Scotland - Ruling for a Referendum Declined

[DontAsk]

So there are no countries with a population similar to Wales that exists without needing to be part of a larger country?

Maybe, but the question should be do they have the same demographic and natural and financial resources of Wales and the Welsh?

 

[The Byre]

So there are no countries with a population similar to Wales that exists without needing to be part of a larger country?

That's dozens of small countries, including several in Europe like Luxembourg, Andora and Lichtenstein, screwed then! And as stated before, usually considerably more affluent than their larger counterparts.

 

[Newchodge]

Perhaps England should have a referendum, do we want to keep Scotland?

I think I agree it could be a UK referendum, but England does not currently 'have' Scotland, so cannot keep it.

 

[DEBS Ltd]

Pay attention! At the height of the industrial revolution when industry in Wales was in its heyday 1760 - 1890 the industrialists were mainly English.

I have attention deficit disorder.

Sorry if that doesn't fit in with you being blunt and rude.

 

[DEBS Ltd]

On both sides.

Maybe we should have a referendum in England asking if we should cut ties with Scotland. I’d quite happily vote yes.

Can you give me examples of a fear campaign being run by the pro independence side?

 

[DEBS Ltd]

If the Scots do go independent they will learn things like taxes need to be raised. The Scots already get a higher than average contribution from London.

What will be will be, I don’t see it happening just yet, but in 20-30 years time, who knows?

There is no actual evidence to say Scotland gets a 'higher than average contribution'. There are papers claim for and against it. However as we don't see the specific budget then we can't be sure either way.

If Scotland is getting higher than average why is the UK/England so keen to hang onto them?

 

[DontAsk]

I think I agree it could be a UK referendum, but England does not currently 'have' Scotland, so cannot keep it.

You know what I mean

Personally, I say give the Scots their referendum and let them go their own way should they so choose.

 

[MBE2017]

If Scotland is getting higher than average why is the UK/England so keen to hang onto them?

What makes you think people are so keen to hang onto the Scots? The people and the Government are different things. I think most people are tired of the constant calls for a referendum.

Personally I think another referendum is too early to be considered, but IF the Scots truly want one then so be it. The big question is do the Scots really want another referendum or is it Sturgeon trying to use it yet again as a political wrecking ball.

 

[The Byre]

If Scotland is getting higher than average why is the UK/England so keen to hang onto them?

• Oil revenues.
• Status quo.
• EU membership would see thousands of companies and therefore sources of wealth and tax revenues migrate to Scotland.
• Brexit would become more and more absurd and unworkable than it is already.
• Scotland has other natural resources like water and power that it currently exports to England.
• An independent Scotland would attract inward investment from the US in the same way that Ireland has been able to do.
• An independent Scotland would destabilise the regions and encourage Wales and the SW of England to do the same, thereby diminishing the political and economic power of London.

TBH, there are no sensible economic or democratic arguments for trying to prevent Scottish independence - it remains however Westminster's worst nightmare. At that moment, England becomes greatly diminished and can no longer justify the title of Great Britain.

 

[lesliedocherty]

If the Scots do go independent they will learn things like taxes need to be raised. The Scots already get a higher than average contribution from London.

What will be will be, I don’t see it happening just yet, but in 20-30 years time, who knows?

There is a whole poor & working-class people who can't see any way of things getting better, for them it can't get any worse so might as well vote to leave.
I hear this argument all the time

Also, complex arguments are reduced to who has the best soundbite. The UK government doesn't do itself any favours on promoting what it does well.

 

[Newchodge]

The UK government doesn't do itself any favours on promoting what it does well.

Currently there is a very good reason for that!

 

[DEBS Ltd]

• Oil revenues.
• Status quo.
• EU membership would see thousands of companies and therefore sources of wealth and tax revenues migrate to Scotland.
• Brexit would become more and more absurd and unworkable than it is already.
• Scotland has other natural resources like water and power that it currently exports to England.
• An independent Scotland would attract inward investment from the US in the same way that Ireland has been able to do.
• An independent Scotland would destabilise the regions and encourage Wales and the SW of England to do the same, thereby diminishing the political and economic power of London.

