SEO. Can you trust anyone?

[PD Services]

SEO is a very grey area in my opinion. You pay upfront, but nothing happens for 6 to 8 weeks and there are no guarantees, or are there? Can anyone clear this up?

It just doesn't seem right to me, i like to at least see some results before i part with money!

 

[Alan]

Its not so much a grey area, but one where you have to ensure you are buying from a reputable supplier.

I guess there are other job you have to take on trust, if I pay someone to clean my gutters out, how doI know that the job had been done until the next big down pour? Thats why I'd never get the job done by someone that just knocked on my door and said 'gutters clean mate?'

With SEO it is even trickier, because there are no guarantees, in fact if some one offers a guarantee they are not being honest, because something that works today may not work tomorrow.

It is also a competition, not every one can be number one.

Maybe a better analogy is a Football manager, you can hire a manager with the aim to get to the top of the league, you have to pay him wages up front, but have to wait a year for the results. And when you don't because two teams can't win, you sack him, but you have wasted a year and you don't get your money back.

 

[Gregory007]

SEO is a commitment - so by definition is long term. Why SEO - simply because in the long term it's better value for money. however like paid advertising - it's has to be a ongoing commitment to get any real value from it.

seeing results is relative, depends on what you mean by results. If getting to page 1 in a competitive market is what you are referring to then expect to pay a lot of money for that especially if you are a new site. The success of any SEO campaign depends on your competition and ultimately the search engines

hopefully somewhere in there answers your question. If you are not sure what you are paying for then ask your consultant.

 

[LowPrices.uk]

SEO is a very grey area in my opinion. You pay upfront, but nothing happens for 6 to 8 weeks and there are no guarantees, or are there? Can anyone clear this up?

It just doesn't seem right to me, i like to at least see some results before i part with money!

I think it's fair enough to have reservations, as the "SEO" business service has a lot of snake oil salesmen promising the Earth and delivering little. It's very hard to find the genuinely good people.

If you don't want to pay for nothing, see if you can find someone who is prepared to be paid on results, e.g. they will get you to position x for a given keyphrase, and then you have to pay them per month this result remains. If you can't find anyone to agree to this type of payment, that tells you something.

 

[Ian J]

Its not so much a grey area, but one where you have to ensure you are buying from a reputable supplier.

Determining the "reputable supplier" is the problem as everyone will claim to be reputable but that doesn't mean that they are any good.

There are quite a few SEO merchants posting regularly on this website but very few are actually helpful in their responses to posts with most posting the type of "pick me" type answers whether overtly or covertly.

Having followed the threads for a number of years I picked one of the more helpful and seemingly knowledgeable of firms to act for me and in twelve months he had moved my site up from the middle of page 4 to the middle of page 4 so after paying him for a year the relationship was terminated

I then moved to another well regarded SEO guru but that relationship only lasted one month as this person had problems adhering to any sort of timetable and didn't actually do anything.

I despaired of ever finding anyone on this forum that could walk the walk as well as talking the talk but after a few months someone poked their head above the parapet by answering questions on SEO from forum members without the slightest hint of "pick me" so I'm now on my third SEO'er from UK Business Forums and if there is any degree of success I will let you all know who it is with a glowing recommendation

 

[Gregory007]

It is very easy to determine a reputable supplier.
1. they will not guarantee page 1 or position 2 etc results.
2. they will be transparent - so they will tell you what is what - this will only happen if they carry out a full audit of your web properties
3. They will educate and inform you - reporting, analysis etc
4. The client is realistic - client understands their industry and competition

Let me make this clear - SEO is a long term startegy - I'm sorry but no SEO worth is salt will ever commit to a pay by results unless he is desperate. Can you imagine a football manager getting paid on results? yes some might do this but they are are generally very very desperate.

SEO is you choice. you must be clear what your objective is - getting to number X is not going to make you more sales on it own, so be clear on what your goals are and what is expected.

