Is it Fraud or not?

[Lablovezel]

I would like to enquire what to do in the following situation.

I am going to try to explain it shortly and getting to the point.

On my workplace each worker works on a computer. We need to log in when we start to work and log off at the finish time.

There is a clocking in/out system at the entry and exit point of the building. When we finished our shift we need to log off from the computer. If for example we need to finish at 03:00 we log off at 03:00 based on the time of the computer. After this we go to the exit gate where the “clocking out” system is operating. And our salary is being counted based on this time! The point is:

Almost all the computers on the workplace show different times so we don’t know exactly what the correct time is. When we reach the exit gate and leave the building we don’t know what time exactly will we leave from our workplace! And if we left 1 minute earlier, the company will make deductions (15 minutes) from our salaries. And believe me you will leave earlier because the clocking out system clock’s a little slow (1-5 minutes) compared to the computers (or the computers clocks are fast I don’t know). So all that you can do is waiting a little and estimate there is past 03:00 but you CANNOT be sure. Workers can assume rightly that is the correct time what they can see on their computer and they leave the building unseeingly. They will only come across in the next months that their payment has been cut off. Your salary will be deducted even if you were logged off at 03:00 from your computer because you left at 2:59 based on the clocking out clock!

So this is the way where the company tries to cheat our salaries. I think it’s a fraud.

Anyway, the devices what could show the correct time (the clocking in/out system) has been dismantled at the exit gates so all that you can do just swipe your card! But not at the entry points, the clocks are there! There are no any options to find out what is the correct time at all when you leave!

When I asked them and tried to argue in this case, they told me this is my responsibility and get a watch and set the time to the clocks at the entry points. But obviously my watch also could be slow sometime because of flat battery or something else. As they told me they are working on this. But still makes deductions.

As I think the company should provide a basic time system what is easily accessible and provide the correct time to the workers. The weird thing is the company already have this system just they try to play with it and creating a possibility to save money from our payments.

So I would like to know what I should do now and who do I need to write to or whether I am right at all.


Thank you!

 

[Alan]

Which country is this in?

 

[Lablovezel]

Well known company in UK (England)

 

[Mr D]

Get a mobile phone and have that clock set to the time you need. Your mobile phone will not lose time like a watch does every couple of years will it?

 

[KAC]

What is the nature of the business?
Do you belong to a union?

 

[Alan]

Crazy. Whilst not a fan of unions, employers like that are why they are necessary

 

[Mr D]

Crazy. Whilst not a fan of unions, employers like that are why they are necessary

For deducting pay over leaving early?

 

[Alan]

For having unsync d system s and using them as an excuse to deduct pay

 

[Mr D]

For having unsync d system s and using them as an excuse to deduct pay

Sorry missed that, which unsync d system are they using for pay?

 

[Newchodge]

Is your rate of pay minimum wage or higher?

 

[Raw Rob]

Get a mobile phone and have that clock set to the time you need. Your mobile phone will not lose time like a watch does every couple of years will it?

The reason modern mobile phones don't loose (or gain) time is because they sync to time signals from the mobile network, so this wouldn't work.

 

[Mr D]

The reason modern mobile phones don't loose (or gain) time is because they sync to time signals from the mobile network, so this wouldn't work.

For telling time why would it not work?
Avoids battery issue of the watch - people often keep mobile phone charged up

 

[billmccallum1957]

wait til 3.05 then clock off the computer, by the time you get out it will be 3.10 and you wont get reduced wages, simple.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Its not an issue for this forum This a business forum !
I have never had the luxury of being employed and having someone else to blame
Why do people sign up for here the ask employment related questions
Worse still you lot then answer the questions
If I constantly ask how do I make a Christmas cake, How do I baste my turkey, How much jam do I put in doughnuts and will they explode if I pump too much in !
The mods would soon clamp down on such shenanigans but they entertain this

 

[Gecko001]

Its not an issue for this forum This a business forum !
I have never had the luxury of being employed and having someone else to blame
Why do people sign up for here the ask employment related questions
Worse still you lot then answer the questions
If I constantly ask how do I make a Christmas cake, How do I baste my turkey, How much jam do I put in doughnuts and will they explode if I pump too much in !
The mods would soon clamp down on such shenanigans but they entertain this

Thanks Jeremy. You saved me a long read. I hope I can return the favour sometime.

 

[Paul Norman]

First, even the mention of fraud here is frivolous and not helpful. It is definitely not fraud.