TBH, there are no sensible economic or democratic arguments for trying to prevent Scottish independence - it remains however Westminster's worst nightmare. At that moment, England becomes greatly diminished and can no longer justify the title of Great Britain.

....renewables, Scotland being the only country in the UK to have a surplus in exports with food, drink, fish as well as oil and gas and a booming economy in life sciences and digital works..........

In other words there are many reasons.

 

[lesliedocherty]

Currently there is a very good reason for that!

I agree but maybe they could do a better job educating the public on what are devolved matters and where the blame should be at the foot of the Scottish Government rather than everything being blamed on the Tories.
Bit like everything was blamed on Europe, never heard much push back about this being wrong

 

[Scubadog]

• Oil revenues.
• Status quo.
• EU membership would see thousands of companies and therefore sources of wealth and tax revenues migrate to Scotland.
• Brexit would become more and more absurd and unworkable than it is already.
• Scotland has other natural resources like water and power that it currently exports to England.
• An independent Scotland would attract inward investment from the US in the same way that Ireland has been able to do.
• An independent Scotland would destabilise the regions and encourage Wales and the SW of England to do the same, thereby diminishing the political and economic power of London.

TBH, there are no sensible economic or democratic arguments for trying to prevent Scottish independence - it remains however Westminster's worst nightmare. At that moment, England becomes greatly diminished and can no longer justify the title of Great Britain.

Woa woa woa


Let's just be clear.....Scotland doesn't own oil.....the companies that are registered on LSE do!

Scotland doesn't generate power....companies that have invested do!

People from Scotland often seem to forget this.

 

[Scubadog]

....renewables, Scotland being the only country in the UK to have a surplus in exports with food, drink, fish as well as oil and gas and a booming economy in life sciences and digital works..........

In other words there are many reasons.

How many barels of oil does SNP actually produce each year?

Is it none? It sounds like none.

Scotland doesn't produce anything. Companies do....and usually they are listed on LSE.

 

[Scubadog]

• Oil revenues.
• Status quo.
• EU membership would see thousands of companies and therefore sources of wealth and tax revenues migrate to Scotland.
• Brexit would become more and more absurd and unworkable than it is already.
• Scotland has other natural resources like water and power that it currently exports to England.
• An independent Scotland would attract inward investment from the US in the same way that Ireland has been able to do.
• An independent Scotland would destabilise the regions and encourage Wales and the SW of England to do the same, thereby diminishing the political and economic power of London.

TBH, there are no sensible economic or democratic arguments for trying to prevent Scottish independence - it remains however Westminster's worst nightmare. At that moment, England becomes greatly diminished and can no longer justify the title of Great Britain.

It makes me laugh people that call brexit absurd, whilst in the same breath calling g for Scottish independence, swiftly followed up by Scotland loosing its independence and joining the EU.


What do you propose? Rebuilding hadrians wall and set up customs there? All the reasons you despise brexit are the same reason why Scotland shouldn't take yet another vote.

But it appeased your own bias to ignore the facts of your hypocrisy.

 

[DEBS Ltd]

How many barels of oil does SNP actually produce each year?

Is it none? It sounds like none.

Scotland doesn't produce anything. Companies do....and usually they are listed on LSE.

No one said they do.

Neither does the UK.

They do make tax from that oil though.

As would Scotland alone.

The line about bias and hypocrisy could easily be applied to your attempted engagement. I won't call it debate as it isn't even starting one.

 

[Scubadog]

No one said they do.

Neither does the UK.

They do make tax from that oil though.

As would Scotland alone.

The line about bias and hypocrisy could easily be applied to your attempted engagement. I won't call it debate as it isn't even starting one.

Why would Scotland make tax from a company registered in England?

And yes...plenty do say that...as the insinuation here.

 

[DEBS Ltd]

Why would Scotland make tax from a company registered in England?

And yes...plenty do say that...as the insinuation here.

Because they’d be drilling in Scottish waters not English.

You pay tax where your work is domiciled. That wouldn’t be the U.K. or whatever they chose to call it following independence.

