Michael Jackson tickets - when to sell?
- Thread starter movietub
- Start date
- Original Poster
- #43
Since you decided to insult me, may I ask what part of what I said was idiotic?
My point was quite a simple and universal one. If someone buys something and it becomes worth more to someone else than it is worth to the current owner a sale takes place. It's no doubt what triggered the idea of 'trading' in the first place.
OR was it my comment about fans needing to try harder to beat the touts? Well if the fans care about tickets more than the touts why are there any left for the touts?
No need for further insults - I am genuinly quite interested in understanding why touting is such an evil thing, if people cared so much it just wouldn't be possible.
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Are you really going to play the naive card?
Your instant denials earlier indicate you were full aware that it's quite a dark subject - and totally frowned upon by the industry.
There are plenty ways to trade tickets to genuine fans at face value. By touting your ticket at an inflated price only encourages the problem.
Ticket touts rip off genuine fans. They take advantage of the fan who's only interest is to see the show.
By claiming that ticket with the sole intention to sell it on to a genuine fan is bad form, and not welcomed from anyone with any decency.
It doesn't surprise me being the UKBF that someone would simple it down to supply and demand. You might argue an antique dealer or wall street trader does the same with their commodity, which is fine - but no one is cheated nor money extorted out of "entertainment".
Tickets for these shows should be purchased by genuine fans, and folk going in to rip them off isn't very nice. "So the world of business isn't meant to be nice?" Maybe so, but why in the entertainment industry have there been so many campaigns for legislation to outlaw touting? Because everyone full aware that ripping off music fans is for arseholes.
Yes, I'm passionate about it.
Your instant denials earlier indicate you were full aware that it's quite a dark subject - and totally frowned upon by the industry.
There are plenty ways to trade tickets to genuine fans at face value. By touting your ticket at an inflated price only encourages the problem.
Ticket touts rip off genuine fans. They take advantage of the fan who's only interest is to see the show.
By claiming that ticket with the sole intention to sell it on to a genuine fan is bad form, and not welcomed from anyone with any decency.
It doesn't surprise me being the UKBF that someone would simple it down to supply and demand. You might argue an antique dealer or wall street trader does the same with their commodity, which is fine - but no one is cheated nor money extorted out of "entertainment".
Tickets for these shows should be purchased by genuine fans, and folk going in to rip them off isn't very nice. "So the world of business isn't meant to be nice?" Maybe so, but why in the entertainment industry have there been so many campaigns for legislation to outlaw touting? Because everyone full aware that ripping off music fans is for arseholes.
Yes, I'm passionate about it.
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- Original Poster
- #45
Well don't let your passion cloud logic any more.
I have stated more than once that i bought the ticket becasue I wanted to see the show.
Therefore why would i want to sell it at face value? at face value i want to see MJ! In fact I would have paid upto £300 that the ticket is currently worth to see him. I am a fan.
However I'm aware there is a real possibility that the ticket may be worth more soon, and I would not have paid more. If someone else want it for £400, £500, £600 in a weeks time then I would rather have the money. Thats not my business head, thats common sense. I can only afford to pay so much or let a certain size chance to make money back go! I'm talking personal finance now, not business.
I don't understand why you think the entertainment industry is somehow worth more or needs protecting from profit more than the antiques industry (your analogy). The person that made a dining table in 1909 sold it for what he felt it was worth at the time, if someone hangs onto it for a while and re-sells at a profit the maker doesnt jump up and down - niether does anyone that 'nearly' bought the same table new.
No doubt it is annoying to want tickets, not get them and find out touts did. But what did the touts do that the music fans were inacapable of?
It just seems that the touts ultimately make more of an effective effort to get tickets. Otherwise how could they? Any hardcore fan should be able to predict the demand for tickets and make equally as clever steps as the touts.
For example would you pay £500 for 2 MJ tickets right now, also a free Iphone paid contract for 12 months thrown into the deal?
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Oh yeah - it's okay isn't it. He's only got the mind of a young child himself.
CALLING ALL LAWYERS - If you are representing a paedo, just tell the court they have the mind of a child and it'll be okay. Alternatively, only represent world famous musicians who are mentally unstable.
CMCP, I personally feel you're being rather rude to movietub. I for one (which you will hate) have no issue with touts.
I buy from touts, up to the value I feel is reasonable for that ticket.
Touts are simply buyers and sellers of products.
When the Wii Fits were running out prior to Christmas and people were buying them to sell them on at profit, was that wrong?
In my opinion no. If you can find a cheap supplier of something (in this case tickets) that you know you can mark up for profit, why wouldn't you do it?
