Julian Assange ?

The legal position of the whole case is written about here by a prominent Human Rights lawyer in The New Statesman, who both lean towards the left and thus might be expected to support Assange.
The link to the article by a Barrister is also worth following.

On the Galloway bile: will the Ecuadorians take him instead? We'll chip in towards the cost.
(You also wonder if Dreamy George-'I like 'em dreaming' Galloway's partners found the best way to deal with his attentions was to pretend to be asleep...):)
 
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Are you really suggesting that the tens even hundreds of thousands of people massacred in Kosovo was just lies and propaganda by the west? I was there before, during and after and NATO went in and I can tell you it was very, very real - There were a number of times where we were forced to evacuate certain areas because of government troops moving in on us.

Why do you think there were so many succesful war crime prosecutions against the army and government?

You are also very wrong to think it all started with just a few issolated shootings by "terrorist" organisations. The history of this conflict goes back hundreds even thousands of years. There was only peace in the region because the Russians flooded the area with troops and kept the sides apart. When the USSR fell the troops withdrew and everything basically carried on where it left off pre-Russian days.

BTW Those lightly armed soldiers that NATO were bombing were in the process of ethnic cleansing. I have been to sites where they rounded the men up from towns and shot them for no reason. I have been to the scene where they rounded a village in to a basketball court, kept them there for 3 days with no food and water before they decided to throw grenades in. I have been to villages where all the women were raped by the army. Does that sound like an army that needed protecting from the heavy weapons of NATO? They were told by the international community to stop but they carried on.

While we are on it, how was it a mission to destroy Yugoslavia? Yugoslavia was already destroying its self. Why put NATO troops in to do that when it was already doing that to its self anyway?

As for a legitimate government, how is it legitimate if it is not one its people wants and that has been imposed on them with the violence? It maybe the legally installed government but as one that is not wanted by its people and is incrasingly alienated from the rest of the world, is it still safe to class it as a legitimate?

Everybody's personal war is the only one they see; it's almost impossible to be objective. You visited sites after incidents were supposed to have happened; but you didn't witness them personally. You had to evacuate because government troops were closing in; please relate to us a single incident in Kosovo where aid workers were attacked or killed in Kosovo?

You have been to villages where all the women claim to have been raped yet various commissions have failed to find any proof that any such incidents but here are a few to be going on with courtesy of Wickipedia.

Incomplete list of massacres:
Lake Radonjić massacre - 34 Serbs and a few Albanian moderates were murdered by Albanian militants (UÇK).
Gnjilane massacre – The remains of 80 Serbs were discovered in mass graves after they were killed by Albanian militants.[13]
Orahovac Massacre - More than 100 Serbian and Roma civilians were kidnapped and placed in concentration camps, 47 were killed.[14]
Staro Gračko massacre – 14 Serbian farmers were murdered by Albanian militants.[15]
Glodjane massacre – 37 Serbs were found in mass graves having been massacred by the UÇK.[16]
Klečka massacre – 22 Serb women were raped, murdered and mutilated by the Albanians.[15][17]
Panda Bar Massacre in 1998 – 6 Kosovo Serb teenagers were killed in a café in the town of Peć.[18]
Ugljare massacre – 15 Serbs were murdered by Albanian separatists.[15]
Peć massacre – 20 Serbs were murdered and their corpses were thrown down wells. Ramush Hardinaj is currently on trial for this, amongst other crimes.
[edit]Destruction of settlements, churches and cemeteries
In the days after Yugoslav forces withdrew from Kosovo, over 200,000 homes that belonged to Serbs were demolished[19] by ethnic Albanians with the help of the UÇK. Since the war ended, many graves containing the bodies of Serbs have been desecrated by ethnic Albanians. No one has ever been brought to justice for these crimes.[20][21]

Trials for war crimes are held by the victors; if Yugoslavia had come out on top there's every possibility that there would be warrants out for the arrest of Blair and Bush to be tried as war criminals should the Yugoslavs ever managed to get their hands on them.

Yugoslavia was not destroying itself it was multi-ethnic and socialist, it had a a growing economy coupled with a decent standard of living. It also had free medical care and education. The government guaranteed everyone a job, literacy levels were over 90%, life expectancy over 72 years and it boasted affordable transportation, housing and utilities.

The Bush administration changed all that when it passed the 1991 Foreign Operations Appropriations Law. It cut off all funding including that of the IMF and World bank for any part of Yugoslavia that didn’t declare independence within six months.

The Americans and the British backed a terrorist group called the KLA which was outlawed by the UN and sent recruits to be trained by Bin Laden while helping them to kill rivals who opposed any separatist movement in Kosovo.