 

[The Byre]

It makes me laugh people that call brexit absurd, whilst in the same breath calling g for Scottish independence, swiftly followed up by Scotland loosing its independence and joining the EU.

Ah! The old fallacy that membership of the EU means that a country is no longer independent.

The UK is a part of Europe. That is a fact of geography. The looney right may regret that it is a part of the European subcontinent, but we are where we are. The UK can no more divorce itself from Europe than I can levitate!

You speak a deeply European language, made up of Norman French and Germanic words and based upon a Germanic grammatical structure. You even call yourselves Anglo-Saxons - do you even know what that means and where Saxony is?

Until very recently, almost every type of indigenous British person came here from somewhere in Europe. When the ice sheets retreated, the Picts and the Celts from France and Spain, the Saxons from what is today Germany, the Normans from Scandinavia via Normandy - and so on.

Today, we are far more diverse, with people coming from Africa, the Caribbean, the Far East, the Middle East, you name it and people came here from those places and have been settling right across Europe - the UK included.

What do you propose? Rebuilding hadrians wall and set up customs there?

That Herculean task is purely a matter for the English! And if you think that the border between NI and Ireland is impossible to police or control, just try the border between Scotland and England! The Scottish Government has already stated that it would not set up customs controls.

As this inept shower in Westminster cannot stop boatloads of people coming from France, what chance do they have stopping trade with Scotland?

Tip - The Rest EU is a bit bigger and economically and politically more important than Little England. So membership of which trading body would be more important to an independent Scotland? (Contrast and compare with Ireland!)

In fact, England has one-tenth the population and less than one-tenth of the economic importance of the EU.

And thanks to 12 years of a series of incompetent governments, the likes of which we have never seen before, the UK economy is diminishing. GDP is falling in real terms as a direct result of political dogma - the austerity anomaly was followed by the trickle-down fallacy, followed by the Truss lunacy and now a government that refuses to believe that the Laffer curve is a thing and that a country can borrow it's way out of debt.

It is not a question of can Scotland afford to leave the union. The real question Scotland has to ask itself is - Can Scotland afford to stay in the union?

 

[Newchodge]

You even call yourselves Anglo-Saxons - do you even know what that means and where Saxony is

Or where the Angles came from? Hint: It is also what we now call Germany.

 

[DontAsk]

Why would Scotland make tax from a company registered in England?

And yes...plenty do say that...as the insinuation here.

They would issue licenses and tax the companies for the right to drill in Scottish waters.

Those companies registered on the LSE will be paying wages they will be taxed by the Scottish government.

The Scottish government may set up their own stock exchange and companies may choose to list there.

Your objections don't really stack up.

 

[Scubadog]

Ah! The old fallacy that membership of the EU means that a country is no longer independent.

The UK is a part of Europe. That is a fact of geography. The looney right may regret that it is a part of the European subcontinent, but we are where we are. The UK can no more divorce itself from Europe than I can levitate!

You speak a deeply European language, made up of Norman French and Germanic words and based upon a Germanic grammatical structure. You even call yourselves Anglo-Saxons - do you even know what that means and where Saxony is?

Until very recently, almost every type of indigenous British person came here from somewhere in Europe. When the ice sheets retreated, the Picts and the Celts from France and Spain, the Saxons from what is today Germany, the Normans from Scandinavia via Normandy - and so on.

Today, we are far more diverse, with people coming from Africa, the Caribbean, the Far East, the Middle East, you name it and people came here from those places and have been settling right across Europe - the UK included.

That Herculean task is purely a matter for the English! And if you think that the border between NI and Ireland is impossible to police or control, just try the border between Scotland and England! The Scottish Government has already stated that it would not set up customs controls.

As this inept shower in Westminster cannot stop boatloads of people coming from France, what chance do they have stopping trade with Scotland?

Tip - The Rest EU is a bit bigger and economically and politically more important than Little England. So membership of which trading body would be more important to an independent Scotland? (Contrast and compare with Ireland!)

In fact, England has one-tenth the population and less than one-tenth of the economic importance of the EU.

