Scotland - Ruling for a Referendum Declined

MOIC

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  • Nov 16, 2011
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    The Supreme Court has ruled against the Scottish government being able to hold a referendum to become an independent country.

    Good or bad for . . .

    United Kingdom?

    Scotland?

    Is it a denial of democracy?
     
    It's not a denial of democracy as it has not been heard in parliament for a second referendum

    It is difficult we have never done the Scots any favours and you can't blame them for seeking an alternative path
    If Scotland became independent and re-joined the EU they could potentially become prosperous if the country is managed in an effective way
     
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    Not a denial of democracy, the whole thing was voted on before, too early to do it again. Yes things have changed re Brexit, but as any Scots if they wish to have border controls, adopt the Euro and lose its major trading partner, and they are not stupid, there is no appetite for leaving.

    It’s not as if they can be fooled, the consequences of leaving and how it would have to treat trade with England and Wales would always make this a non starter. Wee krankie just loves floating the idea to flex what minuscule power she used to have, now she has zero power.
     
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    Is that a big If?

    If Scotland had a referendum to leave, then Wales will be next, then . . . ?
    When your in Wales it the same as being in Scotland! A place that is quite low on Westminster's priority's
     
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    Will Wales survive if they left the UK?

    As with any Nation, they would find a way, but the chance of things remaining as they are would be low. Nationalism is on the rise in my country, but it would help if the Welsh were treated more fairly in the allocation of funds.
     
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    Not a denial of democracy
    The SNP are doubling down, saying it's not democratic.

    The fact that Sturgeon is saying that the next GE will be a 'de facto' referendum on independence seems undemocratic to me.

    It'll be interesting to hear some views from Scots with their views.
     
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    If that is the legal position then I think it is correct for the Supreme Court to declare this.

    However I think it would be wrong and possibly a denial of democracy for Parliament to stop a referendum, especially with the track record of this Government.
     
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    I don't think I've met a Scott yet who wants independence or even had any respect for Sturgeon, but she keeps getting voted in by someone (I always reply) Is the whole independence (current) argument just hiding the appalling bad job they are doing running Scotland right now. And have the latest poles not suggested she would loose the vote again anyway
     
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    I don't think I've met a Scott yet who wants independence or even had any respect for Sturgeon, but she keeps getting voted in by someone (I always reply) Is the whole independence (current) argument just hiding the appalling bad job they are doing running Scotland right now. And have the latest poles not suggested she would loose the vote again anyway
    Then surely a post Brexit indy ref that voted to stay part of the union would truly put the matter to bed for a long time.

    I can totally understand the argument that one of the big campaign points of better together was that Scotland would be cast adrift from the UK/EU and have to make it's own application, which followed by the scottish remain vote would logically point to their maybe being enough scots who voted remain in indyref to remain in the EU, the only way to test if that is true is to have a vote now.

    BUT

    1. Nothing the supreme court said yesterday is undemocratic, all they did was explain the actual outcomes of the current laws as set in Parliament

    2. Any IndyRef2 could not be for less than 2 years as needs a properly set out manifesto/plan set out up front like last time and totally unlike Brexit.

    Personally, If i was Sunak I would say "ok, you do your paperwork now and if you win biggly enough in the next GE you can have a ref 2 years to the day later" - that kicks it out of his premiership UNLESS he turns things around so much that he gets voted back in and in that case Better Together would have a better chance of winning again anyway
     
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    I don't think I've met a Scott yet who wants independence or even had any respect for Sturgeon, but she keeps getting voted in by someone (I always reply) Is the whole independence (current) argument just hiding the appalling bad job they are doing running Scotland right now. And have the latest poles not suggested she would loose the vote again anyway
    Clearly you mix with the wrong people (smile). All the Scots I know,including my wife, want to the chance to vote on it. If our sovereignty was why we left EU, then we should respect theirs.
     
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    Clearly you mix with the wrong people (smile). All the Scots I know,including my wife, want to the chance to vote on it. If our sovereignty was why we left EU, then we should respect theirs.

    I agree, give the Scots the vote, on the proviso this is a once in 20 year vote, they understand border controls to be introduced for trade etc, no more Money from London and losing the £ for the Euro.

    The Scots will be much better informed on what the changes would be, seeing how the UK is treated by the EU as a third country, so the result will carry much more meaning. This takes Wee Krankies main threat away as well, even she knows the Scots would not be silly enough to lose so much trade.
     
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    Will Wales survive if they left the UK?
    I actually did a study on the subject of the comparative affluence of countries and size was a major contributor - the smaller, the better! If you look at the EU countries up to 2016, you will see that the only small and poor country is Portugal with its historically very low standards of education and recent political problems.