By 1997 the KLA led by the USA and Britain was recruiting mercenaries from all over the world and providing them with lots of money and weapons. This is when the KLA started serious military operations, attacking government buildings and police stations.

There are two things that stand out, one was a German fact finding mission for the UN that reported security forces in Kosovo were not acting against Albanians as an ethnic group, but only against the KLA.
The second is the report of the so called "Racak Massacre" by the Kosovo Verification Mission. How many people know that the KVM was led by William Walker? That's right the same William Walker who run the Contra war against Nicaragua for Oliver North; the same man who was ambassador to San Salvador and head of the CIA there during the infamous death squads. It's now accepted that the massacre never happened and that it was staged.

In 1999 during the "Rambouillet Negotiations" Milosevic accepted all of the Rambouillet demands except for NATO occupation of Yugoslavia itself. He wanted the troops to be under UN command. This was rejected by the Americans and the British and they bombed Yugoslavia to smithereens.

Milosevic was elected by a majority of Serbians in fair and free elections scrutinised by the international community; Kosovo was and still is part of Serbia technically because it is still not recognised as anything else by countries who are not prepared to break international law.
The recognition by NATO countries of Croatia, Slovenia, and Bosnia, and the attempted secession of Kosovo are against the 1975 Helsinki Accords, which guarantee territorial frontiers of states in Europe.

Why did they do it?

To destroy the largest remaining socialist nation refusing to cooperate with the ultinational Corporations who rule the New World Order.

To get access to Kosovo’s rich natural resources and more importantly to gain control of the oil and gas pipeline routes from the Caspian Sea, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, and Azerbaijan.

It was a war that was entirely avoidable and we are going there again because we are led by political midgets and megalomaniacs.
 
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I bought the 'i' newspaper as I have limited time to play catch up at the moment - and read an article that sent me searching for his actual words!

To paraphrase somewhat - he basically says that having sex with a woman in her sleep after having consensual sex was not rape so therefore Julian wasn't technically guilty - so yes good old George yet again plunders in where other fear to tread!

George is a nutter but could you honestly bang someone up for going back for crafty seconds; however, technically if someone hasn't actually consented, it has to be rape doesn't it?
 
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George is a nutter but could you honestly bang someone up for going back for crafty seconds; however, technically if someone hasn't actually consented, it has to be rape doesn't it?

Interesting point that under UK law Julian has commited no offence in the act the Swedes are interested in.:|

So why would the uk think he should be extradited to Sweden.?
 
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Interesting point that under UK law Julian has commited no offence in the act the Swedes are interested in.:|

So why would the uk think he should be extradited to Sweden.?
Because that's not how extradition works. It's not exactly a complex topic, why are you confused?

Scratch that question, I actually have no interest in your confusion.
 
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Everybody's personal war is the only one they see; it's almost impossible to be objective. You visited sites after incidents were supposed to have happened; but you didn't witness them personally. You had to evacuate because government troops were closing in; please relate to us a single incident in Kosovo where aid workers were attacked or killed in Kosovo?

You have been to villages where all the women claim to have been raped yet various commissions have failed to find any proof that any such incidents but here are a few to be going on with courtesy of Wickipedia.




Trials for war crimes are held by the victors; if Yugoslavia had come out on top there's every possibility that there would be warrants out for the arrest of Blair and Bush to be tried as war criminals should the Yugoslavs ever managed to get their hands on them.


Yugoslavia was not destroying itself it was multi-ethnic and socialist, it had a a growing economy coupled with a decent standard of living. It also had free medical care and education. The government guaranteed everyone a job, literacy levels were over 90%, life expectancy over 72 years and it boasted affordable transportation, housing and utilities.


The Bush administration changed all that when it passed the 1991 Foreign Operations Appropriations Law. It cut off all funding including that of the IMF and World bank for any part of Yugoslavia that didn’t declare independence within six months.


The Americans and the British backed a terrorist group called the KLA which was outlawed by the UN and sent recruits to be trained by Bin Laden while helping them to kill rivals who opposed any separatist movement in Kosovo.


By 1997 the KLA led by the USA and Britain was recruiting mercenaries from all over the world and providing them with lots of money and weapons. This is when the KLA started serious military operations, attacking government buildings and police stations.


There are two things that stand out, one was a German fact finding mission for the UN that reported security forces in Kosovo were not acting against Albanians as an ethnic group, but only against the KLA.

The second is the report of the so called "Racak Massacre" by the Kosovo Verification Mission. How many people know that the KVM was led by William Walker? That's right the same William Walker who run the Contra war against Nicaragua for Oliver North; the same man who was ambassador to San Salvador and head of the CIA there during the infamous death squads. It's now accepted that the massacre never happened and that it was staged.