Don't be afraid to talk to your consultant

 

[Alan]

If you don't want to pay for nothing, see if you can find someone who is prepared to be paid on results, e.g. they will get you to position x for a given keyphrase, and then you have to pay them per month this result remains.

Probably exactly the way to find a snake oil salesman, it is possible but very rare, that a company is big enough that it is prepared to risk revenue in this way. Don't forget that SEO takes many hours of work, from very technical (worth over £75 per hour ) to very labour intensive(i.e. many hours at less money). Only big companies can genuinely risk cost versus revenue, but the big companies don't need to take such risks to win your business as if they are any good they they have reputation and repeat business from existing clients.

So that leaves you with small operators, one man bands and micro firms. If you are a one man band, if you are good enough to guarantee results, then why would they work to make you rich, they would works to make themselves good. There was a young lad on her a year or so back, who was transparent on his income - he was earning £100k p.a. from his own SEO work on his affiliate sites, he also did 'consulting' - which means by the hour.

So that leaves you with the SEO's that are not very good and desperate for business, who will offer guarantees. And they are the snake oil salesmen.

A long while back, when we offered SEO for third parties, someone from UKBF contacted me and actually got a bit angry when I explained that I would never offer guarantees, he basically said 'tough luck' there are lots of firms that do - so he went off (no idea of the outcome), but I did do some research on it.

I spoke to a firm that guarantees (a medium size offshore operation) and the boss told me that they way they can offer guarantees is
1. never let the client pick the key words - if they do, explain to them why those key words wont convert and if you cant persuade them to use 'your' keywords, walk away
2. charge a an initial (non refundable) fee, the set up fee covers the actual work, do the work, if it works then you start getting a 'bonus' which you can then use to fund work into the account
3. have a water tight contract that ensures the clients has no come backs

There are also many blogs out there that explain who unscupulous firms guarantees position 1 including,incredibly, making sure the contract is about ANY type result on Google SERPs, and then they simply put up Adwords with enough budget for one click a month. And then they can provide screen shots of you in position 1 (until you get a click) once a month, tied into a 12 month contract. Whether that is a true trick or not I don't know.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Many SEO experts seem to lack the understanding of what a company does and sells, it can be quite simple to SEO the basics and also play with the descriptions etc but What good is Great SEO getting to number one position but nobody buys your goods

The number of people over the years who talk the talk but when asked how would you present this product differently they have absolutely no idea of the product or who its marketed to

Another problem is only a few people look past the paid for places and even fewer look past page one for information

 

[Ian J]

SEO is you choice. you must be clear what your objective is - getting to number X is not going to make you more sales on it own, so be clear on what your goals are and what is expected.

I think that you mean that "getting to number X may not make you more sales on it own"

 

[Bill1954]

The last 2 companies we used actually made our results go DOWN in the serps.
This is why I subcribed to Tin's excellent SEO course. Up to now, due to eye problems I've only been through half of it, but even with that knowledge I've been able to better the rankings on some products.

 

[Gregory007]

I think that you mean that "getting to number X may not make you more sales on it own"

Yep that is what i mean't..typing very quickly while I munch over my breakfast

 

[RLlewellyn]

SEO is pretty black and white actually, in terms of the actual practitioners. Either they know what they're doing or they don't, you'll either get some Joe Bloggs still using GSA-SER to build back-links to your main website because he saw it mentioned on Matthew Woodward before, or you'll get somebody actually worth their merits.

Consultants are usually the best people to speak too, having knowledge of the industry and the good practitioners in it is a priceless card to hold. Don't rush into it and don't pay for anyone who is "cold" - regardless of how amazing their online reviews are. What people forget is you can nip onto Fiverr and get however many 5* reviews you want on whatever outlet, be it Google, directories or social media.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

How do you define a Consultant? and why should you trust them anymore than anyone else

 

[RLlewellyn]

How do you define a Consultant? and why should you trust them anymore than anyone else

By consultant I'm referring to business consultants by the way, not SEO consultant. In reality, you can't trust anyone, but I'd trust a consultant with industry experience and good business and professional links than some random.

