Keyword density Or site copy

[Mystro]

Hi Guys

Just a quick question on Keyword density, how important and at what density should a specific keyword be.

I just had the super Scott Chapman write me some pages for my CCTV site, although i am not in a very competative market we rank very well in the essex area for our keywords, we are just about to hit the London areas and try to rank for our keywords there.

I find our conversions have doubled since the new copy has gone on which is fantastic proof that a good well written copy will generate more work, i have also noticed my Visits for this page are up by 51% also but with a lower keyword density than i had before,

To hit the more competative market will the keyword density need to increase or can i just leave the slight reference which reads well for people not the search engines be enough

Ps

So if anyone is wondering what a difference site copy can make, then i can tell you we are booked out untill Mid March for work, and it don't get much better than that, it's never happened before in the 6 years of trading.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

So if anyone is wondering what a difference site copy can make, then i can tell you we are booked out untill Mid March for work, and it don't get much better than that, it's never happened before in the 6 years of trading.

Don't tell Earl that. He won't like it at all.

(it's "all about the product and price" apparently)

Steve

 

[Mystro]

Don't tell Earl that. He won't like it at all.

(it's "all about the product and price" apparently)

Steve

haha Steve Don't start

I dont want to be going through 25 pages to find the answer to my question

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Glad to be of help Mr.Mystro.

As for Earl, I'm keeping my mouth shut.

 

Don't tell Earl that. He won't like it at all.

(it's "all about the product and price" apparently)

Steve

On the contrary Steve delighted to see what Scotts work has achieved.

But again this is a product that needs explaining in the right way,and no idea what the daily sales are.?

Just point out that with a little help from your friendly SEO the sales may increase beyond your belief.

But very well done Scott.

Earl

 

[Mystro]

Much different to car leasing, where i agreed with your post about volumes are key, in the security game some of our systems are 40k plus and we can no way put this into any kind of comparison.

What has worked here 110% is the way the site is proffesionally written which i think helps attract a different kind of customer who may have before over looked us


Ps

Please answer weather keyword density in your opinions is a major factor

 

I would not worry to much about your keyword density ar this stage as your sites biggest problem at the moment is the SEO,may well be well worth your while getting a pro on board as it can be such a high end product or get someone like Steve to do some PPC and see how it goes.

I do suspect your in a growing market.Everyones looking for security in the middle of a recession.

Earl

 

[LibertyMarketing]

Glad it's working for you. In most local markets, keyword density doesn't matter and in many competitive markets so long as a keyword is in the important places (title, headings, URL, etc) then you are fine.

Trying to find the balance between copy that flows well and engages a reader but contains enough keywords to please the search engines is one of the trickiest things in this business.

 

[awebapart.com]

I find our conversions have doubled since the new copy has gone on which is fantastic proof that a good well written copy will generate more work

Well done Mystro and Scott!

What has worked here 110% is the way the site is proffesionally written which i think helps attract a different kind of customer who may have before over looked us

If that is the case then you should really tighten up on some of the site's grammar too, notably apostrophes e.g.
1. Home page, paragraph 3, change "That's why were used by" to "That's why we're used by"
2. Menu system on left (every page), change "Our Client's" to "Our Clients" and "Phone System's" to "Phone Systems"
3. cctv page, network paragraph, change "the clients Internet network" to "the client's Internet network"
etc

but with a lower keyword density than i had before

I've looked at your old home page in the yahoo cache and I don't necessarily agree that your new page has a lower keyword density, or more specifically a lower keyword targeting, overall. Why not? Because your new page has H1 headers with the keywords inside, whereas your old page didn't have H1 headers. There are also differences in number of links, titles, as well as normal text, so it is difficult to say overall what the change would be, but with your new page's addition of H1 tags and the removal of some links etc some of your SEO has been improved. Keyword targeting isn't just a simple case of % of words, it is also about where those words go too.

So overall, in your particular case, I wouldn't worry too much if your new copy has one less occurrence of a particular word than the previous copy, because overall, your overall keyword targeting may have increased with the new version of the site.

That's my initial view after a simplistic glance at your site for some of your main keywords like cctv and some of the geographic areas you mentioned. Obviously, it is not a detailed study of your situation. You might find that some areas might drop in rankings as you try to gain rankings in other areas, especially London, and with your current structure there will be a bit of a 'swings and roundabouts' effect. That is if you have one page targeting multiple areas then what you gain in focus on one area, you can end up losing in focus in the other areas.

