Having a nightmare with troublesome travellers

[Doodle-Noodle]

Just wondered how anyone else has dealt with the problem I have at the moment with a large group of traveller girls coming into my shop being generally abusive, running around picking stock up, pretending to shoplift (or actually doing it, not sure whether they are actually stealing) intimidating me, upsetting customers, throwing bangers through the door ....
It's horrible. They first came in about 3 weeks ago but I got rid of them swiftly, then on Saturday 5 of them came in and really caused a nuisance. The shop was busy, I was on my own (as usual) I had people wanting a canvas personalise, somebody waiting to pay, somebody else needing help with some art materials and several people generally mooching. These 5 girls ran in, chucked stuff on the floor which went bang and then generally ran around the shop laughing and shrieking - really upsetting. They picked up bottles of paint (in plastic containers) and dropped them "accidently on purpose" on the floor, they didn't break or anything, then picked up beads and dropped them ..... just awful.
On Wednesday they were back - 7 of them this time. Same things again, eventually got them out and locked the door - once they'd gone I unlocked the door again but they came back. Tried ringing 101 but got no reply - got them out again, locked the door they stood on the other side chucking litter at the door and so I started putting the shutter down which they stood directly underneath....thought I'd better stop as I don't want to be charged with GBH.
Phoned the police (not 999!) and hve now got an incident number, they told me to ring 101 if they come back ....

Spoke to our local PCSO who was quite helpful and actually came and sat in the shop yesterday afternoon so when they turned up after school it stopped them in their tracks and they left pretty quick. He went about 4.30 and they came back - tried 101, no luck getting hold of anyone, message eventually told me to visit their website!
I know they'll be back again today - will try the police again to see if they will send a patrol car round at about 4ish, but any other ideas?

 

[Simon-M]

I think you need to just keep calling the police. It sounds awful. Not only is it a nuisance I bet it is intimidating as well. I hope you get it sorted. Sorry I can't offer any real advice really.

 

[maxine]

Have you got cctv to record any footage of outside so at least while you are waiting for the police you can be recording events? It might act as a deterent too ... maybe?

Good luck and hope you get it sorted too.

 

[Doodle-Noodle]

Thanks - I have got CCTV - the worst system ever & it costs me a fortune. I spent an hour last night trying to work out how to "rewind" the footage which will hve been (I think?!) recorded on it but gave up have failed completely. I don't do technology - my brain just doesn't work that way. Am trying to phone the police number again in the hope that I can get a bit of help. The group appears to be growing, I'm on my own again in the shop all day too which isn't nice when you're expecting invaders.

 

[B&H Digital]

Really am sorry to hear about all this, unfortunately you just get them type of people in the world - how they get a kick out of it I don't know, but it's just their sad little group thinks it's funny to go around intimidating others. Problem is with these groups, they intimidate you, but rarely get intimidated themselves

The last thing you want to do is cause a massive scene so they feed off it and keep coming back for more. But at the same time the police need to sort it soon because it may start scaring customers off (especially if you have a lot of girls/women coming into the shop)

I can't offer advice, apart from keep badgering the police, say you're intimidated and worried everyday going into work because they'll come back

Hopefully their stupidity will wear off soon

Good luck!!

 

[deniser]

I am so sorry to hear this. All I can suggest - which is what we did when we were targetted by shoplifters - is to lock the door and put a sign up asking customers to ring the bell. You can then see who is at the door before opening it, let them in, then lock it again.

 

[herewegoagain.]

Hello Doodle, I am really sorry that this is happening to you.... I have had a similar situation previously in a previous shop... but with drunks (we were opposite what turned out to be a really 'rough' pub (long story)....

What worked well for me was (trying to explain this right...! ?) there is an electro magnetic door lock system (not too expensive - I think mine was about £50 at the time) it is the sort of thing they have on entrances to blocks of flats...

Being magnetic it is in the locked position when the door is closed and you press a remote button to 'release' the door so the customer can open the door as normal - if you see the customer in time, they would not notice the difference !! but the magnet was quite strong and if these scum come back again it will give you that bit of extra time to put the bolt on...

Keep you chin up, dont let these vermin grind you down..... x

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Sorry to hear about the trouble you're having.

If at all possible, send me the details of your DVR (cctv system) and I'll write up an "idiot's guide" on how to use the product.

(Please don't take that personally ) - Loads of people who have CCTV installed don't actually get what they're using and struggle... I'm quite happy to help you out with that where possible

Or, I can send you a new DVR which is really easy to use

 

[Doodle-Noodle]

I am so sorry to hear this. All I can suggest - which is what we did when we were targetted by shoplifters - is to lock the door and put a sign up asking customers to ring the bell. You can then see who is at the door before opening it, let them in, then lock it again.