And thanks to 12 years of a series of incompetent governments, the likes of which we have never seen before, the UK economy is diminishing. GDP is falling in real terms as a direct result of political dogma - the austerity anomaly was followed by the trickle-down fallacy, followed by the Truss lunacy and now a government that refuses to believe that the Laffer curve is a thing and that a country can borrow it's way out of debt.

It is not a question of can Scotland afford to leave the union. The real question Scotland has to ask itself is - Can Scotland afford to stay in the union?

Errmmmm everyon onm this thread was taling EU....have a guess what the U stands for and how its different from the continent.
And your points regarding boarders...if i had my way would apply to Northern ireland. Sod the EU, let them deal with the border issue.. The problem , was loonie lefty's insisted "no deal was taken off the table". This is why the deal was crap.

Typical Byre doom monger....just picking out the pieces that suit your bias....all be it, most of the time wrong!
Honestly, you remind me of Eeyore.

 

[Scubadog]

They would issue licenses and tax the companies for the right to drill in Scottish waters.

Those companies registered on the LSE will be paying wages they will be taxed by the Scottish government.

The Scottish government may set up their own stock exchange and companies may choose to list there.

Your objections don't really stack up.

Oh...you think companies still wish to drill in Scottish waters? And you are banking this on oil still being a dominent thing in 50 years time? Lol

But yea sure, you pay for things through NIC and income tax....not through selling "Scottish oil" which is the thing most people seem to think is the case!

 

[Scubadog]

Because they’d be drilling in Scottish waters not English.

You pay tax where your work is domiciled. That wouldn’t be the U.K. or whatever they chose to call it following independence.

Think that one through....just a little bit if you can.

Out of interest, who's gonna buy Scottish energy? Have you considered what happens when little England tells Scotland to pish off? How many seconds does their energy infrastructure last before catastrophic collapse (hint...less than 60 seconds)

 

[MBE2017]

..... if you think that the border between NI and Ireland is impossible to police or control, just try the border between Scotland and England! The Scottish Government has already stated that it would not set up customs controls.

Scotland might not want border controls, but the EU would impose them to stop other UK goods entering the EU through Scotland, just as it has with Northern Ireland.

You can not argue the EU are right with the Irish border and then argue nothing would be done regarding the Scottish border. It won’t matter what Scotland wants, it will be out of their hands.

 

[DontAsk]

Oh...you think companies still wish to drill in Scottish waters? And you are banking this on oil still being a dominent thing in 50 years time? Lol

No, merely poinmting out what he argument would be. The higher the oil price goes, the more drilling is economic.

But yea sure, you pay for things through NIC and income tax....not through selling "Scottish oil" which is the thing most people seem to think is the case!

You know what they meant.

 

[DontAsk]

Out of interest, who's gonna buy Scottish energy? Have you considered what happens when little England tells Scotland to pish off?

Why do you think we would do that? Would you rather we buy from the Russians or other dodgy regimes?

How many seconds does their energy infrastructure last before catastrophic collapse (hint...less than 60 seconds)

?

 

[Scubadog]

No, merely poinmting out what he argument would be. The higher the oil price goes, the more drilling is economic.

You know what they meant.

If Scottish people wish to stake their entire argument on oil drilling then i say crack on. Oil will be of little use on the quantities we are used to in the imminent future. That's why the likes of Shell and BP are already scaling back drilling, refinery and even petrol forecourts. But yea...you crack on Scotland..its YOUR oil....shame its soon to be worthless!

By the way, i love Scotland, but hate alot of Scottish people residing in thje slums they call cities. So personally, i would love nothing more than seeing them get lost, and screw themselves over. No more barnet formula. No more free prescriptions, no more SNP hiding their failures behind Westminster. Build the wall (as the EU will insist) and watch their economy tank! Main exports appear to be crack, smack, heroin and whiskey.

BRING IT ON!

 

[Scubadog]

Why do you think we would do that? Would you rather we buy from the Russians or other dodgy regimes?


?

Guessing you are not an electrical engineer understanding the grid ties and spinning reserves?
See this is why people who dont know shouldnt try and determine a countrys economic strategy based on hearsay on forums!
All England needs to do is shut down the DC link for a few minutes and Scotland's entire grid will collapse. FYI for electricicyt, England doesn't need Russia or Scotland for that matter. Scotland relies on BOTH!
Within the next 20 years, England will be entirely energy self sufficient.

