NLW Increase 2024

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    From 1 April 2024 there will be: A £1.02 (or 9.8%) increase to the NLW for those aged 21 and over - from £10.42 to £11.44 per hour. A £1.11 (or 14.8%) increase to the National Minimum Wage (NMW) for those aged 18-20 - from £7.49 to £8.60 per hour.

    What are peoples thoughts on this? I've spoken to some people who feel it is a good move and others that are already finding it difficult who feel it will force redundancies.

    Will you apply it to all staff to maintain differentials?
     
    Excellent, should be more.
    It will reduce the state benefits bill and put more of the cost of employment on employers. For some it will mean their business will not survive. Those who can afford it may maintain differentials, but I expect that not to be universal.
     
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    2 other thoughts.

    I always call the figures like this NMW to avoid confusion with the voluntary real living wage. The tory government chose to call this a living wage some years ago. Calling it that does not make it so.

    There is also the extension of the highest rate to those aged 21 and over (currently it applies only to those aged 23 and over).
     
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    I was talking to a local businessman just last week and he said to be able to afford it he will have to let one of the younger members of staff go. He says it is a shame as they are a good worker, but feels that his customers should not foot the bill with price rises. Whether he will go through with it or not I have no idea, but it will probably be in the thoughts of many business owners.
     
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    Morally I agree with it; people should be able to earn a salary that enables them to survive in the cost of living. From a business perspective, I'm not sure the timing is right, but I also don't know when there is a good time, because not only are the domestic costs rising but so are the business costs, and it's a self-fulfilling spiral of doom as one cost rises it makes the other rise and I fear it only ends with a recession.
     
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    but feels that his customers should not foot the bill with price rises.
    That's what most people/businesses believe and with smaller businesses is not generally the case. as the implication on margins is minimal. If a business cannot afford a cost increase of £50 a week (assuming one member of staff) it really needs to look at its model.

    Shrewd businesses can use this as a positive 'We pay our staff the NLW' etc.

    As for the NMW, I am always confused about why living costs are thought to be lower for 18-20 year olds than older people! (...waiting for the 'but they live at home so their costs are less' response!).
     
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    That's what most people/businesses believe and with smaller businesses is not generally the case. as the implication on margins is minimal. If a business cannot afford a cost increase of £50 a week (assuming one member of staff) it really needs to look at its model.

    Shrewd businesses can use this as a positive 'We pay our staff the NLW' etc.

    As for the NMW, I am always confused about why living costs are thought to be lower for 18-20 year olds than older people! (...waiting for the 'but they live at home so their costs are less' response!).
    It varies significantly from sector to sector.

    2 of the hardest- hit sectors are hospitality and care, where the main overheads are property, utilities and staff.

    Hospitality- particularly bars and restaurants have also been hit by surging food and drink prices. , plus NMW doesn't just raise costs of lower- paid staff, it ripples through all grades proportionately

    Care is the most interesting one The State funded part is under extreme pressure - yet the state have to support it. Where will that go?
     
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    Morally I agree with it; people should be able to earn a salary that enables them to survive in the cost of living. From a business perspective, I'm not sure the timing is right, but I also don't know when there is a good time, because not only are the domestic costs rising but so are the business costs, and it's a self-fulfilling spiral of doom as one cost rises it makes the other rise and I fear it only ends with a recession.
    With Covid and everything else in the world, the economy is a bit of a s*** show at the moment so we should be pushing through things like this and take all the pain now, rather than drag it out.

    Forget tax cuts, no one needs them and I doubt many votes will be bought by them.

    There's too much "hospitality". I'm quite happy when I see another celebrity chain restaurant go to the wall. Leave it to local pubs, restaurants, etc.

    More money in care would be a good thing, too.
     
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    It varies significantly from sector to sector.

    2 of the hardest- hit sectors are hospitality and care, where the main overheads are property, utilities and staff.

    Hospitality- particularly bars and restaurants have also been hit by surging food and drink prices. , plus NMW doesn't just raise costs of lower- paid staff, it ripples through all grades proportionately

    Care is the most interesting one The State funded part is under extreme pressure - yet the state have to support it. Where will that go?
    Have you seen this appalling proposal? https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/jan/25/warehouse-disabled-people-bristol-city-council
     
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    All well and good saying "good. it should be more". It absolutely baffles me, where do people think these kind of increases come from? Who does it ultimately hit? In my opinion, the small business owner, or the public when they pass it on. Which in turn affects the small business owner when the public reduce their shopping there.