Goodness, that seems a bit extreme, I'd really not like to feel I have to do that, your situation must have been dreadful.
I have resorted to locking the door when I've managed to kick them out, and locked other customers in as a result!

 

[Doodle-Noodle]

Sorry to hear about the trouble you're having.

If at all possible, send me the details of your DVR (cctv system) and I'll write up an "idiot's guide" on how to use the product.

(Please don't take that personally ) - Loads of people who have CCTV installed don't actually get what they're using and struggle... I'm quite happy to help you out with that where possible

Or, I can send you a new DVR which is really easy to use

Really? Oh, thank you - that would be fab. We've been completely ripped off by our CCTV which costs me £60 a month to a leasing company but the company who supplied the system says they can't help us as we we're not insured even though the invoices we get from the lesing company say we re paying £10 month insurance. I'd love a new DVR which we could understand, but we've still got to pay for this one for another year.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

If you don't mind me asking, how much was your CCTV package and how many cameras do you actually have?

£60 per month seems extremely high... for a small shop like yours. (When I say small, I mean as in you're not a big wig high flying enterprise).

 

[maxine]

I really like the magnetic do-da idea and great to see you getting offer of help from authorisedaccess

I don't work in retail but have had fun and games over the years with other people's bailiffs / angry partners etc turning up on my doorstep.

Anything that avoids a potential drama and risk to you is the way to go IMO rather than confront anything yourself ... life is too short to put yourself at risk.

And I hope the police are responsive too

 

[Big Pete]

What a sad state the Uk is becoming .. Keep on at the Police and tell them to do there job .. thats what they are paid for,
Sounds like a nightmare .. the youth of today are just going from bad to worse ..

Hope you sort it ...

 

[Doodle-Noodle]

If you don't mind me asking, how much was your CCTV package and how many cameras do you actually have?

£60 per month seems extremely high... for a small shop like yours. (When I say small, I mean as in you're not a big wig high flying enterprise).

We have 4 cameras - the monitor they provided packed up about 2 years ago and they wouldn't replce it/fix it without us paying them £250 so I bought a 2nd hand one for £10 and it's fine.
We just pay £60 a month for 5 years , there wasn't an installation cost or upfront fee. OUr shop is 96sq metres.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Hi again...

A decent 4 channel DVR system without monitor should only cost £499 including VAT!

Thats the price that we sell them for over the counter - if it's over 2 years old now, it won't be up to today's standards, i.e. it'll probably be an Mpeg4 or Jpeg system which if you look at todays standards of systems is way off now.

4 years ago, (by comparison, we were selling 4 channel DVR systems on Mpeg/Jpeg at £499 including VAT) - The price hasn't changed, but the technology has.

at the cost of £60 per month, over 5 years I'd say that you've paid roughly £3100 for an installation.

The pricey part of CCTV systems unfortunately is still the monitor the BNC/HDMI/VGA connections on monitors hike up the price considerably normally around £195 + VAT per monitor, which is why we don't sell them with one.

We'd prefer to provide the information and cables to connect it all to a PC or normal TV.

 

[Furrtiv]

Sorry to hear about all that Doodles - is there not a friend who can sit in the shop with you? Not as a paid member of staff, but maybe just as a visitor, another pair of eyes? The presnce of another person who isn't obviously a customer might possibly make them think twice.
How about capturing their antics on a mobile phone? Would that be legal/allowable? Would one of your friends or regular customers help you out by doing this? I don't know how reasonable that sounds, but just trying to throw some ideas into the mix. I also like the magnetic door lock idea, that's a good one.
And keep on at the police, it's frustrating but they really are supposed to be helping you, you just have to keep on at them as it's what they're supposed to do.
With luck, these travellers will travel away at some point and stop bothering you and your customers.

 

[Deleted member 140422]

I can sympathise, it's a very difficult situation. The last thing you want is for things to escalate.

If they come after school, do you know which school?

If you can get photos/cctv images prehaps the PCOS can be persuaded to visit the school and put names to faces.

Make hassling you too much hassle for them

 

[tony84]

Might be worth you getting some pictures of them on CCTV, printing them off and going to see the DADs of the girls. Presumably you know where theyre from?

Just say to them you work hard for your shop, like they do (the men usually are grafters) they will probably understand and you dont appreciate them coming in and ruining your items can you stop it otherwise you will have to get the police involved.

We used to have a pub and generally speaking travellers were alright.

 

[PrestonLad]

Might be worth you getting some pictures of them on CCTV, printing them off and going to see the DADs of the girls. Presumably you know where theyre from?