Scotland doesn't even have a DC link to anywhere besides England, Northern Ireland, and Shetland......in short their grid wouldn't survive without England.....les than 60 seconds!

how many large spinning generators does Scotland have? is it none? Im pretty sure its None! Instead they rely on England's.....without these, you voltage....but no power!
Switch it off i say!

Im sick and tired of hearing whiging scots, moan that they voted to stay in the UK, and now want nother vot because they didnt like the poutcome of one taken b y the entire country they decided to stay in!! Honestly, the Scotts have changed. They used to be reveared...now they just appear most lefty junkie alcoholics.

 

[DontAsk]

how many large spinning generators does Scotland have? is it none? Im pretty sure its None!

So you don't know as much as you seem to claim.

 

[DEBS Ltd]

Errmmmm everyon onm this thread was taling EU....have a guess what the U stands for and how its different from the continent.
And your points regarding boarders...if i had my way would apply to Northern ireland. Sod the EU, let them deal with the border issue.. The problem , was loonie lefty's insisted "no deal was taken off the table". This is why the deal was crap.

Typical Byre doom monger....just picking out the pieces that suit your bias....all be it, most of the time wrong!
Honestly, you remind me of Eeyore.

Can you tell us what “boarders” are in the context you’re using the word here?

 

[The Byre]

Guessing you are not an electrical engineer understanding the grid ties and spinning reserves?
See this is why people who dont know shouldnt try and determine a countrys economic strategy based on hearsay on forums!

Oh dear! Dunning Kruger syndrome strikes again!

As I have written several economics papers on UK and Scottish electricity supplies and their markets, you can take it as a given that Scotland was, is and always has been a net exporter of electricity. Of course, it is also a net exporter of oil and gas, and mankind will require oil and gas for industrial purposes for a few hundred years to come for such things as plastics, fertilizers and other chemicals.

The main export markets for Scottish electricity are England and Ireland and will continue to be so, with or without independence. The big story here is renewables and wind in particular. Overall, renewables have multiplied threefold in the past 12 years and today account for 99% of all electricity generation in Scotland.

When I wrote my first paper on the subject, it was just 25% and neither I nor the various politicians on all sides expected renewables of all sorts to become as successful as they have been.

how many large spinning generators does Scotland have? is it none?

I think you are confusing spinning reserves with whatever you think spinning generators means. All electromechanical generators used for power supplies spin. Scotland has considerable hydroelectric pump storage to cover the few periods of low wind and low rainfall and also has gas and for the time being, nuclear - until such time as more pump storage and other standby sources come online.

Honestly, the Scotts have changed. They used to be reveared...now they just appear most lefty junkie alcoholics.

I have never met a Scottish lefty, junkie alcoholic*, so I cannot judge your hysterical insult for its accuracy.

I did meet an extreme right-wing junkie alcoholic once, but he was one of those vapid English, Oxford - PPE graduate business types and I am sure that you would agree that a whole nation should not be judged by just that one specimen! (Though he did fit the popular view of what a joke Englishman should look like - right down to the pot belly and the bad teeth!)

*If I did see one coming, I would probably give him a wide berth!

 

[simon field]

Well dismantled that man!

 

[Mr D]

Pay attention! At the height of the industrial revolution when industry in Wales was in its heyday 1760 - 1890 the industrialists were mainly English.

Who was providing the finance?

 

[Mr D]

Oh dear! Dunning Kruger syndrome strikes again!

As I have written several economics papers on UK and Scottish electricity supplies and their markets, you can take it as a given that Scotland was, is and always has been a net exporter of electricity. Of course, it is also a net exporter of oil and gas, and mankind will require oil and gas for industrial purposes for a few hundred years to come for such things as plastics, fertilizers and other chemicals.

The main export markets for Scottish electricity are England and Ireland and will continue to be so, with or without independence. The big story here is renewables and wind in particular. Overall, renewables have multiplied threefold in the past 12 years and today account for 99% of all electricity generation in Scotland.

