SEO & Bull$hit

[Annoying Donkey]

The resource needed to create a business / website with true quality is much harder to do and requires much more resource. Thus the cost of SEO is getting pushed up, knocking out budget firms and those who rely on budget firms.

Not true. A good SEO using good techniques from 5 years ago can easily get a good ROI for a client. Yes, it costs more than the cheap SEO, but should always deliver much more than it costs (otherwise they're not good SEOs).

The OP and friends apparently placed their online marketing efforts in the hands of a company who was 'well regarded' on a forum, with no checks and balances... After all who cares, they're ranking aren't they? Then comes an algo change and that poor business decision is then blamed on the SEO industry as a whole...

OP and friends could easily have asked for a copy of the articles the SEO Co was using and they'd immediately see that something wasn't right. Even so, I'd lay you odds that they wouldn't care, because THEY WERE RANKING!

If another firm had quoted an appropriate price to give them long term rankings, they would almost certainly have said 'too expensive'... I've been there many times...

And PhDs cannot possibly be a measure of intellegence - one of my girlfriends has two PhDs and is blonde!

 

[cjd]

OP and friends could easily have asked for a copy of the articles the SEO Co was using and they'd immediately see that something wasn't right. Even so, I'd lay you odds that they wouldn't care, because THEY WERE RANKING!

It's brainless comments like these that give SEO a bad name.

 

[Suzuki]

It's brainless comments like these that give SEO a bad name.

He's right though... how come nobody realised they were using low quality tactics until it blew up in their faces?

They either new and didn't care, or they just chose not to make any attempt to make sure the seo company was doing a proper job. Either way its hard to feel sorry for them when it goes wrong - its their own fault.

 

Either way its hard to feel sorry for them when it goes wrong - its their own fault.

Hardly how is your average business owner supposed to know about SEO?

Earl

 

[Annoying Donkey]

Hardly how is your average business owner supposed to know about SEO?

Earl

Well I gave a simple example... OP claims to have SEO knowledge...

 

Well I gave a simple example... OP claims to have SEO knowledge...

As they say in the world of SEO.

"A little knowledge is dangerous"

"A lot of knowledge is lethal"

Earl

 

[directmarketingadvice]

They either new and didn't care, or they just chose not to make any attempt to make sure the seo company was doing a proper job.

So only and SEO (who won't need an SEO) should hire an SEO?

Steve

 

[cjd]

He's right though... how come nobody realised they were using low quality tactics until it blew up in their faces?

For a start, they were not using low quality tactics. The deal we had with them was that every piece of copy would be professionally written, unique, placed on hi-quality relevant sites and each would be signed off by me personally.

Neither was it cheap - in fact it was very expensive. Even so, if you read the SEO's explanations, they're saying that they couldn't make it work.

We never found out how good they were because they packed up before our campaign started, we lost a few quid but they did no damage. Luckily.

Others have since found out that their 'professional' copy was augmented without their knowledge by quantities of robot spun crap squirted onto retched sites. In other words the company was lying to them.

They either new and didn't care, or they just chose not to make any attempt to make sure the seo company was doing a proper job. Either way its hard to feel sorry for them when it goes wrong - its their own fault.

You guys need to stop blaming your customers and get your industry - such that it is - in order.

If you care about your work and want to build decent, professional businesses that customers can trust; form an industry association, get some codes of best practice together and start behaving like your not a bunch of snake oil salesmen.

 

[RadiusBPO]

You guys need to stop blaming your customers and get your industry - such that it is - in order.

If you care about your work and want to build decent, professional businesses that customers can trust; form an industry association, get some codes of best practice together and start behaving like your not a bunch of snake oil salesmen.

This is a very good idea, I think OWG tried before with some people..?? AM I right??

BUT massive issue is the huge misinformation from the SEOMOZ crowd and form Google.. Following Gs guidelines = no ranking ever for anything. Following Moz = £0000s per month campaigns.

It's very hard. Then there are people who offer google image optimisation as a part of their normal SEO service. Why the hell are they offering that to a voip company for example.

 

[MASSEY]

BUT massive issue is the huge misinformation from the SEOMOZ crowd and form Google.. Following Gs guidelines = no ranking ever for anything. Following Moz = £0000s per month campaigns.

I wouldn't say following google guidelines means no ranking.

The trouble with following googles guides is that it is just as expensive as SEOMOZ's stance on SEO.

Creating a great site that will attract links naturally will cost anyone a small fortune.

 

For a start, they were not using low quality tactics. The deal we had with them was that every piece of copy would be professionally written, unique, placed on hi-quality relevant sites and each would be signed off by me personally.

Neither was it cheap - in fact it was very expensive. Even so, if you read the SEO's explanations, they're saying that they couldn't make it work.

We never found out how good they were because they packed up before our campaign started, we lost a few quid but they did no damage. Luckily.

I take it you did not ask to see there previous work or get recommendations from there other clients.?

Very few top SEO's seem to advertise for work as its nearly all word of mouth recommendations.

In 14 years I have never advertised for work.

Earl

 

[bdw]

If you care about your work and want to build decent, professional businesses that customers can trust; form an industry association, get some codes of best practice together and start behaving like your not a bunch of snake oil salesmen.