    In order to become affluent, having a smaller population really helps. Look at Ireland, Norway, Luxembourg, Finland, Sweden - all small and all affluent and rising in wealth fairly rapidly. Another factor is education, yet another is regional autonomy - from which we can conclude that decisions made locally are better than those made by central government.

    Personally, If i was Sunak I would say "ok, you do your paperwork now and if you win biggly enough in the next GE you can have a ref 2 years to the day later" - that kicks it out of his premiership UNLESS he turns things around so much that he gets voted back in and in that case Better Together would have a better chance of winning again anyway
    The more the Scots delay, the better are their chances! The 'No!' voters are mostly old and the under 50s are 5-to-3 for independence and the under 25s are about 5-to-2 for independence.

    And those polls predate the latest rounds of political turmoil.

    the Scots would not be silly enough to lose so much trade.
    Do you mean the way the whole UK voted to leave the EU? The mess that the various governments have made and continue to make over Brexit is another can of worms.

    Quote the leader op-ed in the Daily Telegraph, Tuesday -
    Frustrated Brexiteers have been reduced to arguing that the reason the economy is doing badly – the worst performing among the wealthiest nations, according to the OECD – has everything to do with the pandemic lockdowns and the war in Ukraine and nothing whatsoever to do with leaving the EU.
    Their problem is that fewer and fewer people believe this any more, not least because it isn’t true. Brexit has had a deleterious impact because we have seen all the downsides and none of the potential benefits. A recent YouGov opinion poll showed 56 per cent of voters now thought we were wrong to leave the EU and just 32 per cent thought it was right, both records.
    Confronted with such trends, you would have to be mad not to see Brexit becoming a millstone around the Conservative Party’s neck unless it can show some tangible benefits and not just talk about them.
    In short, there was no reason the UK could not have made Brexit a great success - but Johson managed in his inimitable style, to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by handing over negotiations to fools with little or no knowledge of EU law and even less knowledge of the economics of international trade. Ranged against them were platoons of PhDs with a profound understanding of these subjects.

    The young in Scotland look back upon a Scottish tradition of being international and traveling the World. For them, having the chance to live, work and study anywhere in Europe was a godsend (now denied them) and Brexit has proven to be a major factor in the debate over independence.
     
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    Like I said, give them the vote, they will know exactly the line the EU will take, and it’s effects.

    As for the UK Gov, yes, negotiated very badly with the EU, I said so at the time. Let’s not pretend everything is rosy in the EU either. None of the Western countries are covering themselves with glory.
     
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    Let’s not pretend everything is rosy in the EU either. None of the Western countries are covering themselves with glory.
    The ECB has been printing money - much to the dismay of the Bundesbank - and governments have been borrowing money into existence like there's no tomorrow! Inflation as a result is going up like crazy. So yes, you are right on the money there!
     
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    I agree, give the Scots the vote, on the proviso this is a once in 20 year vote, they understand border controls to be introduced for trade etc, no more Money from London and losing the £ for the Euro.

    The Scots will be much better informed on what the changes would be, seeing how the UK is treated by the EU as a third country, so the result will carry much more meaning. This takes Wee Krankies main threat away as well, even she knows the Scots would not be silly enough to lose so much trade.
    Yes certainly more informed than Brexiters were. Not sure there needs to be a year limit, it is a democracy so should go on the will of the people. Our Scottish suppliers are well aware of border controls due to Brexit, so if they get EU membership, will no doubt benefit. I am sure UK would be more than happy to do a trade deal with the UK, they like the whiskey too much.
     
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    Not a denial of democracy, the whole thing was voted on before, too early to do it again. Yes things have changed re Brexit, but as any Scots if they wish to have border controls, adopt the Euro and lose its major trading partner, and they are not stupid, there is no appetite for leaving.

    It’s not as if they can be fooled, the consequences of leaving and how it would have to treat trade with England and Wales would always make this a non starter. Wee krankie just loves floating the idea to flex what minuscule power she used to have, now she has zero power.
    It's nonsense to say there is no appetite to leave. There clearly is, you only have to look back at the last referendum when 44% of the vote wanted it.

    Things have changed now significantly now.

    You really don't appear to know anything about this and your comments about 'Krankie' and that it should be a once in 20 year thing, to vote for what happens to their own country, sets out your position very clearly in that none of your comments can be taken seriously as you are clearly heavily biased.
     
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    Yes certainly more informed than Brexiters were. Not sure there needs to be a year limit, it is a democracy so should go on the will of the people. Our Scottish suppliers are well aware of border controls due to Brexit, so if they get EU membership, will no doubt benefit. I am sure UK would be more than happy to do a trade deal with the UK, they like the whiskey too much.
    You drank that much of it you can't spell it Trevor ;) whisky for Scotch.
     