Not really sure what you're getting at.

 

[boring-friday]

So much nonsense in this thread as usual with any SEO threads. I wasted loads of money at the start and then learned the basics myself, now I can easily pick people to do it for me or I mostly hire my own virtual assistants and tell them what to do.
It isn't 'technical' in the slightest, its very simple. Onsite is just writing decent content,good meta descriptions. I mostly thing of this as conversions and click through rate rather than a direct seo impact personally.
Then its just links, on site and offsite. Various ways of getting them whether you suck someone off for one,pay them or you make it yourself, really makes no difference.

You should ask to see their website ranks, I've never known a successful seo seller not to have atleast a few of their own websites making money too. If its just local seo then you should try and find someone who will get paid on results. Obviously nobody can guarantee they'll rank you but they can be 99% sure

 

[Alan]

There are technical aspects of SEO, they may not be as important as content and authority but they play a part. See https://support.google.com/webmasters/answer/35769?hl=en#technical_guidelines

 

[IanG]

Lets be honest, the entire phenomenon of SEO is a bit of a wishy-wash stab in the dark to confuse search engines in to ranking things more highly than the search engines would otherwise decide to.

Only the fact that everyone else is doing it means you probably should. If there weren't a great many people employed in the industry whose sole career purpose is to fudge ranking algorithms then you too wouldn't also need to throw money at it in order to compete.

I've got auction listings which are well written and contain part numbers and never mind page one, I'm result number one in Google for a lot of them. Am I a "consultant"? Did it cost me £75pm? Of course not. Just good quality product descriptions in an appropriate marketplace.

I'm now on my third SEO'er from UK Business Forums and if there is any degree of success I will let you all know who it is with a glowing recommendation

Watching that one with interest Ian.

 

[Alan]

the entire phenomenon of SEO is a bit of a wishy-wash stab in the dark to confuse search engines

Well actually there are three classes of SEO

White hat - this is following the guidelines of the search engines to do what they recommend to give your site the best chance of 'correctly' being listed.

Grey Hat - this is where the rules of engagement are bent, to trick search engines into elevating your listings, but using lower risk techniques that have a low probability of getting a site ban. Like obtaining links by unnatural processes, but such that they look natural.

Black Hat - this is using techniques specifically 'banned' by search engines (mass comment spam link building, creating viral hidden links on software widgets etc), or loop holes that the search engines don't yet know about but would ban as soon as they can (e.g. PBNs)

None of it is wishy washy, even grey & black hat is a war or battle between the search engines and the people wanting 'unfair' rankings. People want 'unfair ranking' for monetary gains so will invest to do so.

Am I a "consultant"? Did it cost me £75pm? Of course not. Just good quality product descriptions in an appropriate marketplace.

This indicates that you are 'White Hat' to me, which is fine, and the guidelines are published. Anyone can do it, given basic computer skills, moderate literary skills and some advanced web dev skills to for performance optimisation and code rationalisation.

Not every one has the time though, or inclination, and the nature of business is to pay others for your own growth. If you can earn £150pm from the time you spent on SEO that (in your example) cost £75pm, why would you NOT pay an SEO consultant?

 

[RLlewellyn]

It isn't 'technical' in the slightest, its very simple. Onsite is just writing decent content,good meta descriptions. I mostly thing of this as conversions and click through rate rather than a direct seo impact personally.

That's cute.

Lets be honest, the entire phenomenon of SEO is a bit of a wishy-wash stab in the dark to confuse search engines in to ranking things more highly than the search engines would otherwise decide to.

Only the fact that everyone else is doing it means you probably should. If there weren't a great many people employed in the industry whose sole career purpose is to fudge ranking algorithms then you too wouldn't also need to throw money at it in order to compete.

