Keyword rich domains

[Ant84]

Wow, I've really opened a can of worms here!

Still, it's no clearer which way to go, but I'm grateful for the advice given by all.

One thing I hadn't thought of was how memorable the new domain would be for customers and the weight that it would hold in terms of click through rate influence, so that's something to think about. As I mentioned in my example, customers would be more likely to click through to www.car-insurance.co.uk than www.bobsinsurance.co.uk purely from the authority that the former domain name appears to hold.

If it's any help at all, I'd probably only need two or three conversions from this new domain before it's paid for itself. Adwords alone could probably give me that as it's working quite well currently on my current site, but the organic results are what I want long term.

 

[SEO Lady]

Yes earl but if you simply 301 redirect to an existing site the advantage is lost.

I disagree Fisicx

A couple of years ago a company rebranded itself, the old domain was Gpage1 organically for their main keywords. Once the new domain / site was built the 301 was implemented, and in Webmaster Tools the traffic was then pointed at the new domain by informing Google.

The new domain instantly took over all ranking, traffic and even PR within a couple of weeks.

Old domain was 6 years old, new domain was 6 weeks old.

(Unless of course I have totally misread your post)

 

[SEO Lady]

Wow, I've really opened a can of worms here!

Still, it's no clearer which way to go, but I'm grateful for the advice given by all.

One thing I hadn't thought of was how memorable the new domain would be for customers and the weight that it would hold in terms of click through rate influence, so that's something to think about. As I mentioned in my example, customers would be more likely to click through to www.car-insurance.co.uk than www.bobsinsurance.co.uk purely from the authority that the former domain name appears to hold.

If it's any help at all, I'd probably only need two or three conversions from this new domain before it's paid for itself. Adwords alone could probably give me that as it's working quite well currently on my current site, but the organic results are what I want long term.

In 7 days I took a new domain (keyword included) to Gpage2 for the desired keyword. The site is sitting there as a simple 3 page Wordpress site (with little content, just SEO'd, awaiting new website being built), so it is easier to rank for a domain when the site is optimised for that keyword, as well as having the same keyword in the domain.

Long term the result will needed to be proven once the site is live, of course. Gpage1 is the target for organic.

Hope this helps!

 

[fisicx]

(Unless of course I have totally misread your post)

It's all that sun, sand and sangria Nina,

If you brought keyword.com and 301 to current-site.com then there is no value to the keyword domain.

If you do as you did then there may be an advantage. But you are then stuck with keyword.com which might not suit your expansion into a different niche.

So buying preston-cleaner.com might sound great but you then are going to struggle to convince people that you are the man (or woman) for a cleaning job in Blackburn.

 

[SEO Lady]

It's all that sun, sand and sangria Nina,

Yes, you're probably right!

If you do as you did then there may be an advantage. But you are then stuck with keyword.com which might not suit your expansion into a different niche.

So buying preston-cleaner.com might sound great but you then are going to struggle to convince people that you are the man (or woman) for a cleaning job in Blackburn.

Ah, there's the phrase that I missed "suit your expansion into a different niche."

Thanks Graham

 

[XEC Internet Consultants]

...and to add, 'domain squatters' will very rarely negotiate on the price of their domains.

I don't think that's true - most people offering domains are very happy t negotiate.

Stephen.

 

[Esk247]

Lesson learned today: Don't take SEO advice from the forums. Read a little about SEO and understand the basics then practice and experiment yourself.

There are far too many variables to state that a keyword domain will grab a better position in Google, every time, without fail. ]

Didn't a forum member release two identical websites (one keyword the other generic), with identical content to see what the effects would be?

 

[MASSEY]

Lesson learned today: Don't take SEO advice from the forums. Read a little about SEO and understand the basics then practice and experiment yourself.

There are far too many variables to state that a keyword domain will grab a better position in Google, every time, without fail. ]

Didn't a forum member release two identical websites (one keyword the other generic), with identical content to see what the effects would be?

The only variables are how much spam the companies competing are buying.

 

[MASSEY]

Can someone please explain how a single word can be an exact match for a two word phrase?

If my keywords are car insurance then surely car-insurance will be a better match than carinsurance. Google said years ago that hyphens and underscores are treated like spaces so a hyphenated domain is the better option.