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M
MikeD08
I have to agree completely with that. If I want tickets for a concert (in the Manchester area) I have a chap who can, more often than not, supply. He usually adds 20-25% to the face value. If he has no tickets I'll simply rock up to the venue and hang around for a while and haggle a bit with the touts. If that fails wait for the concert to start then 10minutes later the touts tend to drop their prices.
Also, most touts hold a clutch of tickets on show so you should be able to judge how many they have. Keep an eye on Mr Tout and see he how many he shifts then leap in and bag one just before they go (it's a bit like ebay, bid at the last minute) or as I mentioned earlier, if he hasn't sold them all simply wait for the show to start.
This seems to work for me
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R
Robs
I general i am in a agreement with you that tickets are like any other commodity, The reason why most people have a problem with touts that flog tickets on ebey and stand outside venues in general is because they are not legal business's, they don't pay tax, they don't have codes of conduct, The money to buy the tickets is from drug related money.
We don't need a ban, We need regulation, a licensing system with codes of conduct. making sure they are paying taxes and making a contribution to society. i think would also cut down on the amount of forged tickets
I recently qualified as a mortgage advisor have to follow rules set by the fsa, the rules are called mcob in these rules it states i must not charge over excessively than the average in my locality. if i do then the consumer can complain to the ombudsman.
I have had to by from a tout as he got in the que before me, i paid double the face value, i did not like it but hey i needed to go and see my guitar legend but if the tout as said £300 twenty times the face value i would of laughed and walked away.
but i do think either local licensing legislation or national legislation is the answer maybe with a percentage cap or multiply cap on how much more can be charged cap the face value.
By doing this you are creating a new industry that sends coffers back into society by the means of taxes.
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Correct I absolutely loathe the thought.
But hopefully Movietub will accept my apology for calling him an idiot - I was a bit quick to jump.
In all my years attending gigs, putting on gigs, playing in bands and through all the people I've met both grassroots and high industry level no one has ever had a kind word to say about ticket touting because the bottom line is to rip off music fans, and that's not what it's about.
That's all I can say to sum up my feelings about it. Not everything in life is about business.
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I disagree. The touts are not there to rip off music fans - they are there to make profit.
This, I completely agree with and in that respect they do not go about things in the right way.
Is it? Where is the proof for that? Perhaps some of it is, but to label them all in the same way is rather sweeping.
I would like to suggest that the real reason is that at grassroots level, they are not given a fair percentage of the RRP and I completely agree that that is wrong - although not the fault of the touts.
At high industry level I suspect they suddenly think, 'Damn, we could have sold these higher and made more profit and given a little bit more (but not much) to the performers.' Again, not the fault of the touts.
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R
Robs
its been widely documented by police and government that vast majority are and have connections with drugs and drugs money. I have first hand knowledge as i have worked in venues in Manchester as security, The touts where known gang members to police and to us. They also peddled their drugs outside.
I am not talking about the weekend Arthur Daley's who wanna earn a quick buck for their beer money.
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so is he still going to do it???? Alot of people are knackered at 50 even when they're healthy, he's not exactly in the best of health - far from it........
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...n-managed-TWO-45-rehearsals-65m-concerts.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbi...n-managed-TWO-45-rehearsals-65m-concerts.html
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- Original Poster
- #60
The business part of me responded to the news by saying 'yes, I should have sold the tickets!'.
But I liked MJ a long time before I was old enough to care about profit and loss reports... This is very sad indeed. And now mainstream networks are running the story it seems certain its true.
Somehow I sort of knew the concert wouldn't happen but I never thought he would die. Shocking and sad.
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- Original Poster
- #63
On another note what affect must this be having on O2? One assumes they are insured one way or another but they already paid 50m to a guy whos estate was 100m in debt! Not to mention the 200m tickets that will need refunding.
Thats quite a gap for the cash flow to bridge!
I love the O2 arena and always thought it was a brilliant use for the dome - The fact they got MJ lined up was a success in itself. I'm sure others have tried very hard over recent years.
Thats quite a gap for the cash flow to bridge!
I love the O2 arena and always thought it was a brilliant use for the dome - The fact they got MJ lined up was a success in itself. I'm sure others have tried very hard over recent years.
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Everyone should be insured to the hilt. I can see there being a lot of underwriters desperately looking for loopholes this morning. But those who bought touted tickets at a premium will be stuffed.
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- Original Poster
- #65
I imagine the insurance premium itself was pretty massive. Not to mention they probably can't get a penny from the insurers until Jacksons estate is dealt with and they know whats coming back from that (I would guess not much). He does own a large share in his own back catalogue though so long term he is worth more than he owed. LOOOOOONG term that is.