I've got auction listings which are well written and contain part numbers and never mind page one, I'm result number one in Google for a lot of them. Am I a "consultant"? Did it cost me £75pm? Of course not. Just good quality product descriptions in an appropriate marketplace.

If rats had wings they'd be birds.

Auctions have nothing to do with SEO, they are literally the complete opposite of what SEO is, polar opposite.

Everyone else is doing it because it's relevant, SEO isn't some made up thing that "tech" people do to confuse you. Do you need SEO if you're trying to rank locally in a non-competitive industry? No, you can scratch the surface of SEO by learning how to write and structure content properly, how to build links and how to properly structure your website, disavow backlinks and generally keep Google happy that your website is relevant.

You'll find the majority of business owners don't outsource it because they don't know how, they do it because it takes a **** load of time for somebody who isn't experienced. Even a simple SEO project, e.g. skip hire Cardiff is going to take you around 8 hours per month to get headway with, and that's from somebody who's been doing it for years.

You should ask to see their website ranks, I've never known a successful seo seller not to have atleast a few of their own websites making money too. If its just local seo then you should try and find someone who will get paid on results. Obviously nobody can guarantee they'll rank you but they can be 99% sure

"Who will get paid on results" - that's a ****ing joke. I'll tell you what, I'm just gonna nip into Tesco, take a few pizza's and I'll come back and pay for them when they're cooked and I know I like them, how does that sound.

Why are people so delusional with SEO.

 

[Alan]

Why are people so delusional with SEO.

Unfortunately because to every genuine SEO 'consultants' there are 3 rip off artists. Thats just the way the industry developed.

 

[RLlewellyn]

Unfortunately because to every genuine SEO 'consultants' there are 3 rip off artists. Thats just the way the industry developed.

Absolutely agree - that's the problem, but is that not the same with almost every industry?

You get cowboys in every trade, "personal trainers" and "nutritionists" are just a few that pop to mind off the top of my head. The main problem is the stigma with either the older generation or people who aren't technologically aware that the internet can be manipulated. The difference is, anyone worth their salt will give you a price, if you try and drive them down or question them, they're likely to just brush you off and never contact you again.

Pay peanuts, get monkeys. Simple as that really.

 

[ricky776]

What's hard for us none Seo people

Is you ring one company and they say they do this

Ring another they do that

No one seems to know what there doing its like any one with a computer can be an Seo and I thought Google never told you what you can do or not do but then again don't they change the rules for example didn't they say directory submission was ok at one point

 

[Bill1954]

Google change the rules all the time. When we started back in 2007, a link was a link and you were encouraged to go out and get them. As for the paid on results thingy. No, Tesco wouldn't let you do that, in fact that is a stupid example, but, if I employ a tradesman to perform a job for me, he will get paid when the job is completed to MY satisfaction, not his. Why shouldn't SEO "gurus" who profess to be all knowing work under the same arrangement ? If they are as good as they are self confident, they have nothing to worry about.

 

[RLlewellyn]

Google change the rules all the time. When we started back in 2007, a link was a link and you were encouraged to go out and get them. As for the paid on results thingy. No, Tesco wouldn't let you do that, in fact that is a stupid example, but, if I employ a tradesman to perform a job for me, he will get paid when the job is completed to MY satisfaction, not his. Why shouldn't SEO "gurus" who profess to be all knowing work under the same arrangement ? If they are as good as they are self confident, they have nothing to worry about.

How is my example any different to yours other than the industry operated in? It's literally exactly the same moral outcome, you're not paying until you're satisfied with what you're going to pay for.

Tradesman get things done in a day to a week, tops. With any good tradesmen you'll be paying a deposit, specifically if it's for a big job. I'm not talking about "SEO Guru's" - the random cowboys who have read a few blogs, as you can quite clearly see I'm talking about actual, legitimate practitioners.