They said hyphens and underscores are treated seperate for the URL the bit after the DOMAIN. As far as im aware they have never indicated how this affects the domain.

Domains with hyphens DO NOT get the same benefit as a domain without the hyphen when the EXACT MATCH part of seo is taken into consideration.

I know Fisicx i have had enough domains at exact go onto page one straight away over other pages on sites competing for the same terms with better onsite seo that are domains with no keywords.

This whole topic is a bit personal preference based when you properly think about it, and a headache for many .

 

[crossdaz]

I think it has historical context with how domains were originally used. They would usually be one word and have a strong correlation with the topic.
It is only recently that people have been gaming it which is why google are now turning the dial down?
It's one of those things - you either test it for yourself or live forever in doubt

 

[fisicx]

Domains with hyphens DO NOT get the same benefit as a domain without the hyphen when the EXACT MATCH part of seo is taken into consideration.

Can you explain the EXACT MATCH bit again because I'm being a bit thick here? Why is carinsurance.com a better match for "car insurance" than car-insurance.com?

 

[crossdaz]

The hyphenated term is only an exact match if someone uses the hyphen

 

[fisicx]

So if they use a space between the keywords the hyphenless domain name isn't an exact match either methinks.

 

Domains with hyphens DO NOT get the same benefit as a domain without the hyphen when the EXACT MATCH part of seo is taken into consideration.

I believe the blind leading the blind will go around in circles dependant on which leg is stronger.

Earl

 

[crossdaz]

So if they use a space between the keywords the hyphenless domain name isn't an exact match either methinks.

Well the biggest hitters on the net agree with me.

 

[JohnnyCash]

Well the biggest hitters on the net agree with me.

Exactly. And Earl wades in on an issue he's clueless about, leading people astray again. There should be an seo warning at the top of every thread announcing that 50% of the people here are clueless and you should independently check anything they say

 

Exactly. And Earl wades in on an issue he's clueless about, leading people astray again. There should be an seo warning at the top of every thread announcing that 50% of the people here are clueless and you should independently check anything they say

To true.

Google is your friend.

Earl

 

[JohnnyCash]

To true.

Google is your friend.

Earl

How about you show us some real proof of hyphen domains getting an exact match benefit then? As when asked last time you just went off on a tangent about windmills, showing some completely unrelated search results.

 

[MASSEY]

Exactly. And Earl wades in on an issue he's clueless about, leading people astray again. There should be an seo warning at the top of every thread announcing that 50% of the people here are clueless and you should independently check anything they say

Yes i agree. Some shocking advice goes on here of late. I can only presume some of the people are just trying to be pedantic because if they truely believe what they are saying i feel sorry for the clients.

 

How about you show us some real proof of hyphen domains getting an exact match benefit then? As when asked last time you just went off on a tangent about windmills, showing some completely unrelated search results.

Oh you mean a page that has no links beating both wiki (6,000 links) (or site links of 147 million )and the BBC.

Earl

 

[JohnnyCash]

Oh you mean a page that has no links beating both wiki (6,000 links) (or site links of 147 million )and the BBC.

Earl

No, I mean a hyphen domain out performing a similarly targeted non hyphen domain for a reasonably competitive keyword. Not that silly windmill example again please

 

[fisicx]

It is the finality of the claims that is in question, not the apparant advantage of one approach over another.

If it had been claimed that a non-hyphenated domain name MAY have some advantage over a hyphenated domain then I doubt that anyone would disagree. But to suggest that one is always better than the other shows a lack of appreciation in the holistic SEO system adopted by the search engines. It is not that one domain format will outperform another, it is how the domain name formatting will perform when associated with all the other ranking elements.

Even a test of two identical sites with different domain name formats would be inconclusive as you couldn't be sure that the SE didn't index one a fraction of a second before the other.

 

[diggersjohn33]

Many SEO experts believe that key phrase related URL'S are becoming less relevant.

Why should classic-US-cars.url naturally rank higher than a high quality, well optimised site that's URL is drivesofyourlife . com?

 

[RadiusBPO]

No, I mean a hyphen domain out performing a similarly targeted non hyphen domain for a reasonably competitive keyword. Not that silly windmill example again please

Wayyy too hard to find an example.

