Protecting yourself/your business from robbery

[Tombo46]

One of my main concerns about running a business this past couple of years has been the possibility of being robbed. My shop is in a nice area with a low crime rate however this past year we have seen 5 small businesses within 50 yards been "done over". 4 of them with guns and 1 of them with axes.

Living above my shop I'm constantly aware of any small noise downstairs and I'm instantly on edge. A few times I've done the dreaded "Walk downstairs" in my dressing gown etc only to find nothing. The other worry is that my other half works with me so it's really just me and her.

Someone attempted to rob me as I left my shop to go get a curry about 3 years ago. He pulled a knife on me and told me to hand over my wallet. Straight away I just ran down the road and fortunately he didn't persue me. Also a friend of mine was done over in his home by 3 men with claw hammers, threatened him and his wife (very calmly) and took him for £30,000.

Where does the law stand on defending yourself against an attack? I may feel differently if I have a gun in my face but I don't think my pride would let me just hand over my takings to some scumbag and logically I doubt they would shoot me knowing if they get caught they get done for murder. I'd probably feel different if my other half was being threatened thought.

Has anyone been in a situation like this or had to defend themselves? You see it in the papers etc that shopkeepers have been sent down for defending what is theirs but I would have thought cases like these are a rarity. If you beat a would be robber to a pulp to protect yourself it would be a sad day if you got sent down for it.

On a lighter note someone did ask my Grandma to empty the till some 15 years ago but she beat him with a large bike lock she kept under the till =D Maybe I should employ her for protection?

 

[Newchodge]

The law is simple, although the tabloids make it complicated. You are entitled to use reasonable force to protect yourself and your property. You are not allowed to 'punish'.

Reasonable force will vary depending on the circumstances. If someone is pointing a gun at your wife, swinging at their head with a pick axe would probably be reasonable. Continuing to hit them after they have dropped the gun and fallen to the ground is not reasonable.

If someone asks you to hand over your wallet, without offering any overt violence, hitting them once with your fist is probably reasonable. Chasing them down the street when they run away is not.

 

[Tombo46]

The law is simple, although the tabloids make it complicated. You are entitled to use reasonable force to protect yourself and your property. You are not allowed to 'punish'.

Reasonable force will vary depending on the circumstances. If someone is pointing a gun at your wife, swinging at their head with a pick axe would probably be reasonable. Continuing to hit them after they have dropped the gun and fallen to the ground is not reasonable.

If someone asks you to hand over your wallet, without offering any overt violence, hitting them once with your fist is probably reasonable. Chasing them down the street when they run away is not.

Yup that does make it sound pretty simple actually. I'm not one for "punishment" anyway to be honest, just wouldn't feel comfortable giving someone my takings!

I'm well aware that the smart thing to do would be to just hand it over however I'd be interested to hear how many of you would do this or how many would stand their ground? A lot of shop keepers I know are proud people and probably wouldn't just hand it all over.

 

[Newchodge]

I don't think anyone can know unless they have faced this. Some may feel they would be paralysed by fear, but the effect of adrenaline can be strange. Equally someone who knows they would fight back may find themselves unable to do so.

The nearest I came was when I have been followed by men at night. the first time I was 19, and being followed along a main road at 1 am. Knowing I had to turn off the main road I saw a man waiting at a bus stop and went and stood with him in the hope of safety. I didn't say a word or ask for help. Completely stupid, but it turned out OK.

Ten years later I was followed through deserted woods near a riverbank outside Durham. I heard the man get closer and then say excuse me. When I turned round he was 'interfering with himself'. I stamped towards him and yelled as loud as I could and he turned and ran.

Interestingly I never reported him to the police, partly because I felt ashamed! Also because there was six inches of snow on the ground, and when I told a (male) freind about it he burst out laughing and expressed admiration that the molester could get it up in those conditions. Not a very supportive reaction!

 

[Nuno]

My shop is in a nice area with a low crime rate however this past year we have seen 5 small businesses within 50 yards been "done over". 4 of them with guns and 1 of them with axes.

Jeez, what would you call a nasty area with a high crime rate? Downtown Damascus?

 

[tony84]

Guns, knives, claw hammers and you live in a nice area!
I live in Manchester (Well known for being a nice area ), lived in a pub which was done over 2-3 times for many thousands and not once did I see any weapons! The odd fight took place but it was usually glasses or bottles being used as weapons.

I think I would be setting up a cctv camera so you can see what is going on downstairs.

 

[Talay]

Your answer is that whatever the robber was doing was commensurate with the forced used to stop him, however much force that was.

You can't let old bill exercise their grey matter as they'll make 2+2=5 or anything other than 4.

 

[solent66]

Money is replaceable, you are not. If someone threatens extreme violence I would suggest handing over the money is the safest bet.

Do you have insurance? That should cover any financial losses, especially if you have CCTV to back up any claims of robbery.

There's probably not much you can do as far as stock is concerned (other than upgrading locks) but for cash:
Remove excess cash from the tills regularly so they won't get as much if they do hit. Consider a safe or cash box with a slot to put money through without needing to be opened.
Store cash in an appropriately rated safe. Insurance will pay out a maximum of (e.g.) £1000 on cash in a £1000 rated safe.
Keep records of how much cash is in the safe (to back up any claims) and *don't* keep the record in the safe (you don't want your records to get nicked with the safe.

Also, ask for advice from your insurers. They should be keen to see you reducing the risk of them having to pay out.

 

[fairdealworld]

Well if all shopkeepers just let thieves have what they want when they want we'd all soon be out of business and the public would have to start growing their own food, keeping their own sheep and weaving their own clothes from the wool and even then of course they'd find folk coming along and wanting to pinch their food, sheep and homespun clothing.