You're expecting them to take 100% of the risk purely for customer satisfaction? SEO can take anywhere from 2 weeks to 6 months for measurable progress to be seen (increase in sales, increase in leads through website). Good SEO's won't just change your content, write you some completely irrelevant metadata and build you a few links to 123mysuperdirectory.com - they'll optimise your site structure, write you a URL plan for growth, scalable to your business and if you get somebody particularly good, they may also perform basic UX (although that usually comes at a price).

So no, why should we wait around for potentially 6 months to get paid, I'm clearly fighting a losing battle with you here so we'll end this argument/debate as somebody had a legitimate question at the beginning, and we're starting to hijack the thread. If you'd like to take the debate to PM I'm more than fine to literally talk you through what I, and some of my associates do, why it's valuable and why we don't accept getting paid 6 months post-work.

Just to end, the example you gave is more like this. A roofer tiles your roof, you're happy with the job (we build links, write content, re-structure site, happy days) - by your definition, you don't pay them then, you pay them 6 months later when your tiles have stayed on and there have been no leaks. Is that realistic?

 

[Bill1954]

So you pay a so called SEO expert to carry out tasks and pay up front.
At the end of a month you get a report of the work carried out only to see a load of spammy links from unknown sites all over the world and some badly spun articles on dodgy sites. Rankings for the chosen keywords are plummeting. Did you get value for your money ? Do you have any chance of getting it back, unlike Tesco who will gladly exchange or refund the price of the pizzas that turned out to be of terrible quality ?
And is this getting away from the meaning of the OP's thread ? Don't think so.

 

[Ian J]

Just to end, the example you gave is more like this. A roofer tiles your roof, you're happy with the job (we build links, write content, re-structure site, happy days) - by your definition, you don't pay them then, you pay them 6 months later when your tiles have stayed on and there have been no leaks. Is that realistic?

The example of unrealistic behaviour that you quoted is actually pretty standard in the building industry. Not for the whole amount of the job but it is standard practice to withhold 10% of the contract amount for up to a year as a retention against possible problems

 

[RLlewellyn]

So you pay a so called SEO expert to carry out tasks and pay up front.
At the end of a month you get a report of the work carried out only to see a load of spammy links from unknown sites all over the world and some badly spun articles on dodgy sites. Rankings for the chosen keywords are plummeting. Did you get value for your money ? Do you have any chance of getting it back, unlike Tesco who will gladly exchange or refund the price of the pizzas that turned out to be of terrible quality ?
And is this getting away from the meaning of the OP's thread ? Don't think so.

God alive, you're going back to your definition of a SEO practitioner, again.

If your whole argument is based on focusing on the negatives and the BAD SEO practitioners, what chance do I have of even providing an adequate counter-argument?

You've quite clearly had a bad experience with somebody who was a charlatan, not a legitimate SEO practitioner, now you're completely tainted, it's pointless me even continuing.

The example of unrealistic behaviour that you quoted is actually pretty standard in the building industry. Not for the whole amount of the job but it is standard practice to withhold 10% of the contract amount for up to a year as a retention against possible problems

I disagree, massively. But each to their own I suppose.

 

[AllUpHere]

God alive, you're going back to your definition of a SEO practitioner, again.

If your whole argument is based on focusing on the negatives and the BAD SEO practitioners, what chance do I have of even providing an adequate counter-argument?

You've quite clearly had a bad experience with somebody who was a charlatan, not a legitimate SEO practitioner, now you're completely tainted, it's pointless me even continuing.



I disagree, massively. But each to their own I suppose.

Maybe you should define what you see as a legitimate practitioner. I notice in your profile that you list yourself as an SEO, then say you 'dabble in SEO'. Does that make you a legitimate practitioner?

 

[simon field]

@Ian J is in fact correct.

