Pitching for a Payrise...employment rights.

[AnEmployee22]

My situation is that I consider myself to be a bit underpaid.​

2 years or so in now, I am one of the lowest paid in that company. Which given the work and amount I do, I think a raise would be fair.

Can I legally be dismissed or receive a pay cut for pitching for a pay rise?

My company do not like criticism, in particular outright or implied. The MD especially.

 

[billmccallum1957]

You will find its impossible to get a reasonable response to your question, nobody knows the answer.

(a) "They consider themselves to be underpaid" - most people consider themselves underpaid and the people they work for consider them overpaid.

(b) "2 Years or so" - is it 2 years or not. Less than 2 years and they can be booted for sneezing.

(c) "the lowest paid in that company" - is this because they are the least skilled or doing a manual task, or are they doing the same job as everyone else for the lower wage?

(d) "get the old heave ho or a pay cut for pitching for a pay rise" - see (a) above.

 

[AnEmployee22]

(a) It's low paid in my opinion. Otherwise I wouldn't go in for a pay rise.

(b) Just over 2 years in now.

(c) Wouldn't say that tbh.

(d) I thought it was quite clear.

You also glossed over my point about the MD being very touchy about criticism. That has a chilling effect.

Let me put it more clearly.

I have been there 2 years. What is the law on sacking or demoting me or cutting my pay if I present a case for a raise?

 

[billmccallum1957]

(a) It's low paid in my opinion. Otherwise I wouldn't go in for a pay rise.

(b) Just over 2 years in now.

(c) Wouldn't say that tbh.

(d) I thought it was quite clear.

You also glossed over my point about the MD being very touchy about criticism. That has a chilling effect.

Let me put it more clearly.

I have been there 2 years. What is the law on sacking or demoting me or cutting my pay if I present a case for a raise?

Unfortunately, nothing in your original post was clear!

Without knowing what the position is, what the pay rate is, how many people are doing the same job, what their rates of pay are, and a host of other rather important details, nobody can answer your question.

I didn't gloss over the comment about the MD, I ignored it, it's not relevant. Asking for a pay rise is not criticism, it's asking for a pay rise!

Best advice is "Man up" (or lady up) and ask for the pay rise, but be prepared to justify your value to the business, if you can't do that you don't stand much chance.

 

[Mr D]

Management can say 'no'. Then what?

You may think you are worth more than you are getting, if management doesn't agree your choices are stay for the same wage you are on now or leave.

MD comment, as Bill says, is irrelevant.
Either you are worth it in the eyes of the boss or you are not.

Your pay was what you accepted when you started just over 2 years ago, have you had any pay rise since?

 

[Mark T Jones]

Based on this and your other posts I’d suggest stop pitying yourself and start valuing yourself.

Go to your line manager. Outline why you are worth more based on your contribution and other roles within the company and the industry.

Be polite but firm. It isn’t a battle.

 

[paulears]

Many moons ago, my boss )(who I had lots of time for) - the owner of the company called me into the office and said that he'd made a mistake. He'd given one of the team, a friend of mine, his annual pay increase early because he'd just bought a house and needed a little more money to get the mortgage. Trouble was, he'd forgotten and given him another in the annual pay rise. Meaning that from that point onwards, he'd always be ahead of me because it was his mistake - but he couldn't afford to give me extra, because it was bound to get out and everyone would want it. He said he was sorry, and the two of us were in his eyes on the same level. He said he had to tell me, because we'd always been the same up until then. He needn't have told me, and I had no right to an extra pay rise - but I'm glad he did, and I understood. When I worked in jobs with annual increments even for the hopeless or incompetent I felt that less fair somehow.

Once I became a boss - I made sure as much as I could that pay remained private. In my current role, where I get given a bunch of people to work for me, they never know how much they are on compared to others, and chatting with one of the TV celebs she mentioned the same - she doesn't want to know what the others get because they might be on more, but it doesn't matter as long as she gets what she feels is right.

You said you felt underpaid. ask for a raise because of X, Y and Z, and if you aren't as valued as you think they'll hopefully explain what you need to do.

 

[Toby Willows]

Almost very certainly you are paid what the business owners think you are worth. Valued staff are paid appropriately.

 

[Mark T Jones]

I wouldn’t agree with Toby on this, not least because ‘worth’ is incredibly subjective

In many environments it is really the case that the squeaky wheel gets the oil. Most employers couldn’t quantify what a person is worth - whether they agree with your valuation is down to many factors, however if you can present a case based around the value you bring, rather than ‘employment rights’ your chances of success will be greatly improved

 

[AnEmployee22]

Hi. Thank you all for the responses, I shall address them in turn.

@billmccallum1957 I am the sole person in my department and I am rather lowly paid. I have no idea if my bosses read or post on this site, so I post with extreme caution as they may deem this to be gross misconduct. 2 years service and I have basically trained myself. I intend to put forward a solid case based on business reasons in the coming weeks. I started at 15k, now on 16k.

@Mr D I know they can say no. My concern is avoiding a demotion, sacking or pay cut as a result of it...if they do say no, then I will have much to ponder.