Just say to them you work hard for your shop, like they do (the men usually are grafters) they will probably understand and you dont appreciate them coming in and ruining your items can you stop it otherwise you will have to get the police involved.

We used to have a pub and generally speaking travellers were alright.

Terrible story doodle. There's some good advice here. This advice is the best single piece I've seen. As I read the thread, I was planning to say something similar... but tony beat me to it!

Their families would probably be horrified if they knew what their girls were up to.

Hard to say, but if you can identify their families, then approach them cleverly. You might well feel safer having a special constable with you... but you might get more respect from the parents if you (and the PC) make it clear that you're not 'going legal' but want to let them know how antisocial the girls are being... and as tony said, make it clear that you work hard.

I suspect that the girls will have more fear and respect for their parents than they do of the law. But you always have the option to go heavy with the law if that doesn't work.

Good luck.

 

[Doodle-Noodle]

Thanks to everybody for your comments, I appreciate it.
They didn't come yesterday (Friday), I had quite a few friends turn up here to make me feel safer so that was good. I'll have another 3 or 4 friends coming in this afternoon plus hubby is coming in as an extra pair of eyes too, my son also said he would come (both hubby and son are 6'3 so look the part!). Fingers crossed!

 

[Magsite]

Keep reporting it to the police, don't hang up, everytime you get put through you will get an incident number, keep telling them your a repeat caller.

The police have less resources, so have to work smarter. If you a regular caller you will become a priority for their anti social teams, i.e PCSO's.

From what you describe it does sound like an issue that can be dealt with by PCSO's, if they start shoplifting or causing damage, then only the police can prosecute..

Speak to your CCTV provider and ask for some instructions. There's very little point in having CCTV if you can't access or use it.

 

[emmylou74]

awh what a nightmare! Hope it gets sorted soon. I don't have any advice at all, I have no idea what I would do if that happened here!

 

[AwayGamesTravel]

So sorry to hear about your problem. Some people are really rubbish. Don't know what to say.

Do you have any male family or friends that can sit in with you at the time they tend to come in? It might act as a deterrent.

 

[Doodle-Noodle]

So sorry to hear about your problem. Some people are really rubbish. Don't know what to say.

Do you have any male family or friends that can sit in with you at the time they tend to come in? It might act as a deterrent.

Yeah - hubby coming in this afternoon to keep me company and be another pair of eyes. I'm feeling sick now as I'm on my own and it's getting towards the time they made their appearance last week

 

[Trisha&ChrisPlant]

Yeah - hubby coming in this afternoon to keep me company and be another pair of eyes. I'm feeling sick now as I'm on my own and it's getting towards the time they made their appearance last week

Oh Doodle, have only just read your thread. That's just horrible - it would scare me too. I'm glad that you've had extra help this week. I will be thinking about you.

We are right next to the local kebab shop (I really wish they'd move!) and often we get yobs (or 'scrotes' as Chris calls them) marauding about outside and its just intimidating.

 

Where is your shop Noodle-Doodle? is there any shopping centre or town centre management you could talk to about the problem? If these people are causing you problems there is a good chance they are causing other problems in the area and if you could co-ordinate with management you might have more success getting them identified from wider area CCTV and maybe they'll help you get them banned or ASBOd from the area.

 

[Vectis]

Well, for a start I'd be ringing 999 rather than the other number. I'd certainly regard it as urgent and an emergency from what you've said, especially as it happened a number of times. Tell the police you're a woman alone, you've been threatened by these people etc etc - just don't play it down, if anything make it sound more serious (if you see what I mean?).

I think you're doing the right thing by getting a few large men in. If nothing else it will make you feel better. Try and get that PCSO to drop by at the time they usually turn up as well.

Personally, I don't think approaching the parents will do any good. Normally the parents of these types of kids don't care and I think you could get an awful lot more grief if you started approaching them. Let the police do it if necessary.

Oh, and investigate the offer on here of a better cctv. But you should go back to your current supplier if your current one isn't doing what it should do.

Good luck. Try not to let it get you down. They'll move on soon, hopefully.

 

[Subbynet]

Sorry to hear of your troubles!

I think you should let the neighboring shops know what has happened, ask them to keep an eye out for you, and likewise you for them. They're probably having problems with the group as well.

Also, if you are in the shop alone all day, a Panic Button system would be good idea, you can pre-program these with a message and the device can send it to a number of people. For example, set it to ring the Police and the shop next door - so that you have assistance already close by.

It means you're not tied up ringing the police while anyone is trashing your store, and you can deal with them knowing back-up is coming.