 

[Mystro]

Well done Mystro and Scott!


If that is the case then you should really tighten up on some of the site's grammar too, notably apostrophes e.g.
1. Home page, paragraph 3, change "That's why were used by" to "That's why we're used by"
2. Menu system on left (every page), change "Our Client's" to "Our Clients" and "Phone System's" to "Phone Systems"
3. cctv page, network paragraph, change "the clients Internet network" to "the client's Internet network"
etc


I've looked at your old home page in the yahoo cache and I don't necessarily agree that your new page has a lower keyword density, or more specifically a lower keyword targeting, overall. Why not? Because your new page has H1 headers with the keywords inside, whereas your old page didn't have H1 headers. There are also differences in number of links, titles, as well as normal text, so it is difficult to say overall what the change would be, but with your new page's addition of H1 tags and the removal of some links etc some of your SEO has been improved. Keyword targeting isn't just a simple case of % of words, it is also about where those words go too.

So overall, in your particular case, I wouldn't worry too much if your new copy has one less occurrence of a particular word than the previous copy, because overall, your overall keyword targeting may have increased with the new version of the site.

That's my initial view after a simplistic glance at your site for some of your main keywords like cctv and some of the geographic areas you mentioned. Obviously, it is not a detailed study of your situation. You might find that some areas might drop in rankings as you try to gain rankings in other areas, especially London, and with your current structure there will be a bit of a 'swings and roundabouts' effect. That is if you have one page targeting multiple areas then what you gain in focus on one area, you can end up losing in focus in the other areas.

Many thanks

English was not my strong point at school, changes made and well spotted for just a quick glance, i blame the spell checker in Dreamweaver as scott pointed out some errors to me and i went over the whole site and spell checked it (badly it seems)

 

[AaronB]

Hi Guys

Just a quick question on Keyword density, how important and at what density should a specific keyword be.

I just had the super Scott Chapman write me some pages for my CCTV site, although i am not in a very competative market we rank very well in the essex area for our keywords, we are just about to hit the London areas and try to rank for our keywords there.

I find our conversions have doubled since the new copy has gone on which is fantastic proof that a good well written copy will generate more work, i have also noticed my Visits for this page are up by 51% also but with a lower keyword density than i had before,

To hit the more competative market will the keyword density need to increase or can i just leave the slight reference which reads well for people not the search engines be enough

Ps

So if anyone is wondering what a difference site copy can make, then i can tell you we are booked out untill Mid March for work, and it don't get much better than that, it's never happened before in the 6 years of trading.

Fair dooooo, and yes I can see it works but this post just looks like a blog for someone's work, I understand you are happy but...... re read it...

I have just looked at your homepage, I am no web expert but the text is far to light on lower section and I have fairly good eyes. someone over 50 or 60??? the light text will kill them.

Aaron

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Fair dooooo, and yes I can see it works but this post just looks like a blog for someone's work, I understand you are happy but...... re read it...

I don't see the problem. He was happy with Scott's work. Why shouldn't he share that?

I have just looked at your homepage, I am no web expert but the text is far to light on lower section and I have fairly good eyes. someone over 50 or 60??? the light text will kill them.

Mystro was talking about his CCTV site. There's no light text on the homepage. I suspect you may be looking at his car leasing site.

Steve

 

[AaronB]

Yes sorry the car leasing site.

Aaron

 

[Mystro]

Fair dooooo, and yes I can see it works but this post just looks like a blog for someone's work, I understand you are happy but...... re read it...


Aaron

Haha looks like you need to re read it ,

Cannot do anything in regard to the car leasing site at this time, it sits on some one elses server with no CMS for me to make amendments, im getting it rebuilt soon where ill have full access then i can make all the changes i need

 

Haha looks like you need to re read it ,

Cannot do anything in regard to the car leasing site at this time, it sits on some one elses server with no CMS for me to make amendments, im getting it rebuilt soon where ill have full access then i can make all the changes i need

Site looks fine to me and I am a tad over 60.

Plus the amount of people who lease cars over the age of 60 is insignificant.(classified information top secret don't tell Ling I told you.)