@Mark T Jones Pitying myself, maybe that is a bit strong but yeah good idea. I will follow your advice though for sure.

@paulears That's a great shout. I intend to ask how I can bring more value to the roles, to the business as part of my preparation.

@Toby Willows Value can be subjective..in particular when a role isn't the easiest to quantify in financial terms and it's a one person department.

Perhaps I and others were cross purposes in a few respects. I agree about value being subjective.

A bit I feel I should perhaps clarify is about employment rights... The pay rise idea is nothing to do with rights. Or entitlements. The reason I have mentioned the 2 in the same thread is my concerns about sacking, demotion or a paycut in the event my proposal is rejected.

By the way, MD and their views about perceived criticism being irrelevant? I wish it were so but given the nature of some of the dismissals seen in last year? I'm not so sure.

 

[Mr D]

Good luck with it.

 

[MBE2017]

I agree with Mark T Jones, if you don’t ask you won’t get, but be prepared for an adverse reaction depending on how you ask.

That said, considering your money has been increased from £15 to £16k, you have had an increase already, around a seven percent increase. Not huge, but many have received nothing in the last few years.

Basically £16k pa is a starter type salary IMO, entry level schooleaver low skilled for most of the country, only you and your boss can decide on your actual value. At the moment it is an employer in the driving seat in the majority of cases.

 

[The Byre]

You are going to negotiate for extra pay. All negotiation is about being prepared.* The better prepared you are for every possible counter argument and position, the better the outcome will be for you. It really is that simple!

When you have finished being prepared, prepare again - you have forgotten something!

Then practice your arguments and positions and imagine each and every possible counter argument (such as "We can't afford it right now!" - that's what they all say!) Rehearse and rehearse again each and every possible outcome and every possible counter position.

And be prepared to walk away from the job! Every time anyone negotiates about anything, they must be prepared to opt for a total turn down and walk away. If you are buying a used car, you can always say, no, that's too expensive and walk away and get a different car from somebody else! There are other jobs out there for you and I am sure some of them are far better paid than that one!
______________

*Can somebody please explain that fact to Dave Davis!

 

[AnEmployee22]

Thanks for the responses.

The monitoring of my spreadsheet, a new spreadsheet happening again. So that weakens my position.

My role is hard to quantity in financial terms. They take it for granted a little I feel. Tbh I am taking a risk even going on here in my view, gross misconduct??

 

[Mr D]

Thanks for the responses.

The monitoring of my spreadsheet, a new spreadsheet happening again. So that weakens my position.

My role is hard to quantity in financial terms. They take it for granted a little I feel. Tbh I am taking a risk even going on here in my view, gross misconduct??

No role should be that hard to quantify. You make money for the company or you support some other people in making money for the company or you provide support services that enable the company to operate.
The company already quantifies your contribution, they have kept you on over 2 years and cost them over £35k.
If you think you are worth say £18k a year then prove it. Will someone making the company £20k a year in sales be worth it? No. Will someone making the company £10 million a year in sales be worth it? Likely worth more!

 

[Mr D]

You are going to negotiate for extra pay. All negotiation is about being prepared.*
*Can somebody please explain that fact to Dave Davis!

To be fair to Dave he has a bad job, he has changing briefs with input from a committee of 600 plus people and the media spinning everything said.
Then again even government contracts that have been signed can have changed imposed by MPs, sometimes thousands of changes.

 

[AllUpHere]

Thanks for the responses.

The monitoring of my spreadsheet, a new spreadsheet happening again. So that weakens my position.

My role is hard to quantity in financial terms. They take it for granted a little I feel. Tbh I am taking a risk even going on here in my view, gross misconduct??

How would your employer ever find out you were on here?

Edit. Unless of course you are actually posting on here whilst actually at work? If that's the case, you are probably too stupid to deserve a payrise.

 

[STDFR33]

How would your employer ever find out you were on here?

Edit. Unless of course you are actually posting on here whilst actually at work? If that's the case, you are probably too stupid to deserve a payrise.

Quickly closes my internet explorer.

 

[AnEmployee22]

Lol. Turn it in on that.

Oddly enough, no I am not- and never would- post from a work computer. If I did, the sack would be more than fair

How would my employer know? Supposing they read or had an account on this forum...and as the company is expanding, read about HR.

In the event I gave too much away, maybe they could guess. Or have a strong suspicion. Can't be too careful.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

List, in detail, all the quantifiable ways you bring value to the company and help your boss to make more money. You need to showcase your value and worth.

Time on the job, whether you pay is equal and now hard you work are unlikely to fly. 2 years isn't very long, suggesting unequal pay has an accusatory tone, you are paid by the hour, and effort in employment rarely correlates with pay alone (otherwise many manual labour jobs would pay much better).

Once you've created the list, take a good look at it. If you find it's not that impressive, think twice about asking for a raise.

In regards to your legal question, hopefully an HR specialist will be along shortly. After two years though, you do have some safeguards.