In 1999 during the
"Rambouillet Negotiations" Milosevic accepted all of the Rambouillet demands except for NATO occupation of Yugoslavia itself. He wanted the troops to be under UN command. This was rejected by the Americans and the British and they bombed Yugoslavia to smithereens.

Milosevic was elected by a majority of Serbians in fair and free elections scrutinised by the international community; Kosovo was and still is part of Serbia technically because it is still not recognised as anything else by countries who are not prepared to break international law.

The recognition by NATO countries of Croatia, Slovenia, and Bosnia, and the attempted secession of Kosovo are against the 1975 Helsinki Accords, which guarantee territorial frontiers of states in Europe.

Why did they do it?


To destroy the largest remaining socialist nation refusing to cooperate with the ultinational Corporations who rule the New World Order.


To get access to Kosovo’s rich natural resources and more importantly to gain control of the oil and gas pipeline routes from the Caspian Sea, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, and Azerbaijan.


It was a war that was entirely avoidable and we are going there again because we are led by political midgets and megalomaniacs.
lmao this is literally "well you may have first hand experience but let me tell you what wikipedia says" hahaha
 
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lmao this is literally "well you may have first hand experience but let me tell you what wikipedia says" hahaha

The only bit of that post that came from wikipedia was clearly in quotes. I never take part in discussions that I do not have first hand experience of even if that experience taught me that everything I believed in wasn't worth a toss. Sorry where were you in 1997-1999?
 
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When aid working in a conflict zone all the aid agencies work together with each of them getting intelligence from different sources which they freely share amongst themselves. It is amazing to witness, it is like an internet with no computers. Intelligence on troop movements and activities was coming in from a wide range of governments and international aid agencies. Many threats were made against the aid agencies and many orders were received not to help certain groups of people. When you help those groups of people and you here retrabution is on the way, you get out of there. An aid agency doesn not have guns or weapons to defend its self, the only thing it has is on the ground inteligance and people, so you simply dont take the risk. The agency I worked with had no political gender and did not take sides, it simply provided humanitarian aid to who ever needed it. As a result of all this intelligence, apart from a few roughing ups of aid workers most aid workers remianed unharmed (a handful were killed in seperate incidents involving mines and booby traps)

We did return to a couple of the villages where we had fled from to find that troops had been trying to get our locations from the villagers.

We went to two towns where rape was used as a weapon as was the beating up of pregnant women. Apart from talking to the victims and the medical teams that attended to them, no I have no real evidence. Proving rape in a war zone is not the easiest thing to do, but it does not mean it didnt happen. Rape was probably not ordered from on high in the army (if it was it was well hidden) and I personally suspect it was a few rouge units responsible for what we saw in those two villages.

A more complete list of the massacres can be found here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_the_Kosovo_War

More details of the war crimes can be found here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_War

Including the covering up of around 1,200-1,500 bodies around the Trepča Mines.

Due to the identity cleansing that went on during that period, it will never be known how many people vanished or what side they were on, simply because all records of them were wiped out. The war reported in Wikipedia and in other places is just a fraction of what really went on during that terrible period. Just because things were never proven or written up in Wikipedia it doesnt mean it didnt happen.

I have no doubt that when a country is killing its people and countries like the UK, the US and many others have their hands tied by the UN, those countries will provide on the ground assistance through what ever means they can. That will mean sending in mercenaries and arms as they are no doubt doing right now in Syria.

If you study the history of the region it is easy to see it has been a tinder box that has flared up time and time again. Prior to the war the region enjoyed a lengthy period of peace, but that was only due the USSR being there and keeping the peace. As soon as they left it returned its sad state. The only reason there is a tense peace there now is because the UN is still holding it together.
 
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Its hard to believe ( again no its not) that the uk government don't realise what a great PR coup they would get if they allowed Julian safe passage.

But being the pompous ignoramus's they are its unlikely the lights will come on.

I doubt any but the most stupid person in britain thinks that the woman who slept with him objected to intercourse on the second occasion.

I mean if she did not like it first time round why did she not go home.?:|

Britain is fast becomong a land of children.IMHO
 
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When aid working in a conflict zone all the aid agencies work together with each of them getting intelligence from different sources which they freely share amongst themselves. It is amazing to witness, it is like an internet with no computers. Intelligence on troop movements and activities was coming in from a wide range of governments and international aid agencies. Many threats were made against the aid agencies and many orders were received not to help certain groups of people. When you help those groups of people and you here retrabution is on the way, you get out of there. An aid agency doesn not have guns or weapons to defend its self, the only thing it has is on the ground inteligance and people, so you simply dont take the risk. The agency I worked with had no political gender and did not take sides, it simply provided humanitarian aid to who ever needed it. As a result of all this intelligence, apart from a few roughing ups of aid workers most aid workers remianed unharmed (a handful were killed in seperate incidents involving mines and booby traps)

We did return to a couple of the villages where we had fled from to find that troops had been trying to get our locations from the villagers.