 

[RLlewellyn]

Maybe you should define what you see as a legitimate practitioner. I notice in your profile that you list yourself as an SEO, then say you 'dabble in SEO'. Does that make you a legitimate practitioner?

I know more than the majority of people do I suppose, wouldn't say I'm a "practitioner" purely because of time constraints. Seems like SEO is an extremely touchy subject around these parts.

 

[RLlewellyn]

@Ian J is in fact correct.

Like I said, each to their own. In my opinion and previous experience with tradesmen, guarantee's tend to cover this, any reputable builder will provide you with guarantee's for their work and materials. I had parquet flooring laid a year and a half ago, the guy who did it came around a month and bit ago to relay the corner part (wasn't even really his fault/materials) - but he gave us a 2 year guarantee and fulfilled it. I would never even consider keeping 10%.

 

[AllUpHere]

I know more than the majority of people do I suppose, wouldn't say I'm a "practitioner" purely because of time constraints. Seems like SEO is an extremely touchy subject around these parts.

I think you demonstrate perfectly the point people are making then. You list your services as SEO on your profile, but wouldn't describe yourself as a practitioner. You tell us you know more than most about SEO (which seems to be a fairly regular occurrence among SEO's), but why should we believe you over the other 1000's of people who also tell us they are experts. I'm not having a go at you specifically, but you must admit your posts and profile are pretty ironic.

 

[RLlewellyn]

I think you demonstrate perfectly the point people are making then. You list your services as SEO on your profile, but wouldn't describe yourself as a practitioner. You tell us you know more than most about SEO (which seems to be a fairly regular occurrence among SEO's), but why should we believe you over the other 1000's of people who also tell us they are experts. I'm not having a go at you specifically, but you must admit your posts and profile are pretty ironic.

I'm sorry, I didn't realise listing things I know about as touting for work and actively saying "I can do this"?

This is a forum, this isn't LinkedIn, this isn't me touting for work, this is me offering some advice when I can about things I have decent experience in, SEO being one of them. I'm not asking you to believe me, I couldn't care less if you or anyone else thinks I am Cutts himself or some random Joe Bloggs who's read Backlinko a few times.

"Status Message" is what I've listed those things under, if you're reading that much into it, the only "services" I've listed that I "do" is "Tend to dabble in SEO and copywriting occasionally too!". This is my gripe with forums and people who talk about things they know nothing about, they lose an argument then nit-pick and straw-grasp by checking profiles for loose hinges to try and rip off.

"I'm not having a go at you" - well you quite clearly are, crack on pal.

 

[AllUpHere]

I'm sorry, I didn't realise listing things I know about as touting for work and actively saying "I can do this"?

This is a forum, this isn't LinkedIn, this isn't me touting for work, this is me offering some advice when I can about things I have decent experience in, SEO being one of them. I'm not asking you to believe me, I couldn't care less if you or anyone else thinks I am Cutts himself or some random Joe Bloggs who's read Backlinko a few times.

"Status Message" is what I've listed those things under, if you're reading that much into it, the only "services" I've listed that I "do" is "Tend to dabble in SEO and copywriting occasionally too!". This is my gripe with forums and people who talk about things they know nothing about, they lose an argument then nit-pick and straw-grasp by checking profiles for loose hinges to try and rip off.

"I'm not having a go at you" - well you quite clearly are, crack on pal.

You've lost me now. I don't know how you think I lost an argument or needed to nit pick to clutch at straws. I simply stated that your posts on this forum lead to the kind of confusion that is being talked about in this thread. The whole point of the thread is that it's hard to find out who knows what they are doing.

When I looked at your profile and it said ''Consultant, SEO, Marketing Strategist & Business Process Strategist.'' I presumed you were speaking as an SEO. Obviously I was mistaken.

 

[RLlewellyn]

You've lost me now. I don't know how you think I lost an argument or needed to nit pick to clutch at straws. I simply stated that your posts on this forum lead to the kind of confusion that is being talked about in this thread. The whole point of the thread is that it's hard to find out who knows what they are doing.