    From opening our shop in August 2019 to closing it in May 2022, we witnessed NMW go from £7.83 to £9.50. Over a 20% increase in less than 3 years. The final increase, another 7% in April 22 was one of the final straws for us. We were a small business with one full time and 2 part time members of staff. We worked on paying 100-110 hours total labour per week. In other words over £9000 per year difference for us to find. I don't think that's an insignificant sum to any small business.

    I have to add that as much as it frustrates me, I am not saying i have an answer nor do I expect people to be working for a pittance. I just think these sweeping adjustments make great headlines, but can have a devastating impact on the small business owner, particularly in hospitality as mentioned above. The "self-fulfilling spiral of doom" is an appropriate description IMO!

    It's a little like the "insurance companies can't charge less for women" scenario - did they really think insurers would just reduce every male premium? Likewise "you can't unfairly charge a processing fee for using a credit card over a debit card or cash". Did retailers remove the credit card surcharge? Of course they didn't! They just added the same admin fee for everybody regardless of what method they used.

    As I say, it all just seems a bit ideologic with no thought to where the impact of these things will actually be seen.

    Shrewd businesses can use this as a positive 'We pay our staff the NLW' etc.

    As for the NMW, I am always confused about why living costs are thought to be lower for 18-20 year olds than older people! (...waiting for the 'but they live at home so their costs are less' response!).

    To your first point - we owned a bakers and sandwich shop. I can guarantee nobody would give a shiny sh*te about us paying the NLW based on the complaints we got when we put a pie up 5p!

    Agree on your second point - my first ever "proper" employer working in a pub at 18 paid everybody full NMW no matter how old they were and I'll never forget him saying "I'm asking you all and expecting you all to do exactly the same job regardless of your age. If that's what you do, that's what you get paid for". It's stuck with me a long time!

    With Covid and everything else in the world, the economy is a bit of a s*** show at the moment so we should be pushing through things like this and take all the pain now, rather than drag it out.

    Forget tax cuts, no one needs them and I doubt many votes will be bought by them.

    There's too much "hospitality". I'm quite happy when I see another celebrity chain restaurant go to the wall. Leave it to local pubs, restaurants, etc.

    Do these chain restaurants not employ local people then?
     
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    2 other thoughts.

    I always call the figures like this NMW to avoid confusion with the voluntary real living wage. The tory government chose to call this a living wage some years ago. Calling it that does not make it so.

    There is also the extension of the highest rate to those aged 21 and over (currently it applies only to those aged 23 and over).
    Totally, I've spoken to people who thought the NLW was voluntary. It would be better to refer to them as minimum wage with a bracket for age.
     
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    I was talking to a local businessman just last week and he said to be able to afford it he will have to let one of the younger members of staff go. He says it is a shame as they are a good worker, but feels that his customers should not foot the bill with price rises. Whether he will go through with it or not I have no idea, but it will probably be in the thoughts of many business owners.
    I've had a similar conversation with someone who has 23 workshop operatives, the main problem he has is the differentials throughout the company
     
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    Inevitable outcome of freezing (or shrinking in real terms) the financial provision to pay for a service which is growing in both people supported and per capita cost - when it is treated as a "business" not an essential healthcare service then business concepts like economy of scale take precedence over care concepts like quality of life
     
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    To your first point - we owned a bakers and sandwich shop. I can guarantee nobody would give a shiny sh*te about us paying the NLW based on the complaints we got when we put a pie up 5p!
    If your customers are the ones who won't pay an extra 5p for a pie then they are the ones who will make their own lunch as soon as the economy is in strife - you need to attract the muppets who pay for an ITSU/Pret overpriced sandwich.

    When i worked in town i mainly made my own BUT if i was buying lunch i would go to Sweeney's pie shop in Reading as I could get a really good hand made pie for the same price as a rubbish over hyped Pret sandwich - Sweeneys has been going decades, is an institution in Reading and I would hope makes a profit for it's owners but as it is just down from the courts it has a lot of lawyers etc as customers who allow them to charge £3.50 for a pie and £2 for a sausage roll yet always have a queue until they sell out.

    You need to sell on quality not being 5p less than a tesco meal deal
     
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    I'd ask the people who think the rise is unfair or unjustified - what do you think is a fair wage for what your NMW/NLW employees do? And could you survive on that wage?

    If they have to claim benefits to survive, then it's you, me and the rest of the taxpayer base that pays for those benefits, and everyone has less money to buy your goods and services.
     
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    From opening our shop in August 2019 to closing it in May 2022, we witnessed NMW go from £7.83 to £9.50. Over a 20% increase in less than 3 years. The final increase, another 7% in April 22 was one of the final straws for us. We were a small business with one full time and 2 part time members of staff. We worked on paying 100-110 hours total labour per week. In other words over £9000 per year difference for us to find. I don't think that's an insignificant sum to any small business.