Secondly, it is not really that good practise, on the face of it, by the employer, although without knowing more details of why they have this complex system I could well be misjudging things.

Thirdly, as stated above, don't cut it so fine. Then you will be ok. Log off at 3.01. Walk more slowly to the exit.

 

[Raw Rob]

For telling time why would it not work?
Avoids battery issue of the watch - people often keep mobile phone charged up

It seems that the clocking out system is not set to the correct time. So if you set a modern mobile phone to the slightly incorrect time of the clocking out system, the mobile would probably adjust itself to the correct time using signals from the mobile network.

 

[STDFR33]

well be misjudging things.

Thirdly, as stated above, don't cut it so fine. Then you will be ok. Log off at 3.01. Walk more slowly to the exit.

The problem with that is, is that it doesn't seem like that place that you would want to spend an extra minute being there.

 

[Paul Norman]

The problem with that is, is that it doesn't seem like that place that you would want to spend an extra minute being there.

I do agree. But to ensure 15 minutes pay, I would do it.

Whilst searching hard for a job somewhere that does not operate as though it is 1857

 

[Mr D]

It seems that the clocking out system is not set to the correct time. So if you set a modern mobile phone to the slightly incorrect time of the clocking out system, the mobile would probably adjust itself to the correct time using signals from the mobile network.

Is the clocking out system set to the same time as the clocking in system?
Then solution would be to take note of time going in and not clock out until the right time going out based on own timekeeping.

I don't think anyone suggested changing the time settings on mobile phone.
I only suggested mobile to avoid the timekeeping problems a watch experiences when battery runs down every few years.

 

[Mr D]

I do agree. But to ensure 15 minutes pay, I would do it.

Whilst searching hard for a job somewhere that does not operate as though it is 1857

Have had several previous employers who did insist on staff being on site for the hours being paid for.
It does not appear uncommon as an expectation.

 

[STDFR33]

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Have had several previous employers who did insist on staff being on site for the hours being paid for.
It does not appear uncommon as an expectation.

Nobody is saying that staff shouldn't work their contracted hours.

What people disagree with is the underhand method to squeeze an extra couple of minutes from staff and / or penalise them by docking 15 minutes because the machines are not synchronised.

 

[Mr D]

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Nobody is saying that staff shouldn't work their contracted hours.

What people disagree with is the underhand method to squeeze an extra couple of minutes from staff and / or penalise them by docking 15 minutes because the machines are not synchronised.

How much do employers usually dock for staff leaving early?

 

[STDFR33]

How much do employers usually dock for staff leaving early?

Nothing in my experience.

 

[Mr D]

Nothing in my experience.

All the ones I have come across has been in 15 minute increments.

 

[STDFR33]

All the ones I have come across has been in 15 minute increments.

What's your point?

There's nothing legally wrong with operating such a system. But the system should be operated accurately so that you are not taking a massive steamy one on your staff.

 

[Mr D]

What's your point?

There's nothing legally wrong with operating such a system. But the system should be operated accurately so that you are not taking a massive steamy one on your staff.

And staff should not be leaving early yes?

 

[STDFR33]

And staff should not be leaving early yes?

the system should be operated accurately so that you are not taking a massive steamy one on your staff.[/QUOTE]

 

[DavidWH]

Surely they could just sync everything to a NTP server, so all computers, clocking in/out systems are sync'd to the same time... problem solved.

Has anyone mentioned this discrepancy to management, they may be completely unaware this is a problem?

 

[Alan]

And staff should not be leaving early yes?

I assume you are deliberately missing the point to make your point. The staff are not leaving early. They are employed to work on computers, the time on their computers say 'end of shift' 15:00 they get up walk slowly to the door, put their coats on and swipe out. Next thing they know they have had 15 minutes deducted for leaving on time.

Clearly the employer is either incompetent in its management of technology, or disingenuous trying to screw 2% extra out of their staff.

I suspect the former, but without the facts, it is impossible to say.

The issue of unsyncronized technology needs to be raised to management and resolved, as it is clearly p*ssing of employees.

Again, I have no facts, but I guess these are minimum wage employees ( and maybe even on zero hour contracts ), with little confidence to raise issues to management, in fear of their jobs. And hence in these circumstances a union or staff rep body can help in raising issues to management.

Does this thread belong on a business forum ? well the topic is actually about management so has more relevance than jam doughnut filling, and maybe it will serve as a reminder to those that have staff that seemingly trivial things like docking pay can p*ss your staff off.