Earl

 

[G. Lasagne]

Out of interest, i dont understand how your visitors have increased with good copy, im assuming that a page written for the SE will out rank a page written for humans, well done to scott for proving its not all about page titles and meta this and that, but i still cant fathom how good copy can increase your visitors, unless you have written it with se in mind also.

 

Out of interest, i dont understand how your visitors have increased with good copy, im assuming that a page written for the SE will out rank a page written for humans, well done to scott for proving its not all about page titles and meta this and that, but i still cant fathom how good copy can increase your visitors, unless you have written it with se in mind also.

I don't think he is saying his visitor rate has increased.

But that the amount of people purchasing his products has since Scott changed the sales and presentation message.

Earl

 

[G. Lasagne]

is fantastic proof that a good well written copy will generate more work, i have also noticed my Visits for this page are up by 51% also but with a lower keyword density than i had before,

I think hes saying visitors have increased by 51% with a less keywords and emphasis on SE, thats what im finding hard to get my head around, google is a robot not a human who thinks ooohh thats nice copy you can go top

 

[Mystro]

I think hes saying visitors have increased by 51% with a less keywords and emphasis on SE, thats what im finding hard to get my head around, google is a robot not a human who thinks ooohh thats nice copy you can go top

Yes correct visitors have increased 51% but thats my wishfull thinking i had my analytics on monthly view and its comparing it to Decembers traffic including the quiet xmas period, but comparing to November, the figures are still up as now i have a few more keywords im ranking for where i did not before,

My site was all about my home county of Essex, and i wanted to hit the London areas and already im page 1 for CCTV London which has brought in a bit of traffic this i did not rank for before, others are on their way up too.

I have lost no ranikings in the Essex area but i have gained some in the London and Kent areas where i am now targeting and slowly getting ranked for

Hope this clears things up ....

Paul

 

[AaronB]

Yes correct visitors have increased 51% but thats my wishfull thinking i had my analytics on monthly view and its comparing it to Decembers traffic including the quiet xmas period, but comparing to November, the figures are still up as now i have a few more keywords im ranking for where i did not before,

My site was all about my home county of Essex, and i wanted to hit the London areas and already im page 1 for CCTV London which has brought in a bit of traffic this i did not rank for before, others are on their way up too.

I have lost no ranikings in the Essex area but i have gained some in the London and Kent areas where i am now targeting and slowly getting ranked for

Hope this clears things up ....

Paul

so what pages were done on the cctv site?

Aaron

 

[G. Lasagne]

Yes correct visitors have increased 51% but thats my wishfull thinking i had my analytics on monthly view and its comparing it to Decembers traffic including the quiet xmas period, but comparing to November, the figures are still up as now i have a few more keywords im ranking for where i did not before,

My site was all about my home county of Essex, and i wanted to hit the London areas and already im page 1 for CCTV London which has brought in a bit of traffic this i did not rank for before, others are on their way up too.

I have lost no ranikings in the Essex area but i have gained some in the London and Kent areas where i am now targeting and slowly getting ranked for

Hope this clears things up ....

Paul

Hi Paul

Did you brief scott, saying that you wanted to start ranking for these keywords and thus he wrote it in to the copy? or was it just an unexpected bonus, i just cant see how without any links or without changing your titles etc, you can suddenly rank for cctv london, by simply adding the word in to the text.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

I think hes saying visitors have increased by 51% with a less keywords and emphasis on SE, thats what im finding hard to get my head around, google is a robot not a human who thinks ooohh thats nice copy you can go top

When I wrote the copy I also optimised it for SEO purposes by adding in more keywords and rearranging the structure of the text. I do believe this has resulted in better rankings along with a better conversion rate.

So when you say "google is a robot not a human who thinks ooohh thats nice copy you can go top", this is probably true to a degree, as Google rewards relevant and useful content.

 

[AaronB]

what pages?

 

When I wrote the copy I also optimised it for SEO purposes by adding in more keywords and rearranging the structure of the text. I do believe this has resulted in better rankings along with a better conversion rate.

So when you say "google is a robot not a human who thinks ooohh thats nice copy you can go top", this is probably true to a degree, as Google rewards relevant and useful content.