    That works out to £625 a month, after corporation tax is taken into account. If that amount makes that much of a difference, I would question the overall viability of the business model. Now, I grant that the rise in the other costs will also significantly affect you, but those happen in every business. You either restructure your pricing, reduce your costs, or you go out of business. Supermarkets have done it, as have many other businesses.

    I also understand that it's one thing to have it gradually happen over time, and another to happen all at once, but if your margins are strong enough, it gives you time to find solutions or weather the storm. If they're not, the business model may simply not be viable.

    That's my personal opinion. Too many businesses are living too close to the edge.
     
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    I'd ask the people who think the rise is unfair or unjustified - what do you think is a fair wage for what your NMW/NLW employees do? And could you survive on that wage?

    If they have to claim benefits to survive, then it's you, me and the rest of the taxpayer base that pays for those benefits, and everyone has less money to buy your goods and services.
    And I wonder how many company owners will give up their shinny new cars in favour of paying the staff.
     
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    That works out to £625 a month, after corporation tax is taken into account. If that amount makes that much of a difference, I would question the overall viability of the business model. Now, I grant that the rise in the other costs will also significantly affect you, but those happen in every business. You either restructure your pricing, reduce your costs, or you go out of business. Supermarkets have done it, as have many other businesses.

    I also understand that it's one thing to have it gradually happen over time, and another to happen all at once, but if your margins are strong enough, it gives you time to find solutions or weather the storm. If they're not, the business model may simply not be viable.

    That's my personal opinion. Too many businesses are living too close to the edge.

    I'm not going to disagree with you, in all fairness. In the case of our business, yes it was one of many issues - certainly one that didn't help though!

    I think my frustration is the sometimes very flippant manner of "it should be more / make it xyz". This came up in a debate outside the local boozer not long ago, someone mentioned the push for £15 NMW and was insistent "they should just do it, do it now". My point still stands that it still has to come from somewhere and it will affect businesses somehow. As like you say whether that involves restructuring pricing (knock on effect on sales and/or the consumer?), reducing costs (reducing quality? knock on effect for the consumer..... or simply reducing staff nos / hours?)...... it can't just ALWAYS magically appear. I appreciate there are some instances where the owners/big wigs/shareholders can afford to take a cut, but not necessarily always. There can be this view that anyone owning a business is making a fortune at the expense of everybody else whilst doing nothing for the privilege, and I don't think that's always right nor fair.

    But, as I started off by saying.... I do have my frustrations with certain views on it, but I don't have the answer. I went to the gym last night and was mulling over this thread whilst in the gym for probably a good hour, and another half hour or so with my thoughts to myself sat in the sauna and steam room. And after all that thinking, I can confidently say that..... I still don't have the answer ?
     
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    Some employers may finance this increase by recruiting more part timers.

    This can remove the obligation to contribute to auto enrolled pensions and remove any NI costs.
     
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    someone mentioned the push for £15 NMW and was insistent "they should just do it, do it now". My point still stands that it still has to come from somewhere and it will affect businesses somehow.
    I'm with them on that. Lets take the s*** now whilst the economy is borked and then set about the recovery. Leave the mess to the other lot who think they will soon be in power.

    Good businesses will survive either by already paying close or above the new level, taking it on the chin or having a good enough offering that their customer base can stand price rises. Poor businesses, well...
     
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    It varies significantly from sector to sector.

    2 of the hardest- hit sectors are hospitality and care, where the main overheads are property, utilities and staff.

    Hospitality- particularly bars and restaurants have also been hit by surging food and drink prices. , plus NMW doesn't just raise costs of lower- paid staff, it ripples through all grades proportionately

    Care is the most interesting one The State funded part is under extreme pressure - yet the state have to support it. Where will that go?
    One of my hospitality clients increased their minimum wage employees (obviously) but, interestingly did not touch the wages of the supervisors. In the year since then they have recruited new wupervisors @ £1 per hour less than the existing ones. There appears to have been no effect on staff turnover.
     
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    Lowest wage in our place is £1.87/hr above the new rate so technically not affecting us. In reality the differentials to the actual NMW are getting lower, we'd have been £3-4 above NMW a few years ago. One could argue thats a success of NMW, the other way of looking at it, NMW might become THE wage for more and more of the economy's workers (particularly if it gets pegged to 75% median pay as is mooted). We're giving people about £1500-1750 a year rises this year (on average) and yet NMW increase on a full time wage is c. £2000. So creeping closer. I suspect we will have another decent increment next year (am expecting 45-50p/hr). And its a lot of money if you employ a decent amount of people. £2K for 25-50 staff is one heck of a bill for companies that aren't huge and make reasonable if not spectacular profits.
     
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