I felt I was taking a chance when I bought the two tickets - Not quite the risk O2 took of course! Not that anyone ever saw the por guy dying weeks bafore hand. Surreal.
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- Original Poster
- #67
Not a bad plan that.Despite being sad its somehow typical Jackson. Somehow always more dramatic a headline than the press could have hoped for. I'm enjoying the music on every radio station today - even radio 4 had a quick play of Jackson five! I bet it took them a while to find that.
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Just doing a quick search on tickets I came across this thread so I thought I would add my two penneth on the positive virtues of being a tout.
I have supplied many many tickets to events which are sold out and many many to ones which arent even sold out but people would prefer to pay a premium to have me 'queue' for them instead.
I dont deprive fans of tickets, quite the opposite. If every ticket was sold to a fan then there would still be fans that were unlucky enough to get seats when it sells out or those who would HAVE to sit at the back with a crap view.
I believe I provide choice. You can choose to sit in line at 7am with me or you can buy off me.
And its a gamble. A real gamble. Tickets I thought would sell well havent and those I didnt think would have. I have often sold tickets at half the face value.
I have also sold many tickets which are still readily available via TM etc at an inflated price. I guess thats not knowing where to look for tickets in the first place and just googling?
IMHO the real problem (apart from unregulated touts/scammers) is the music industry itself. Apart from MJ which was massively hyped, 95% of bands do not annouce tours well in advance, only some will give prewarning on their website and even then you'd need to be registered for mail or check every day for news. These are the true fans I guess and they do get rewarded becuase they can be first in line. But more often than not the first you know about a tour is in the Sunday magazine and guess what? By then its either sold out or all thats left is right at the back. Which is where I come in....
I've had crappy emails from people slaggin what I do but I have twice as many more thanking me.
I have supplied many many tickets to events which are sold out and many many to ones which arent even sold out but people would prefer to pay a premium to have me 'queue' for them instead.
I dont deprive fans of tickets, quite the opposite. If every ticket was sold to a fan then there would still be fans that were unlucky enough to get seats when it sells out or those who would HAVE to sit at the back with a crap view.
I believe I provide choice. You can choose to sit in line at 7am with me or you can buy off me.
And its a gamble. A real gamble. Tickets I thought would sell well havent and those I didnt think would have. I have often sold tickets at half the face value.
I have also sold many tickets which are still readily available via TM etc at an inflated price. I guess thats not knowing where to look for tickets in the first place and just googling?
IMHO the real problem (apart from unregulated touts/scammers) is the music industry itself. Apart from MJ which was massively hyped, 95% of bands do not annouce tours well in advance, only some will give prewarning on their website and even then you'd need to be registered for mail or check every day for news. These are the true fans I guess and they do get rewarded becuase they can be first in line. But more often than not the first you know about a tour is in the Sunday magazine and guess what? By then its either sold out or all thats left is right at the back. Which is where I come in....
I've had crappy emails from people slaggin what I do but I have twice as many more thanking me.
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- Original Poster
- #71
Some good points made there! I can quite believe that if I was a little more wealthy and wanted a guarenteed good ticket for a once in a lifetime show I would be glad of a touts services. What if you don;t care about the price but missed the ticket release? What if you simply don't want to risk disspointment? It's their industry, they know how to get the tickets and are always a useful source if you missed the boat.
And like I said at the start of the thread - I have no sympathy for whining fans. If they were as determined a fan as a tout is a businessman they would stand equal chance. There is also nothing stopping fans bulk buying tickets to distribute at cost price through their own fan groups. Nothing stopping them other than using equal amounts of brainpower, organisation and effort that the touts use.
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you sure?
Wouldn't it have been on the news 'n' stuff?
Nah, news like this doesn't really get much exposure in the media.
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- Original Poster
- #74
Here's a new question then.... Should I NOW get a refund or keep the tickets??
Initially I thought they won't become collectable as 800,000 were issued. But now I'm thinking the vast majority will take the cash so they may become as collectable as elvis last concert tickets.
The other problem is what happens to the money if I let the organisers keep it? Originally a hefty % would have gone to Jacko's estate. But will they now keep it all? That somehow doesnt seem right.
The organisers don't appear very fourthcoming on exactly how this will work!
Initially I thought they won't become collectable as 800,000 were issued. But now I'm thinking the vast majority will take the cash so they may become as collectable as elvis last concert tickets.
The other problem is what happens to the money if I let the organisers keep it? Originally a hefty % would have gone to Jacko's estate. But will they now keep it all? That somehow doesnt seem right.
The organisers don't appear very fourthcoming on exactly how this will work!
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