Good luck.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

If you tell them that you are just doing your job, they will probably say that's what I am paying you to do

If on the other hand you explain how well you are doing the job, the improvements if any you have made that helps the company, or that you feel you are ready to take on more responsibility or take on more work, then you may convince them to give you more dosh

If you never ask you will never get anything

 

[Toby Willows]

In many environments it is really the case that the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

Any decent business owner/manager won’t be oiling that squeaky wheel. They’ll be replacing it with a shiny new wheel that works as it should as doesn’t keep needing attention.

 

[AnEmployee22]

Thank you all. Constructive stuff, and I have started to put together an economic case.

The monitoring continues apace though... To the extent that manager said 'X is your top priority today'. Spreadsheet clearly being watched in real time...there are people who would respond quite nastily to these levels but not me.

 

[Toby Willows]

Thank you all. Constructive stuff, and I have started to put together an economic case.

The monitoring continues apace though... To the extent that manager said 'X is your top priority today'. Spreadsheet clearly being watched in real time...there are people who would respond quite nastily to these levels but not me.

Why would anyone respond “nastily” for their work being monitored? Very odd remark indeed, all employers monitor their employees work, just look at your next Amazon delivery tracking to see how employees are monitored these days.

Do you not like working for the hours you are paid?

 

[Mr D]

Thank you all. Constructive stuff, and I have started to put together an economic case.

The monitoring continues apace though... To the extent that manager said 'X is your top priority today'. Spreadsheet clearly being watched in real time...there are people who would respond quite nastily to these levels but not me.

Pretty much every job you ever have you will be monitored. How else is your boss going to know you are doing the work and (at some point) do annual or promotion evaluations if they don't monitor you?
In this instance you are aware of it.
You WILL have been monitored since you started, just some ways you won't necessarily be aware of.

 

[AnEmployee22]

Well, I have had a bit more time to think over my last post.

@Toby Willows assuming that your name is in fact this... No objection at all on one level. However if you think it's okay as part of a pattern of singling out or similar, then either you are related to all or went to the same seminars on workers rights, as our MD.

@Mr D I agree. Not if it's just me who's work the manager is monitoring in real time though...that isn't great.

Promotion evaluations, appraisals or similar, pay reviews... At my employer?? Never!

Head of HR of a company of 200 seems to be a guy in his early 20s, from a background of being a chef!

 

[Toby Willows]

Well, I have had a bit more time to think over my last post.

@Toby Willows assuming that your name is in fact this... No objection at all on one level. However if you think it's okay as part of a pattern of singling out or similar, then either you are related to all or went to the same seminars on workers rights, as our MD.

@Mr D I agree. Not if it's just me who's work the manager is monitoring in real time though...that isn't great.

Promotion evaluations, appraisals or similar, pay reviews... At my employer?? Never!

Head of HR of a company of 200 seems to be a guy in his early 20s, from a background of being a chef!

@AnEmployee22, assuming your name is in fact this. Please explain what the problem is with your work being monitored because I truly don’t understand. Employees will have their work monitored to various degrees due to a number of factors eg new employee will be monitored far more than a long serving one with a proven history. If you are under performing you will be closely monitored to find out why and what retraining is required. If you are out performing your colleagues you’ll be monitored to see where your strengths are with a view to a appropriate promotion.

 

[AnEmployee22]

@AnEmployee22, assuming your name is in fact this. Please explain what the problem is with your work being monitored because I truly don’t understand. Employees will have their work monitored to various degrees due to a number of factors eg new employee will be monitored far more than a long serving one with a proven history. If you are under performing you will be closely monitored to find out why and what retraining is required. If you are out performing your colleagues you’ll be monitored to see where your strengths are with a view to a appropriate promotion.

Hi Toby- thanks for the measured response. More so than mine, unfortunately from my perspective! Ha, your name is probably more likely to be real than mine...

For me, the problem with the monitoring, isn't so much the monitoring as the context...

• Nearly 2 years when it started, don't think that's so new. Given we have quite a churn, doubly so...
• I'm not convinced I'm under-performing, but if I am I'd prefer to know about it sooner rather than later so I can work on improving my performance! Instead of some persistent pointless, annoying spreadsheet watching- this guy is a director FFS, has he nothing significantly more important to be getting on with??
• Out-performing...it's a very difficult thing to quantify, my role is the only one of its kind in the company- so how do you quantify? I work very hard, but I don't see it as directly comparable. Promotion? Nah, don't see it, not for me. Besides which, as a company- see my post again- we don't really do things conventionally. Which is good- but bad too!

Ultimately, I need to look for other work I think, what really bugs me on this is unless he is monitoring others in our broader dept, then it's singling me out for whatever reason. Combine that with no feedback or it is very seldom that I receive feedback, and it is little wonder that I have a problem with some of these methods of micro-management.

I genuinely believe someone there might be trying to make me quit, to force me to resign. Which is why I get a bit prickly sometimes about monitoring and subsequent defences of it...because monitoring of me like this, feels like part of a pattern. (Not the defences or reasons on here, but the monitoring by my employer, obviously).