 

[Mr D]

Alan - OP is leaving early and having pay deducted because they are not taking account of the time - the computer time is as you say wrong. Must have missed the bit where employer takes the computer time as time entering and leaving premises.

Simple solution, use an alternative method of telling time to see that have done required hours.


Rather than avoid being penalised you seem to want OP to have the cake and eat it. Come in on time and leave early.
OK. There are consequences for the employee.

 

[pen2670]

Could you not check the time on clock in, use it to change the time on all the computers, then use the computers to clock out? Then check the time weekly to make sure they stay in sync. If you're switching your computer off at finish time, collecting your stuff, then walking to the clock out machine then you would still have a couple of minutes grace if they unsynced.

Or if you can't change the time yourself have you asked your bosses if an it admin can do this?

Having worked at a clock in / clock out firm many years ago I wonder if the lack of time at clock out is aiming to eliminate hovering ie the employee who leaves their work 5 minutes early to pack up by finish time on the dot then hovers over the clock til it hits home time.

 

[Alan]

@Mr D I assume you are being deliberately obtuse.

If for example we need to finish at 03:00 we log off at 03:00 based on the time of the computer.

Note the use of the word need, that is a management directive. They stop work based on the computer time.

Your salary will be deducted even if you were logged off at 03:00 from your computer because you left at 2:59 based on the clocking out clock!

The implication here is management are stating you must do one thing stopping work at computer time 03:00, but then wait an unspecified and indeterminable period of time before leaving the building at a guess of 'door time' 03:00

This is irrational from the management perspective, as they get no extra work, the only benefit that management get is occasionally a poor sod is tricked out of 15 minutes pay because they didn't stand around in the lobby long enough and make the right guess.

If you think that the employee is pulling a fast one - how? They logged of at 03:00 which is what they are directed to do at the end of their shift?

It is clear that either the management of this business are incompetent or devious. Hence the feeling that OP has that they have been defrauded - because he has done his job - but due to a 'technicality' has been penalised. Its not fraud, it is either management incompetence or deviousness.

I'm also certain that management don't take the time to thank the staff either.

 

[Mr D]

And the clocking in time starts when? When clocking in or on computer time?
The solution is simple how you cannot see it is beyond me. Are you the one being obtuse?

Is the employee working the hours they are supposed to? Yes or no.

 

[STDFR33]

Is the employee working the hours they are supposed to? Yes or no.

The very fact that the this is in question must tell you that there is something wrong with the current system.

 

[Newchodge]

The OP has not bothered answering my question, however, if the company is paying minimum wage they are committing a criminal offence by docking workers 15 minutes if they are 1 minute off time. If minimum wage is paid, every minute worked must be paid for.

 

[Mr D]

The very fact that the this is in question must tell you that there is something wrong with the current system.

Or the employee goes early.

Its one or the other and the computer time appears irrelevant to timekeeping. Nor does the OP appear to have another method of timekeeping.

 

[Alan]

the computer time appears irrelevant to timekeeping

Exactly, and as the job is based on computer time ( they need to log off at 03:00 ) this is the irrational part.

Do you agree, despite whether the employee is technically leaving early or not, that the system this business operates is irrational, as the job is computer based and the actual 'door' time has no relevance to productivity?

If you do, the logical extension is that the management are either incompetent or devious - or as just been pointed out possibly criminals depending on pay rates and deduction policy.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

I remember the good old times when a nine o clock start meant being at your desk and starting work at 9 and finishing dead on nine which meant by the time you actually leave the building its at least 5 past the hour some old companies in Yarmouth area still work that way

Maybe the OP gets to the gates by running to be logged at 2 min early in leaving or gets dressed to go home picks up bags etc and then turns off computer

 

[Mr D]

Exactly, and as the job is based on computer time ( they need to log off at 03:00 ) this is the irrational part.

Do you agree, despite whether the employee is technically leaving early or not, that the system this business operates is irrational, as the job is computer based and the actual 'door' time has no relevance to productivity?

If you do, the logical extension is that the management are either incompetent or devious - or as just been pointed out possibly criminals depending on pay rates and deduction policy.

Sorry, who introduced productivity?
The OPs post makes it clear they are being paid for time there.

At what point do they get classed as present? If shift is 7 hours (as an example) how hard is it to work out what 7 hours from that time is and leave at that time?

The fact people try and leave early is rather more on the employee than the clock system on the door.