Not quite google rewards text that suits its algo

google is not a robot its a computer progam nothing else .

Earl

 

[Mystro]

so what pages were done on the cctv site?

Aaron

Not all the pages just a few of them

http://www.247cctv.co.uk/
http://www.247cctv.co.uk/cctv.html
http://www.247cctv.co.uk/CCTV_Radar.html
http://www.247cctv.co.uk/CCTV_Analytics.html
http://www.247cctv.co.uk/CCTV_ANPR.html
http://www.247cctv.co.uk/wirelessalarms.html

 

[G. Lasagne]

Not quite google rewards text that suits its algo

google is not a robot its a computer progam nothing else .

Earl

Exactly and like any indexing program it looks for certain factors, nothing more nothing less, it dosent know whats a good read and whats not, it looks for keywords, titles, meta stuff etc, and inbound links, it needs all these things to decide who ranks where.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Not quite google rewards text that suits its algo

google is not a robot its a computer progam nothing else .

Earl

Exactly and like any indexing program it looks for certain factors, nothing more nothing less, it dosent know whats a good read and whats not, it looks for keywords, titles, meta stuff etc, and inbound links, it needs all these things to decide who ranks where.

And what does the algo look for (or try to look for)? You guessed it - relevant and useful content .

Of course it doesn't look at some text and go "oh this is interesting, you can go up there", but it does use a number of methods to distinguish text which is relevant for a keyword from useless and keyword-laden drivel.

It's a lot more in-depth than just adding in some keywords (although this is a factor). All I will say is that Google analyses all of the other words around the main keywords and factors them in. This includes words simply related to the topic of the main keywords. The placement of these words also makes a considerable difference. The algo does the best job it can of trying to understand what the copy is REALLY about.

If you want proof of how powerful good on-site SEO is, just pop onto Bing and search for 'copywriter'. That's with almost no off-site SEO.

 

[AaronB]

Not all the pages just a few of them

http://www.247cctv.co.uk/
http://www.247cctv.co.uk/cctv.html
http://www.247cctv.co.uk/CCTV_Radar.html
http://www.247cctv.co.uk/CCTV_Analytics.html
http://www.247cctv.co.uk/CCTV_ANPR.html
http://www.247cctv.co.uk/wirelessalarms.html

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

"areas of London, Essex and Kent and the surrounding areas"

 

If you want proof of how powerful good on-site SEO is, just pop onto Bing and search for 'copywriter'. That's with almost no off-site SEO.

great stuff Scott ,but I reckon Google's got the right hump with you.

You must of hurt its feelings.

whats that then.?:|

Don't tell porkies.

http://uk.search.yahoo.com/search?p=link:http://www.chapmancopyanddesign.co.uk/%20-site:chapmancopyanddesign.co.uk

Earl

 

[Mystro]

Hi Paul

Did you brief scott, saying that you wanted to start ranking for these keywords and thus he wrote it in to the copy? or was it just an unexpected bonus, i just cant see how without any links or without changing your titles etc, you can suddenly rank for cctv london, by simply adding the word in to the text.

Bear in Mind what i said earlier, cctv Essex or London are not really that competative and a 6 year old site like mine is, with no real seo in the past done is not that difficult,

And yes the brief was i was going to try and rank in these areas so that's what the copy was written for that purpose.

You can check the linking out yourself, there is hardly any linking to my site except loads of crap directorys, so its only the on page that has worked so far, if it had been a more competative niche i dont think that would have been enough but keep an eye on Security London where i just went to page 8 for that keyword and see how that gets on in the next few weeks or so,

Paul

 

[G. Lasagne]

Not all the pages just a few of them

http://www.247cctv.co.uk/
http://www.247cctv.co.uk/cctv.html
http://www.247cctv.co.uk/CCTV_Radar.html
http://www.247cctv.co.uk/CCTV_Analytics.html
http://www.247cctv.co.uk/CCTV_ANPR.html
http://www.247cctv.co.uk/wirelessalarms.html

errrrrm im gonna get shot down here, the facts are facts, so if your conversion rate and visitors have increased, then your right to sing scotts praises, but looking at that copy, its hardly shakespeare, i mean from what i can gather, you need to write about what you can do for the customer rather about how good you company is, put a few important words in bold, and make sure it contains your keywords.

im still on the fence with the whole "do you need a copywriter" argument, i really think its something anyone with a decent imagination and a bit of marketing nounce can do and more importantly TIME.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

great stuff Scott ,but I reckon Google's got the right hump with you.