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    I don't think I've met a Scott yet who wants independence or even had any respect for Sturgeon, but she keeps getting voted in by someone (I always reply) Is the whole independence (current) argument just hiding the appalling bad job they are doing running Scotland right now. And have the latest poles not suggested she would loose the vote again anyway
    There is a certain demographic don't want it. So if these are the Scots you're meeting then it's not surprising.
     
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    Is it a denial of democracy?
    Yes. The Act of Union between England and Scotland in 1706 was ostensibly supposed to be a voluntary union as it required both Scottish and English parliaments to ratify the Act of Union and it is the ability of the Scottish Parliament to have the power to hold a referendum on this issue that was judged by the Supreme Court.

    It was probably a win for independence because democracy was denied. The judgement changes the legal nature of the union.

    In effect, the judges have said "If the Act of Union was not freely entered into, Scotland must have permission for a referendum from the Prime Minister. Even if it was indeed freely entered into, the union is no longer voluntary because The Parliament of Scotland as an independent and autonomous body was prorogued and dissolved in 1707 and no longer exists. If the Prime Minister refuses to grant permission for a referendum, the union becomes mandatory and therefore can be imposed by force if necessary."

    The court said no, it’s a reserved power and Scotland must get the agreement of the Prime Minister. Therefore the voluntary nature of the Union no longer exists and TBH, in an unwritten constitution that supported a voluntary union, governments are supposed to respect democracy.

    Because the union was entered into by Scotland and England voluntarily and because the court decided that it is no longer voluntary, that makes this issue a purely political question.

    This could be called The Other West Lothian Question - the first one asks whether MPs from Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales who sit in the House of Commons should be able to vote on matters that affect only England, while MPs from England are unable to vote on matters that have been devolved to the regional assemblies.

    This other question asks "Can a country that has joined a union with another larger and more powerful country and did so willingly and in accordance with the democratic principles of that time, be forced against the will of its people to remain within that union?"

    I do not think that the pro-union side has thought through the ramifications of both this judgement and the recent behaviour of the last three Westminster governments.
     
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    It's nonsense to say there is no appetite to leave. There clearly is, you only have to look back at the last referendum when 44% of the vote wanted it.

    Things have changed now significantly now.

    You really don't appear to know anything about this and your comments about 'Krankie' and that it should be a once in 20 year thing, to vote for what happens to their own country, sets out your position very clearly in that none of your comments can be taken seriously as you are clearly heavily biased.
    I have repeatedly supported a referendum, very pro democracy. Previous support means little today, from the Scots I talk too they have no more faith in the SNP than London, but happy to give them the choice.

    The fact the Scots are sensible is why I feel the vote will go against it, yes they MIGHT get back into the EU, but most know they will lose the main trading partner. Still, there decision.
     
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    It's not a denial of democracy as it has not been heard in parliament for a second referendum

    It is difficult we have never done the Scots any favours and you can't blame them for seeking an alternative path
    If Scotland became independent and re-joined the EU they could potentially become prosperous if the country is managed in an effective way
    In a democracy, people get a vote every 4 years.

    If we had one election and then the ruling party changed the laws to prevent another election from happing is that a democracy?

    I feel brexit will cause NI to becone economically weaker and republicans to get more support to join the stronger Ireland.

    Scotland.. The inevitable.

    There's even groaning from Welsh nationalists to leave the union.

    Now had the remain camp made that clear.. That leaving the EU would break up the UK. I wonder if remain camp would have lost
     
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    I have repeatedly supported a referendum, very pro democracy. Previous support means little today, from the Scots I talk too they have no more faith in the SNP than London, but happy to give them the choice.

    The fact the Scots are sensible is why I feel the vote will go against it, yes they MIGHT get back into the EU, but most know they will lose the main trading partner. Still, there decision.
    You support a referendum but have commented above that it should be once every 20 years!

    To be clear you only want the Scots to have a say in what happens in their country that often?

    Being part of the union is a choice. It's not an absolute that they must always abide by.

    I don't think they'll 'lose' anything. People always say things like this. The reality is that they may lose some, they may not.

    As I said I'd rather Scotland voted for what is in their best interest. Forget everyone else. For me that's to be come completely independent.

    Regardless of some of the comments on here I think we're both in broad agreement that Scotland should be entitled to a referendum if they want one.
     
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    You support a referendum but have commented above that it should be once every 20 years!

    To be clear you only want the Scots to have a say in what happens in their country that often?

    The Scots have their own Parliament and have substantial say over matters already, but things like referendums in my view should only be occasionally allowed, the reason being does a vote just keep getting asked until the “right” answer is given? The same argument applies to the rest of the UK.

    As I said I'd rather Scotland voted for what is in their best interest. Forget everyone else. For me that's to be come completely independent.
    I will have a slight disagreement on your definition of complete independence, I might have the wrong idea, but Sturgeon seems to be pushing to leave the UK to gain independence, but then give that away by joining the EU.