Was going to say - http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=mis+sold+mortgages

But the EMD has 2 very rubbish links compared to the hyphen with 960 links...

Then I seen - http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=mis+sold+mortgage+claims

The EMD has what looks like an AMR blast and the hyphen at least has some links with PR (i know...) I'd say all things equal the hyphen should out rank the EMD but it doesn't...

... Can we say that supports the argument that EMDs have more weight than a hyphen?

 

[fisicx]

The top ranking site has got a row of mini-links which means there is a lot about the site that google likes over and above the domain name. The domain with the hyphen has duplicate keywords in the title so that may adversly affect it's ranking. As I suggested, it is the combination of factors that determine ranking, one element of which may be the the domain name format. In any case you could argue that it's miss old not mis sold!

 

[JohnnyCash]

... Can we say that supports the argument that EMDs have more weight than a hyphen?

I think that is the conclusion any reasonable person will come to... I've yet to see any of the people claiming the opposite being able to post any proof.

 

[cmcp]

Why don't one of you run one of your mystical SEO tests then? It would seem the answer is because there are many other factors that play off one another. I'm sure one does out perform another on its own, but since when has SEO been so A + B = C? There are many other letters in the equation. Arguing outside of that just sounds silly imo.

Besides, we all know Hitler invented SEO.

 

[JohnnyCash]

Why don't one of you run one of your mystical SEO tests then? It would seem the answer is because there are many other factors that play off one another. I'm sure one does out perform another on its own, but since when has SEO been so A + B = C? There are many other letters in the equation. Arguing outside of that just sounds silly imo.

Besides, we all know Hitler invented SEO.

Because there is no need to run a test when we already know that exact matches without a hyphen get a boost in google rankings compared to other domains - its really undeniable at this point. Anyone doing lots of keyword research will see it happening on a daily basis, and dozens of people have blogged about it.

I think anyone trying to publish a blog post / test proving that Exact match domains get a benefit would be publicly ridiculed... they'd be about 5 years too late with that piece of news.

 

[cmcp]

So post links to the conclusive, controlled evidence and move on!

(I've no belief either way, just trying to bring some common sense to the gutter!)

 

[JohnnyCash]

It would be far simpler for the people claiming hyphens get an exact match benefit to post the proof, rather than someone else trying to disprove it. After all if they are saying that is the case, then they must have examples to show everyone...

Everything points to the opposite view being correct (general forum opinion, all of the seo's with respected blogs agreeing, from my own point of view my own experiences agree, domain sale prices showing EMD's selling at a premium).

Either Earl is right and EVERYONE else is wrong, or Earl knows something we all don't. Or Earl is just trolling (which I'm swayed towards due to his rather silly reply about windmills last time...)

 

[cmcp]

From start to finish, this is how every SEO thread pans out.

"You are 100% incorrect"
"It's not like that, any real SEO knows that"
"Everyone knows that's not how it works"

All I'm saying is why not spend an extra 60 seconds on your post, hit back with indisputable evidence and save everyone the pain of reading tit for tat squabble.

 

[fisicx]

The problem is that there have been lots of claims but no proof either way. If there are lots of blog posts on the subject with evidence of this SEO boost can you post some links?

I don't believe that hyphen or non hyphen have an appreciable advantage over each other. I've seen both at #1 so can't see any great conflict.

 

[Annoying Donkey]

Lesson learned today: Don't take SEO advice from the forums. Read a little about SEO and understand the basics then practice and experiment yourself.

Probably the best advice I've seen on this forum

Didn't a forum member release two identical websites (one keyword the other generic), with identical content to see what the effects would be?

Sounds like the tests we did across several niches. We didn't find any significant advantage to a keyword domain. Further, we had a bot that checked keyword domain ranking and found that the keyword domain only appeared in the top 10 less that 5% of the time. Others did a larger test and found the same.

I got shouted down and ridiculed by those who apparently feel that he who shouts loudest is always right. Some of the same people came up with lame excuses for all the examples I gave. People will believe what they want to believe...

I wouldn't pay £500 for a keyword domain.

But, if you can get one for the more normal price, around $10, then why not have both. If you rank either domain, then all is well...