Yes you are insured but if people just claim and claim and claim, already high premiums go through the roof and become beyond the means of all except Sainsbury's and Harrod's and such. Yes your insurance company will advise you on measures but measures cost. Most of us already have burglar alarms, some of us have Red Care (eye watering costs for a small business). I used to have cameras in previous premises but found the footage to be of little practical use or at least that was what the police said after we were burgled. Someone from the insurance company visited us and advised after that incident but most of the advice was not related to the issue in question. The person advising wanted to know how often I sat and watched the footage - well obviously I and my assistant were mostly busy working and serving in the shop during the day and no I didn't stay awake at night watching the footage of the day gone by nor watching a current feed from the cameras just in case a burglar broke in. Large businesses can indeed do this sort of thing but it is beyond the scope of a small business.

I think small businesses must show at least some resistance or else we've really had it. In my previous trading area the local Post Office had a separate till for all the extras that most Post Offices need to sell to survive. On one particular day the Postmaster's wife was serving at that till when someone attempted to pick it up and run away with it (this is the sort of crime which is far more common than most people realise), this quiet headscarfed not very large middle aged Muslim lady had worked day and night with her husband building up the business and she fought like a tiger hanging on to the cash register for dear life while the strong young male thief tried to get it away from her. In the end with people in the shop realising what was going on the thief who'd expected a quick getaway let go and ran. The lady needed hospital treatment for sprains and shock but all the local shopkeepers deeply admired her action.

I tell those who work for me that their own safety and that of the customers comes first but I know perfectly well that while some of those who have worked in my shop will follow that advice while others would not. I'm in the sort of lucky position of being an older and arthritic person and I genuinely need the stick I always use when walking more than a few yards, but of course a stick is also a very handy weapon My current assistant is a knee high to a grasshopper ultra slender young woman, she's only half the size of her boyfriend but is clearly the boss in the relationship. While I was out of the shop for an hour she unhesitatingly confronted some shoplifters of the 'organised' type and phoned the police when the shoplifters hastily left the shop. What was I supposed to say to her? You shouldn't have done that? You should just have let them leave with valuable stock? She's young but she's not stupid she knows that the survival of the shop and with it a job she enjoys could be seriously affected by such incidents and interestingly enough rather than making her nervous the incident made her more confident. People react in such different ways to different things.

Safes are a bit of an issue. Insurance companies may - possibly - like them but if you live above the shop the obvious route for any thief is to use threats to get you to open the safe. I don't think the OP has children (?) but what would someone do if their spouse or kids were threatened? Plus insurance policies differ. Mine covers relatively small amounts of money left in the shop but rather oddly covers much larger sums of money if taken home by me or an authorised member of my staff. Or maybe it isn't odd but just an indication that overall domestic premises are less likely to be a target than are business premises?

N.B. No one should get a dog just for safety reasons but if you do happen to be a dog owner they are of course most useful animals. As I live some miles away I pay a neighbour to my shop to be my keyholder, this is mainly to deal with any false alarms which might disturb those living around the shop. I did say casually to the person concerned that if she needed to go into the shop to re-set the alarm, especially at night, she should always be sure to take her dog with her and she has always done so. The dog is a Rhodesian Ridgeback, a dog originally bred for lion hunting, a dog with a most impressive set of pearly white teeth. The dog is also a most affectionate creature and a total wuss! Nevertheless the wuss loves the owner and the owner's family in that peculiarly devoted canine way. I sleep sounder at nights knowing that if Red Care calls my keyholder and if she goes into the shop with the dog that if someone attacked her the wuss would almost certainly turn... I may throw my arms around the wuss and kiss it but I would not like to be the human who attacked her owner or her owner's family.

 

[Bob]

When I was very young - before many of you were born - I worked for a large amusement park in the cash office. It was at the time of the Mods and Rockers fights
We used to take a lot of cash. some of which we put in the safe. If we were attacked, we would happily have let them have that money and the money in the tills. The bulk of the money we used to wrap in parcels and put at the bottom of waste paper baskets on the basis that that would be the last place they would look and we would be allowing them to take "all" of the cash we had. Fortunately never had to find out whether the plan would work

 

[solent66]

Well if all shopkeepers just let thieves have what they want when they want

The OP was referring to robbers armed with guns and other lethal weapons. You're talking about shoplifters and other 'petty' criminals. Entirely different sets of people. I would urge my staff to consider their own safety first but encourage them to tackle shoplifters etc.

The person advising wanted to know how often I sat and watched the footage

No, you only need to look at the footage if an incident occurs. I've only had to look at footage once in the last three years.

Safes are a bit of an issue. Insurance companies may - possibly - like them but if you live above the shop the obvious route for any thief is to use threats to get you to open the safe.

That depends on the criminal. Some are violent some aren't. If you get a violent one, do what he says, if you get a peaceful one then there's no point giving him easy access, especially since it probably won't be insured.

Mine covers relatively small amounts of money left in the shop but rather oddly covers much larger sums of money if taken home by me

My insurer specifically told me than money outside the premises wasn't covered (except when doing a banking run) but on the premises was covered up to the rated value of the safe. When I asked them they also told me they had zero requirements for locks!

N.B. No one should get a dog just for safety reasons but if you do happen to be a dog owner they are of course most useful animals.

I don't think my mother's Bichon/Shitzu cross would be any help against criminals! If he meets someone he doesn't like he runs up to them barking and just walks around them wondering why they aren't running away in terror.