    Now if that is what the Scots want fine, go ahead, but that is not true independence, since you will not control your interest rates, your money supply, your borders, etc etc.

    Personally I have always found the Scottish people I have known to be very shrewd and clever, and whilst their is a vocal minority, I think, from afar, the bulk on seeing what they are likely to lose will prefer to stay.

    Of course, I have been wrong in the past and could be on this, but that’s the impression I am given.
     
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    The Scots have their own Parliament and have substantial say over matters already, but things like referendums in my view should only be occasionally allowed, the reason being does a vote just keep getting asked until the “right” answer is given? The same argument applies to the rest of the UK.


    I will have a slight disagreement on your definition of complete independence, I might have the wrong idea, but Sturgeon seems to be pushing to leave the UK to gain independence, but then give that away by joining the EU.

    Now if that is what the Scots want fine, go ahead, but that is not true independence, since you will not control your interest rates, your money supply, your borders, etc etc.

    Personally I have always found the Scottish people I have known to be very shrewd and clever, and whilst their is a vocal minority, I think, from afar, the bulk on seeing what they are likely to lose will prefer to stay.

    Of course, I have been wrong in the past and could be on this, but that’s the impression I am given.
    If you know enough about this (I'm not saying you don't) but they don't have control over the most important thing, finance.

    Yes they can raise taxes but why should they?

    Again a referendum should be allowed whenever Scotland wants it. We're not going to agree on this but as I've said, it's down to Scotland what they want to do with THEIR country so no one should be trying to stand in their way.

    They will have complete autonomy as to whether to re-join the EU or not. Who's to say she wouldn't have her own referendum on that? Maybe not but she would have to make that clear in any manifesto.

    Britain is a lot worse off since coming out of the EU IMO so I don't see this as a negative anyway.

    The last referendum was close and with everything that's happened in between I'm not so sure. It's very much mostly the older generation of those of a certain demographic keeping Scotland as part of the UK.

    Regardless it will happen one day and I hope to live to see it.
     
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    Will Wales survive if they left the UK?
    Not a hope in hell. In the days of major industry , possibly a slight chance but all the business owners were English , so probably not even then.
    When you realise that the population of Wales is half that of London it puts it into perspective.
    I would certainly vote against it.
     
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    Not a hope in hell. In the days of major industry , possibly a slight chance but all the business owners were English , so probably not even then.
    When you realise that the population of Wales is half that of London it puts it into perspective.
    I would certainly vote against it.
    All the business owners in Wales are English?
     
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    In a democracy, people get a vote every 4 years.
    Who sets that arbitrary period? It's not 4 years for the UK, are we, therefore, not a democracy?
    If we had one election and then the ruling party changed the laws to prevent another election from happing is that a democracy?
    They almost did in the UK. The fixed term parliament act made it a whole lot more difficult to call an election. Was that undemocratic?
     
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    You support a referendum but have commented above that it should be once every 20 years!
    When it was promoted as "once in a generation", yes, thats perfectly reasonable.

    Or perhaps it should be every year, alongside local council elections. I am sure most scots would be happy at the expense involved.

    Perhaps England should have a referendum, do we want to keep Scotland?
     
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    When it was promoted as "once in a generation", yes, thats perfectly reasonable.

    Or perhaps it should be every year, alongside local council elections. I am sure most scots would be happy at the expense involved.

    Perhaps England should have a referendum, do we want to keep Scotland?
    Again Scotland should be free to hold a referendum whenever they see fit. It is their country alone.

    England doesn't have to incur any expense if it doesn't get involved. Maybe they shouldn't.

    Like Brexit it was a campaign run on fear with so much said that was untrue.
     
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    Again Scotland should be free to hold a referendum whenever they see fit. It is their country alone.
    I see Sturgeon is potentially in trouble for using tax payers money and the Scottish civil service for the referendum campaign. Especially now it's been clarified they have no business in doing so.
     
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    Like Brexit it was a campaign run on fear with so much said that was untrue.
    On both sides.

    Maybe we should have a referendum in England asking if we should cut ties with Scotland. I’d quite happily vote yes.
     
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    Yes they can raise taxes but why should they?
    Regardless it will happen one day and I hope to live to see it.

    If the Scots do go independent they will learn things like taxes need to be raised. The Scots already get a higher than average contribution from London.

    What will be will be, I don’t see it happening just yet, but in 20-30 years time, who knows?
     
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    Not a hope in hell. In the days of major industry , possibly a slight chance but all the business owners were English , so probably not even then.
    When you realise that the population of Wales is half that of London it puts it into perspective.
    I would certainly vote against it.

    So there are no countries with a population similar to Wales that exists without needing to be part of a larger country?
     
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