Careful now. You are generalising and obviously miffed because you personally got stung.

This is the Internet and it's no secret that it is a jungle. Trust nothing and no one without due diligence and you'll be fine.

 

[Annoying Donkey]

For a start, they were not using low quality tactics. The deal we had with them was that every piece of copy would be professionally written, unique, placed on hi-quality relevant sites and each would be signed off by me personally.

According to your earlier post, you were with them for 2 months. You didn't receive a single article in that time? Didn't this raise questions?

Neither was it cheap - in fact it was very expensive. Even so, if you read the SEO's explanations, they're saying that they couldn't make it work.

With your SEO knowledge, surely you must have an idea how much time it takes to compile an article and get it posted on a decent site. Were their charges in line with your expectations on this?

You guys need to stop blaming your customers and get your industry - such that it is - in order.

I don't blame my customers so long as they do as they're told I am not responsible for others, only for what I and my partners and workers do.

If you care about your work and want to build decent, professional businesses that customers can trust; form an industry association, get some codes of best practice together and start behaving like your not a bunch of snake oil salesmen.

Industry associations rarely help anyone other than their members - I don't believe that is the answer.

 

[kulture]

The problem is that SEO is a jungle. Anyone can call themselves an SEO expert, regardless of their real knowledge. They can get lucky and promote some sites with good results for a while and get some good recommendations. Then they can damage and destroy some sites. All through ignorance.

 

[cjd]

I take it you did not ask to see there previous work or get recommendations from there other clients.?

Very few top SEO's seem to advertise for work as its nearly all word of mouth recommendations.

In 14 years I have never advertised for work.

Earl

Please re-read the original post.

After many years of doing our own SEO, we eventually gave in and paid an "expert". This company came highly recommended from people we trust. We received this from them yesterday.

We're not bloody idiots.

 

Please re-read the original post.



We're not bloody idiots.

Maybe you need to re evaluate the people you trust.

Did you look at there previous results?

A good SEO will tackle anything given the resources.

Or more importantly will not take on a project they know they can not succeed with.

Earl

 

[Esk247]

A good SEO will tackle anything given the resources.

They'll tackle my bank balance that's for sure

 

[cjd]

According to your earlier post, you were with them for 2 months. You didn't receive a single article in that time? Didn't this raise questions?

With your SEO knowledge, surely you must have an idea how much time it takes to compile an article and get it posted on a decent site. Were their charges in line with your expectations on this?

I don't blame my customers so long as they do as they're told I am not responsible for others, only for what I and my partners and workers do.

Industry associations rarely help anyone other than their members - I don't believe that is the answer.

We're a tech company - we employ real software engineers and we've been at it for quite a while. We do as more SEO ourselves for our own site than most people here that call themselves SEO experts.

We've also been around the block a few times; we're not mugs and we're not easily fooled. So please put your defensiveness aside and recognise that this industry has a real problem - no-one is going to trust you if these sort of event are repeated. You need to get your collective acts together and stop behaving like a bunch of cowboys.

 

[cjd]

Maybe you need to re evaluate the people you trust

Jesus H. Christ. You guys have a real problem.

 

[Esk247]

We're a tech company - we employ real software engineers and we've been at it for quite a while. We do as more SEO ourselves for our own site than most people here that call themselves SEO experts.

We've also been around the block a few times; we're not mugs and we're not easily fooled. So please put your defensiveness aside and recognise that this industry has a real problem - no-one is going to trust you if these sort of event are repeated. You ne to get your collective acts together and stop behaving like a bunch of cowboys.

Have you tried Salmon? (No joke, proper big, Halfords and Boots websites are operated and maintained by them)

They might be out of your budget but they are the big boys!

 

[terryuk]

Have you tried Salmon? (No joke, proper big, Halfords and Boots websites are operated and maintained by them)

They might be out of your budget but they are the big boys!

I would eat Salmon for lunch

 

Jesus H. Christ. You guys have a real problem.

Oh I thought it was you that had the problem.

I don't have problems.

I am not defending all SEO's ,just trying to point out how one tells the genuine from the tricksters.

I appreciate it is very easy for me to tell ,but not so easy for others.

Earl

 

[Suzuki]

Have you tried Salmon? (No joke, proper big, Halfords and Boots websites are operated and maintained by them)

They might be out of your budget but they are the big boys!

Its not necessarily a good idea to deliberately choose an seo company who do the seo for real brands etc when you're just 2 guys in a bedroom yourself... tactics that work for big companies don't work for the little guy. You could rank Halfords and Boots for major phrases without breaking any rules (or only bending them a little). You don't really have that luxury when you don't have a 15 year old brand with masses of link authority already behind it

 

[bdw]

Anyone can call themselves an SEO expert

Anyone can call themselves a web designer, kitchen fitter, painter, electrician, gardener, decorator, carpenter, plumber, builder or roofer. When was the last time you asked a "tradesman" to show you his qualifications?

The difference with SEO is that the concept is hard to understand for the majority of the people who want it. That makes them easy targets.

.