When I looked at your profile and it said ''Consultant, SEO, Marketing Strategist & Business Process Strategist.'' I presumed you were speaking as an SEO. Obviously I was mistaken.

Fair enough, just don't appreciate when somebody makes out I'm "one of them". I have never claimed to be an SEO expert, nor do I state otherwise on my profile, I "dabble" with it sometimes because I enjoy it, oddly, I also dabble with content writing because again, I enjoy it. My main gig is Marketing and my side-gig is business strategy, "freelance" - don't really tout for work, just get approached by previous clients friends or business associates.

In reality, the only people who I qualify as experts are the ones you will only get hold of if you have contacts. Those people usually have between 5 and 10 dummy sites running and constantly experiment with quite a few variables per site. I know two people who do that, one is an extremely close friend and one I use for any SEO I take on because he knows exactly what works and what doesn't. When people say "SEO is just content and links, I can do that myself" it literally makes my blood boil, hence the rants.

Anyways, clearly got wires crossed, have a great day.

 

[AllUpHere]

Fair enough, just don't appreciate when somebody makes out I'm "one of them". I have never claimed to be an SEO expert, nor do I state otherwise on my profile, I "dabble" with it sometimes because I enjoy it, oddly, I also dabble with content writing because again, I enjoy it. My main gig is Marketing and my side-gig is business strategy, "freelance" - don't really tout for work, just get approached by previous clients friends or business associates.

In reality, the only people who I qualify as experts are the ones you will only get hold of if you have contacts. Those people usually have between 5 and 10 dummy sites running and constantly experiment with quite a few variables per site. I know two people who do that, one is an extremely close friend and one I use for any SEO I take on because he knows exactly what works and what doesn't. When people say "SEO is just content and links, I can do that myself" it literally makes my blood boil, hence the rants.

Anyways, clearly got wires crossed, have a great day.

My point is, I had no idea if you were 'one of them' or not (based on the info I had), which seems to be exactly the problem people are discussing on this thread. We are told to 'use a legitimate practitioner' but how on earth can we tell who is one, even if they are stood right in front of us?

I agree, all of the good SEO's I know wouldn't be actively seeking clients, they get more than enough work from people like me recommending their services to our clients. In fact, I'm often asked not to make recommendations for the best ones as they always have a waiting list anyway. Maybe that's the key, if you ask an SEO if they have time to work for you and they say yes, they are obviously a cowboy.

 

[RLlewellyn]

Without tarring everyone with the same brush (although that's pretty much exactly what I'm about to do) - any agency is likely to have no idea what they're doing. 90% of them will have young, inexperienced employee's doing all the dog work (the part that actually matters) whilst the bigger cats just manage accounts.

Freelance SEO consultants/experts are usually the ones who know what they're doing, hence doing it full time, freelance.

 

[AllUpHere]

Without tarring everyone with the same brush (although that's pretty much exactly what I'm about to do) - any agency is likely to have no idea what they're doing. 90% of them will have young, inexperienced employee's doing all the dog work (the part that actually matters) whilst the bigger cats just manage accounts.

Freelance SEO consultants/experts are usually the ones who know what they're doing, hence doing it full time, freelance.

I am certainly aware of many agencies who invest heavily in the staff who sell the services, but then employ monkeys to actually do the work.

 

[RLlewellyn]

I am certainly aware of many agencies who invest heavily in the staff who sell the services, but then employ monkeys to actually do the work.

Indeed, out of curiosity what kind of services do you do? Seems like we do kind of the same thing

 

[AllUpHere]

Indeed, out of curiosity what kind of services do you do? Seems like we do kind of the same thing

I don't want to derail the thread, but yes if you concentrate more on the underlying strategy behind marketing and business development, to make sure the 'promotional marketing' actually works better, we seem to be in similar roles.