You must of hurt its feelings.

whats that then.?:|

Don't tell porkies.

http://uk.search.yahoo.com/search?p...esign.co.uk/ -site:chapmancopyanddesign.co.uk

Earl

You're an SEO man Earl. You can't seriously consider that a lot of SEO can you (or even decent off-SEO for that matter). Pretty much all of those results are from my UKBF signature anyway (the 3700 or so), and a few of them are no-follow blog comments - hence my 'almost none' comment.

Heed my words: there's more to on-site content SEO than keyword density.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

errrrrm im gonna get shot down here, the facts are facts, so if your conversion rate and visitors have increased, then your right to sing scotts praises, but looking at that copy, its hardly shakespeare, i mean from what i can gather, you need to write about what you can do for the customer rather about how good you company is, put a few important words in bold, and make sure it contains your keywords.

im still on the fence with the whole "do you need a copywriter" argument, i really think its something anyone with a decent imagination and a bit of marketing nounce can do and more importantly TIME.

So why haven't you done it? I still firmly believe that I could personally better your current conversion rate by a considerable amount, but you choose to not believe that.

Copy isn't supposed to sound like Shakespeare. It's supposed to work, and it does. There's FAR more planning behind those words than you may think, and the facts are there. You could take two sets of copy which look very similar and sound very similar, yet one of them can out-perform the other by a substantial amount.

You certainly don't need a copywriter at all, but the ones who use one are often greatly rewarded with the results.

 

[Matt1959]

I gotta feeling Daves being a bit devils advocate here in trying to tease some tangible stuff out of the thread I do fully see that doing copy in a certain way would aid conversions as thats obvious. Doing some PPC currently and one ad has a much higher quailty score than the other. Nothing to do with click thru's, ad wording - must be to do with the two landing pages - they are written in completely different ways with different layouts so it must be, that Google likes some things more than others.

 

You're an SEO man Earl. You can't seriously consider that a lot of SEO can you (or even decent off-SEO for that matter). Pretty much all of those results are from my UKBF signature anyway (the 3700 or so), and a few of them are no-follow blog comments - hence my 'almost none' comment.

Heed my words: there's more to on-site content SEO than keyword density.

Er I think I may be aware of that.

Don't underestimate the power of incoming links I.E you have far more links than the site above you.

Earl

 

[G. Lasagne]

So why haven't you done it? I still firmly believe that I could personally better your current conversion rate by a considerable amount, but you choose to not believe that.

Copy isn't supposed to sound like Shakespeare. It's supposed to work, and it does. There's FAR more planning behind those words than you may think, and the facts are there. You could take two sets of copy which look very similar and sound very similar, yet one of them can out-perform the other by a substantial amount.

You certainly don't need a copywriter at all, but the ones who use one are often greatly rewarded with the results.

I do plan on doing it, its on my "to do list" i have no doubt you could increase my conversions with new copy, but it boils down to cost and whether its worth having a go myself to see if i cant increase conversions with my own copy.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

I do plan on doing it, its on my "to do list" i have no doubt you could increase my conversions with new copy, but it boils down to cost and whether its worth having a go myself to see if i cant increase conversions with my own copy.

Well that depends. You have to weigh up weather the ROI will be worth it.

With some clever thinking, you could end up with quite an impressive sales conversion rate of say 8%. Now, if a copywriter with X years experience can achieve 9%, that is (theoretically speaking of course) a permanent increase of one extra client per 100 visitors. Over a month, that can be a LOT of money.

That's why it's so important to get proper copy for your site and/or run some split-testing. Over a period of months and years, every percent counts.

Good luck with it though .

 

[Tej]

What is the cost scenario?

Is it per x no of words, or something more.

excuse the ignorance please

 

What is the cost scenario?

Is it per x no of words, or something more.

excuse the ignorance please

depends on the length of the words.

I expect supercalafragalistic and

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch [/FONT]

might come to a few bob.

Earl

 

[Tej]

I did say words.. not letters in a word

I have heard about paying by the inch..

but by each letter?