 

[JohnnyCash]

All I'm saying is why not spend an extra 60 seconds on your post, hit back with indisputable evidence and save everyone the pain of reading tit for tat squabble.

But it wouldn't be 60 seconds... more like 60 minutes trying to prove something I already know to be correct, to a non paying audience. That doesn't really seem like a good use of a Saturday afternoon

My point is that if someone wants to make a rather wild claim that goes against what pretty much everyone else believes to be true, its up to them to prove they are right. Its not up to everyone else to prove the opposite.

I wouldn't pay £500 for a keyword domain.

imo, that is a rather bizarre statement to come out with as whether a keyword domain is worth £500 or not would rely on lots of different factors, specific to that domain and niche.

If you're in a niche where its hard to get backlinks, then a keyword domain is worth even more. There is value in being able to force Yahoo to use your main phrase as the anchor text in a $300 a year directory listing for example.

 

[cmcp]

My point is that if someone wants to make a rather wild claim that goes against what pretty much everyone else believes to be true, its up to them to prove they are right. Its not up to everyone else to prove the opposite.

And so, we're at 8 pages and counting...

From a bystanders point of view, what makes your belief hold any more truth than their belief.

If it's so clear cut, surely it should be easy and beneficial to the claimant to post a couple of hard facts and be done with it.

It goes on...

 

My point is that if someone wants to make a rather wild claim that goes against what pretty much everyone else believes to be true,



.

I bet my everyone else is a tad larger than yours.

And certainly better informed.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=AD..._pw.&fp=4f061ee8aa4abfcf&biw=939&bih=562&bs=1

Earl

 

[Annoying Donkey]

imo, that is a rather bizarre statement to come out with as whether a keyword domain is worth £500 or not would rely on lots of different factors, specific to that domain and niche.

Only bizarre if you believe keyword domains have any significant advantage. I'll bet my Ferrari that someone paying £500 for a keyword domain will be outranked by someone buying a non keyword domain for $10 and spending £493 on link building

If you're in a niche where its hard to get backlinks

What niche would that be?

 

[JohnnyCash]

I'll just ignore Earl again for now as he seems to have reverted to posting nonsense search results again... at least weblinkplus appears to want to have a sensible adult conversion

Only bizarre if you believe keyword domains have any significant advantage. I'll bet my Ferrari that someone paying £500 for a keyword domain will be outranked by someone buying a non keyword domain for $10 and spending £493 on link building

At the extreme end of the scale and blowing all your budget on a domain then of course you are going to lose.

I'll use a real life example of a domain I own... debtmanagementplan.org. That cost me $1800 to buy. I've done absolutely nothing with it other than point a few links at it and put a holding site on it. Right now it doesn't rank anywhere at all.

Looking at these:

http://www.business.com/directory/f...r_finance/consumer_credit/debt_consolidation/
http://botw.org.uk/Business/Business_to_Business/Financial_Services/Debt_Administration/
http://dir.yahoo.com/Regional/Count...ance/Credit_Services/Debt_Consolidation/?b=40

3 higher end links... all with the perfect anchor text. If I had used JohnnyCashDebtHelp.co.uk there would have been zero chance of getting the good anchor texts there, or any similar place. In some niches that alone makes it worth buying a keyword domain. Presumably even if you don't believe keyword domains themselves give you a benefit, you do agree that links with that anchor text do?

What niche would that be?

Hair loss, viagra, debt help, payday loans, or various other products that people would be embarrassed to be linked to. You don't often see blog posts starting "So I couldn't manage my money properly and was struggling to make it to payday..." or "I'm only 32 and all my hair was falling out and I...". A lot of the normal link building strategies just won't work there - good links are extremely hard to come by.

 

[MASSEY]

From start to finish, this is how every SEO thread pans out.

"You are 100% incorrect"
"It's not like that, any real SEO knows that"
"Everyone knows that's not how it works"

All I'm saying is why not spend an extra 60 seconds on your post, hit back with indisputable evidence and save everyone the pain of reading tit for tat squabble.

Register a domain name with no hyphens and one with hyphens. Put the same keywords in the title and make the content on the page unique but containing the same % of keyword usage and semantic text with bot sites content.

Then laugh to yourself at the people suggesting there is no boost from an EMD.

 

[cmcp]

I'm not the one with anything to prove