When I wrote my first paper on the subject, it was just 25% and neither I nor the various politicians on all sides expected renewables of all sorts to become as successful as they have been.


I think you are confusing spinning reserves with whatever you think spinning generators means. All electromechanical generators used for power supplies spin. Scotland has considerable hydroelectric pump storage to cover the few periods of low wind and low rainfall and also has gas and for the time being, nuclear - until such time as more pump storage and other standby sources come online.

I have never met a Scottish lefty, junkie alcoholic*, so I cannot judge your hysterical insult for its accuracy.

I did meet an extreme right-wing junkie alcoholic once, but he was one of those vapid English, Oxford - PPE graduate business types and I am sure that you would agree that a whole nation should not be judged by just that one specimen! (Though he did fit the popular view of what a joke Englishman should look like - right down to the pot belly and the bad teeth!)

*If I did see one coming, I would probably give him a wide berth!

Scotland is exporting electricity? or companies exporting it?

 

[Mr D]

You know what I mean

Personally, I say give the Scots their referendum and let them go their own way should they so choose.

If was a UK referendum they'd get independence. While its Scotland only then its more problematic.

Of course once they get independence then the other independence operations can start. For the same reasons.
Independence from Edinburgh.

 

[NickGrogan]

All England needs to do is shut down the DC link for a few minutes and Scotland's entire grid will collapse. FYI for electricicyt, England doesn't need Russia or Scotland for that matter. Scotland relies on BOTH!

I presume you're referring to the Western HVDC link

The one that tripped on Friday 18th June 2021, and took more than a month to fix?

https://www.nationalgrideso.com/document/198776/download

Strange I don't remember all the lights going out for a whole month. Does anyone else in Scotland remember?

As Scotland has no cables or pipes connecting us to Russia, can you explain how our grid relies on them?

Scotland doesn't even have a DC link to anywhere besides England, Northern Ireland, and Shetland......in short their grid wouldn't survive without England.....les than 60 seconds!

Maybe that's because we produce more power than we need and have a ready customer in England for all the power we want to export.

Since we're playing what if. What if Scotland cut off the gas supply to England? 25% of all the UK's gas comes through St Fergus.

We'd love to be your new energy partner. - Niccolo Gas and Power

We source electricity and gas for mid sized energy users.

niccolo.co.uk

That's a big drop and England has very little gas storage.

 

[DontAsk]

I presume you're referring to the Western HVDC link

The one that tripped on Friday 18th June 2021, and took more than a month to fix?

https://www.nationalgrideso.com/document/198776/download

Strange I don't remember all the lights going out for a whole month. Does anyone else in Scotland remember?

LOL, perhaps they used the AC links?

 

[Scubadog]

I presume you're referring to the Western HVDC link

The one that tripped on Friday 18th June 2021, and took more than a month to fix?

https://www.nationalgrideso.com/document/198776/download

Strange I don't remember all the lights going out for a whole month. Does anyone else in Scotland remember?

As Scotland has no cables or pipes connecting us to Russia, can you explain how our grid relies on them?


Maybe that's because we produce more power than we need and have a ready customer in England for all the power we want to export.

Since we're playing what if. What if Scotland cut off the gas supply to England? 25% of all the UK's gas comes through St Fergus.

We'd love to be your new energy partner. - Niccolo Gas and Power

We source electricity and gas for mid sized energy users.

niccolo.co.uk

That's a big drop and England has very little gas storage.

Allow me to explain....
Scotlands grid relies on the spinning reserves in large generators, same as any grid.
You see, renewables, such as solar and wind are generated through semiconductors, so they have no reactive power. In short, they cant be used for starting heavy loads, like pumps and motors (the very things your life relies on every day).

Its a sad sign of todays world.....poloticians and news sells by the best soundbites.
So, when SNP stand up and state Scotland generates more electricity than they use......well not strictly true!
Yes, in terms of energy they do.....but its power that is important.
The truth is, Scotland does generate energy....but poor quality, thats not much use for powering a grid. Handy for topping up......but thats about it.

Fun fact.....Solar and wind can make ONLY 20% of a grid (any grid) maximum before the grid becomes unstable.