We went to two towns where rape was used as a weapon as was the beating up of pregnant women. Apart from talking to the victims and the medical teams that attended to them, no I have no real evidence. Proving rape in a war zone is not the easiest thing to do, but it does not mean it didnt happen. Rape was probably not ordered from on high in the army (if it was it was well hidden) and I personally suspect it was a few rouge units responsible for what we saw in those two villages.

A more complete list of the massacres can be found here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_in_the_Kosovo_War

More details of the war crimes can be found here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes_in_the_Kosovo_War

Including the covering up of around 1,200-1,500 bodies around the Trepča Mines.

Due to the identity cleansing that went on during that period, it will never be known how many people vanished or what side they were on, simply because all records of them were wiped out. The war reported in Wikipedia and in other places is just a fraction of what really went on during that terrible period. Just because things were never proven or written up in Wikipedia it doesnt mean it didnt happen.

I have no doubt that when a country is killing its people and countries like the UK, the US and many others have their hands tied by the UN, those countries will provide on the ground assistance through what ever means they can. That will mean sending in mercenaries and arms as they are no doubt doing right now in Syria.

If you study the history of the region it is easy to see it has been a tinder box that has flared up time and time again. Prior to the war the region enjoyed a lengthy period of peace, but that was only due the USSR being there and keeping the peace. As soon as they left it returned its sad state. The only reason there is a tense peace there now is because the UN is still holding it together.

Well we are never going to agree are we? The only history that really matters regarding Kosovo is that since World War II. You keep on harping on about the Russians; there was never any Russian involvement in Yugoslavia other than it helped to liberate them, it was never behind the Iron curtain or a member of the Warsaw pact. Yugoslavia was also founder member of the Non Aligned Movement which if you think about it underlines Yugoslavia's independence of Russia.

The occupying forces of Germany, Italy and Bulgaria were beaten by Yugoslavs and right up to their imminent defeat by Tito and his partisans the Americans and the British preferred to back Dragoljub Draza Mihajlovic who was executed after the war as a collaborator.

It was this thwarting of America's and Britain's ambitions that sowed the seeds of the conflict that was to follow half a century later.

But all this is bye the bye, Yugoslavia was a sovereign country with recognised borders which included Kosovo. It was a founder member of the United Nations.

Now let's move away from Yugoslavia and talk about Britain instead or more particularly Northern Ireland. There was a band of terrorists that wanted the British out of Northern Ireland and a united Ireland. They terrorised those that wanted to stay united with Britain, they killed Policemen, they killed Soldiers, they killed innocent civilians, they carried out indiscriminate bombing of the British mainland. We knew where they were hiding, we knew who was supplying them with weapons and money. The British stood fast and their Soldiers and Policemen hunted them down and in some instances summarily executed them. At what point would it have been wrong to do this and at what point should the British have given in? At what point would it have been right to use our bombers to wipe out the terrorist hierarchy over the border in a sovereign state; we knew exactly where they were?

This is exactly how it started in Kosovo only it escalated because the British and Americans were supplying the terrorists with weapons and money and reinforcing them with trained Mercenaries. The Yugoslavians stood fast and met terror with force yet suddenly we changed the rules and bombed that Sovereign country into submission.

Please don't try to to tell me it was all done in the name of human rights otherwise we would be bombing China and Saudi Arabia. We cannot pretend it was about the self determination of ethnic peoples if it was why aren't we bombing Turkey to free the Kurds better still bombing Israel to free the Palestinians? If we really are that concerned about ethnic cleansing why haven't we intervened with our bombers in the various ethnic wars going on in Africa and other parts of the world?

I was in Kosovo for two years and never came across a substantiated mass rape and some of the claims would have been physically impossible. I did see a lot of atrocities but they were not the work of any one side. If I had to come down on one side or the other I would say that definitely more captives were summarily executed by the KLA and will readily admit that this almost certainly resulted in reprisals.
I never came across a single substantiated case of ill treatment of Aid Workers by the Serbian military despite the fact that most aid workers were hostile towards them and British military records show no deaths other than natural causes (That does not mean that they did not happen if they were not carrying identification and were not recorded as entering the country through official channels)

One day the truth will be written about the shameful role America and Britain played in Yugoslavia it's not a pretty story.

No matter how you butter it up you cannot get away from certain facts. The war was against the UN Charter, Article 2, which prohibits the use of force against a sovereign state which has not acted as an aggressor against other states.

The NATO Charter specifically says that NATO is a defensive alliance and can only go to war if a member state is attacked.

Are we really going to act so shamefully in Syria?
 
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