 

[Suzuki]

Anyone can call themselves a web designer, kitchen fitter, painter, electrician, gardener, decorator, carpenter, plumber, builder or roofer. When was the last time you asked a "tradesman" to show you his qualifications?

The difference with SEO is that the concept is hard to understand for the majority of the people who want it. That makes them easy targets.

.

Not a brilliant comparison as you can't call yourself a plumber or electrician one day without straight up breaking the law, and risking peoples lives in the process.

The major difference with scammers and idiots getting in on a niche, is that with SEO you can do absolutely nothing and charge a monthly fee, then when queried about it you can blame matt cuts, panda, thin content, algorithms, fairies or a million other things. If the guy who charged you to cut the grass or paint your front room hasn't done it, its going to be pretty obvious, pretty quickly

 

[RedEvo]

The difference with SEO is that the concept is hard to understand for the majority of the people who want it. That makes them easy targets.

I would suggest the problem with SEO isn't that it is hard to understand, it's actually the flawed concept at the heart of Google's algorithm that's the problem.

d

 

[RadiusBPO]

We're a tech company - we employ real software engineers and we've been at it for quite a while. We do as more SEO ourselves for our own site than most people here that call themselves SEO experts.

bugger me, there must be some **** SEO's about then

 

[bdw]

Not a brilliant comparison as you can't call yourself a plumber or electrician one day without straight up breaking the law,

I think you are wrong about this. AFAIA aware (and just like SEO) you don't legally require any qualifications to work as a plumber, an electrician or any of the aforementioned trades here in the UK.

.

 

[bdw]

I would suggest the problem with SEO isn't that it is hard to understand, it's actually the flawed concept at the heart of Google's algorithm that's the problem.

Not hard to understand? I permitted myself a wry smile when I heard you mention the "flawed concept at the heart of Google's algorithm" in the same sentence.

.

 

[Suzuki]

I think you are wrong about this. AFAIA aware (and just like SEO) you don't legally require any qualifications to work as a plumber, an electrician or any of the aforementioned trades here in the UK.

.

I have no idea but that doesn't sound right... are you saying I could go fit a gas boiler and then do all the electrical wiring in someones house

 

[RedEvo]

I have no idea but that doesn't sound right... are you saying I could go fit a gas boiler and then do all the electrical wiring in someones house

No you couldn't.

d

 

[cmcp]

Definitely not gas, you must be Gas Safe registered.

 

[Esk247]

do the seo for real brands etc when you're just 2 guys in a bedroom yourself... tactics that work for big companies don't work for the little guy. You don't really have that luxury when you don't have a 15 year old brand with masses of link authority already behind it

But...who says CJD doesn't have 15 years behind them in some way or another and who says they are not a recognised brand in their field?

So by definition, anyone who isn't Boots or Halfords is not a real brand? and they're just 2 men in a bedroom?

I best get on to them and tell them to drop the other 90% of their client base, they don't realise all the people they're having meetings with are just 2 guys from a bedroom in Surrey

CJD has said he is piddled off with the way he feels his company has been treated. I have suggested a company that have global knowledge and back that up with hugely impressive stats (millions of pounds turnover on web alone). Show me someone that can be trusted who does it for smaller companies?

 

[Suzuki]

But...who says CJD doesn't have 15 years behind them in some way or another and who says they are not a recognised brand in their field?

So by definition, anyone who isn't Boots or Halfords is not a real brand? and they're just 2 men in a bedroom?

I best get on to them and tell them to drop the other 90% of their client base, they don't realise all the people they're having meetings with are just 2 guys from a bedroom in Surrey

The only way google is going to recognise them as a brand is if they have lots of trusted incoming links etc - a quick check with Majestic SEO tells me that clearly isn't the case. They're just one of a million weak sites on the internet, ready for a slight algorithm tweak to wipe them out.

 

[cjd]

So far, it's fair to blame:

1. The customer, for being greedy and stupid.
2. The people who recommended them, for being un-trustworthy and gullible.
3. Google for having a flawed and broken algorithm
4. Google for being stupid or clever (pick one)
5. Google for being liars
5. Any SEO outfit that isn't yours, for being corrupt and useless

Have I missed anybody, school teacher, politicians or society itself perhaps?

 

[bdw]

There are specialties within most trades that do require qualifications, gas being one of them. As I understand it that would not stop you operating as plumber or an electrician. Some certification is required with these trades and you have to be qualified to issue this certification. I am not saying this is right BTW. I am a time served electrician myself - completed my apprenticeship in 1969.

I am however happy to admit that I am wrong if anyone can find legislation that states you have to be a qualified plumber to do plumbing work in the UK. I can't.

.

 

[bdw]

So far, it's fair to blame:

Blame them for what?

.

 

[kulture]

All plumbing work has to be done according to Water Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations 1999. All electrical work has to be done according to Part P of the building regulations.

There are no specific regulations for SEO

 

[Annoying Donkey]

There are no specific regulations for SEO

Yes there are, Giggle makes them... or rather makes them up as they go along...

 

[terryuk]

I have no idea but that doesn't sound right... are you saying I could go fit a gas boiler and then do all the electrical wiring in someones house

It's what they do on TV.. whilst having 100 tea breaks