know - why would you comment on the post?

 

[NickGrogan]

Nick,
If you're not interested in shared data but rather know what people do not know - why would you comment on the post?

To highlight potential issues, misinformation, problems or scams to anyone that might be browsing.

 

[TelesMedia]

To highlight potential issues, misinformation, problems or scams to anyone that might be browsing.

But you have no evidence whatsoever of any "potential" misinformation or scams? Why would you presume misinformation or scams based on an idea/forum conversation??

Surely you must be commenting on many many posts where you think there must be some sort of wrongdoing !! crazy

 

[NickGrogan]

I've already highlighted actual misinformation in these posts.

I don't comment on that many posts, there are plenty of people here highlighting other issues.

 

[TelesMedia]

ok

 

[fisicx]

If you do not share your monthly data you dont get to see how everyone else is doing.

Unless they do what I would do and lie.

As has already been pointed out, you can get accounts and other company data. You can see how well your competitors are doing. The juicy information (marketing campaigns for example) is going to be kept secret. Other than sick days, what sort of information are you hoping to collect?

 

[UkAppCoder]

fisicx wrote:

Unless they do what I would do and lie.

Yes, I thought about this and how it could be mitigated. But why would you want to do that?

fisicx wrote:

As has already been pointed out, you can get accounts and other company data.

But these data are disparate and unrelated. They are not organised into a relational database which is so much more powerful in terms of the information they can produce.

fisicx wrote:

The juicy information (marketing campaigns for example) is going to be kept secret.

Over the years I've lost count of the number times that companies have handed over their server details in order for me to work on their systems. File systems, intellectual property, entire databases some of which include passwords in plain text - i.e. totally unencrypted!

Which means, incidentally, to answer another of your concerns, that you wouldn't have to do a thing if you gave the data company access to your database schema and documentation.

 

[NickGrogan]

Over the years I've lost count of the number times that companies have handed over their server details in order for me to work on their systems.

Yes, to work on their systems, not to make a copy of the information and share it with competitors.

Or is this how you planning on getting access?

 

[UkAppCoder]

Yes, to work on their systems, not to make a copy of the information and share it with competitors.

Or is this how you planning on getting access?

Nick. I've ignored you up to now because I could see that you're the argumentative type, and that you seem to be looking for a fight. I have no idea why, and I really don't know how to answer your stupid remarks above.

Also, I assume by your earlier remark:

"I've already highlighted actual misinformation in these posts."

... that you're referring to something that I have said somewhere in this discussion. I also assume that you've been spreading some poison to TelesMedia about me because of his "ok" reply to your comment.

Nick, could you please point out where I have misinformed anyone in this discussion?

Now, I've already said that many clients have given me access to their systems over the years, AND they've given access to their databases. Therefore, I suggest you inform the police immediately because this should be more than enough evidence for you to bring charges against me!

Unless you have any evidence to back up your wicked accusations, then I recommend you desist from making such accusations against people before you make an even bigger pratt out of yourself than you already have.

I think there is something wrong with you, Nick.

Message to the moderators. I would be most grateful if you do not remove any of the offending posts. I would like NickGrogan's silly remarks to remain on record.

 

[fisicx]

Yes, I thought about this and how it could be mitigated. But why would you want to do that?

To mislead my competitors.

But these data are disparate and unrelated. They are not organised into a relational database which is so much more powerful in terms of the information they can produce.

There are already services that have done all this for you. If the information is in the public domain then you can do what you like with is.

But @TelesMedia wants small businesses to complete a return each month. Which is where is all falls down. Denise who runs a small business making hats or Terry who is a local builder isn't going to take part. Nigel who runs a niche software company with no real competitors might not see any value. The nearest estate agents if probably way too busy to do this.

They would need to see examples of the data and how they can benefit. Which means @TelesMedia may need to pay to get a corpus of data whchi they can then market.

 

[UkAppCoder]

Hi @fisicx. Thank you for your responses. Again, most helpful, but I think I've had a gut-full of this thread for one day.

 

[NickGrogan]

"I've already highlighted actual misinformation in these posts."

... that you're referring to something that I have said somewhere in this discussion. I also assume that you've been spreading some poison to TelesMedia about me because of his "ok" reply to your comment.

Nick, could you please point out where I have misinformed anyone in this discussion?

It wouldn't be anonymous though would it? You'd know who submitted the data and would therefore be able to sell it to whoever might be interested.

The government has already published various bits of data on business confidence.

People have shown repeatedly how easy it is to de-anonymise data by comparing to other easily available data sets.

I said that there was mis-information in these posts, not who said what.

You can make whatever assumptions you want, but they are your assumptions, not mine.

Why would I want to "spread" poison to @TelesMedia about you?

For all I know you could be the same person

 

[UkAppCoder]

UkAppCoder wrote:

Over the years I've lost count of the number times that companies have handed over their server details in order for me to work on their systems.

NickGrogan answered:

Yes, to work on their systems, not to make a copy of the information and share it with competitors.

Or is this how you planning on getting access?

So what the hell is all this shice about?

You're just a trouble-maker, Nick.

I'm taking no further part in this nonsense.

 

[Ozzy]

I have an afternoon of meetings and this thread went way off course

Wouldnt it be nice if that person could drill down to see the average sick days for all restaurants and he can then see if their sick days are worse

I really don't see a value in this sort of thing for HR issues like sick days, only KPI related data. HR issues there are plenty of HR monitoring products in the market for different industries so I would urge you to not go down the sick days rabbit hole.

Thats strange you mention being a school governor as i work with private schools and was one of the sectors i was thinking of targeting as they love sharing data and value based information amongst each other.

They do, there are a lot of products on the market that collate this information that presents it in differing levels of reporting for different audiences - from staff to governors. On data reporting methods this would be a good area for market research even if you didn't serve the education sector.

Useful data is data that's not shared.

I disagree. Pretty much every industry body I can think of collates data from their members to share with their members on the state of their sectors, I don't see this concept in this thread as any different.
A golf buddy of mine is in your industry and he talks about data sharing in your sector.

The juicy information (marketing campaigns for example) is going to be kept secret.

I've seen this information being shared in industry bodies, the most recent in the logistics sector I attended an event for a few weeks ago.

But these data are disparate and unrelated. They are not organised into a relational database which is so much more powerful in terms of the information they can produce.

Before you go down that rabbit hole, that is a saturated market with so many major players who provide services that collate the data from Companies House and organise and consolidate with other data sources. A very good friend of mine is a player in that sector himself.

 

[fisicx]

I've seen this information being shared in industry bodies, the most recent in the logistics sector I attended an event for a few weeks ago.

Are you really going to share the keywords that get you the best leads or the advertising campaign that makes the most money? Telling your competitors how to beat you at your own game isn't good business. @TelesMedia said:

Or new customers, new bookings and also you could drill down the information both nationally and for your county.

Sharing that could be giving away a lot of business.

When I started doing SEO people still thought the keyword metatag had value. You were advised to look at your competitors sites to see what keywords they were targeting. Someone told me to fill my keywords meta with misleading junk to send my competitors chasing a red herring. Misdirection is a wonderful marketing tool.