This is what parades of shops in a couple of the rougher estates (quite a distance from the main Police station) have done to secure themselves in this town.

 

[Doodle-Noodle]

Well, I survived today without any unwelcome visitors thankfully. My poor hubby has sacrificed his day off to sit with me from 1pm until I closed, which made me feel alot better.
I've spoken to the neighbouring shops, the Chinese Restaurant next door had the police out last night because of trouble with travellers so they know all about it too. I have a list of phone numbers programmed into my phone so I can call for help if needed, the PCSO is coming to the shop on Monday afternoon to give a visible presence and is also going to the local secondary school to get some names if he can - he was there when they came en masse on Thursday although they disappeared pretty quickly - so he knows who he is looking for..
We're not in a shopping centre or even a town centre location so there's no manager to contact.
I am treating this seriously and will carry on phoning the police every time they appear - I think I would really like a tasar gun though if anyone supplies ...........

I shall make the most of my day off tomorrow - stress free!!!

 

[fairdealworld]

I'm really sorry Doodle-Noodle and I understand how you feel as I've faced this situation on several occasions during my retail career, though never with Travellers though for the past seven years I've traded within a couple of hundred yards of a large Traveller site.

In our previous premises we had problems with an organised gang of shoplifters (drug addicts needing stuff to sell quick for cash) such people are very frightening and almost impossible to overcome if they arrive in a group and fan out.

Just recently our small suburban shopping 'village' has been plagued by a gang of young people, the leaders probably 17 to 18 and the 'followers' aged roughly 12 to 16 and mostly it seems excluded from school (the daughter of the lady in the flat upstairs is a useful informant!). They act in exactly the way you describe though they are definitely shoplifting not just mischief making, they race in, fan out, pick up everything in site, reach up and turn the music player to its maximum volume, fire insolent questions at whoever is serving in the shop, etc etc.

After a few very difficult days (which included a battle in the shop doorway as I tried to shut them out and the leader had his foot in the door and was pushing back) I had the inspiration in a difficult moment of calling to my upstaris neighbour - there is a flat above the shop - to bring her dog down. My neighbour leaned over her balcony in bewilderment followed by the head of her Rhodesian Ridgeback. The effect was quite dramatic, the gang made mocking comments about the dog while at the same time deciding it was time to leave. The joke is of course is that the dog is an absolute marshmallow who lives for the purpose of being hugged and kissed but she's big and she's got a very fine set of large white teeth.

It turned out they were plaguing the whole neighbourhood and particularly the small supermarket branch of The Co-operative across the road from us. They had so much trouble that they had to move all their beer and lager offer cases for the Olympics away from the entrance area. The Co-op had repeatedly called the police who turned up each time half an hour after the youths had disappeared with their loot. In the end the Co-op brought in a security guard whose sole role - poor man - was to stand immediately inside the door looking official but it did the trick and the gang has moved on as they do when a neighbourhood becomes too challenging for them.

I hate to say this to you Doodle-Noodle but don't place your hopes on the police. It isn't only that they are more and more stretched but in the scheme of things a small shopkeeper being harassed comes very far down their list of priorities. One of the reasons the police don't respond very well to this sort of incident is that actually there is very little they can do. They need evidence and much of the CCTV installed in shops (even when the owner does know how to use it!) produces images of little value. They can take the kids home if they catch them in the act and, in many cases, the parents will sympathise with their children, or yell at their children but then let them go out again five minutes later as the line of least resistance. If the police take more formal action it will involve them in days of paperwork only for the magistrates to bind the kids over and if they come up in court again they'll be bound over again and again and again.

My positive suggestions:

If you are okay with dogs borrow one for a while. Most dogs have no objection to being the centre of attention in a shop. The dog doesn't have to do anything but a surprising number of troublemakers are very afraid of dogs. It also doesn't have to be a particularly big dog. Some of the small breeds have remarkable 'woofs' on them and may actually be more assertive than larger breeds. One of the funniest films on YouTube (sorry I haven't got the link to it) is CTV footage of a pet Chihuahua repelling an armed raid on a small shop after the thieves threatened its owners, but a reasonably large (but docile) dog is your best bet, there is always a danger that the toy breeds actually WILL attack someone;

talk to other local business owners, it is unlikely you are the only one having trouble. Maybe there could be an agreement that you all held each others telephone numbers and anyone free came immediately to the aid of any other business owner in distress;

think about employing a security guard for a few days. Before you say you can't afford it, here is a tip. 'Security Guards' are reasonably large, they wear navy blue or dark green trousers and probably boots and those 'military' type sweaters obtainable from ex-military and camping type stores (the sort of sweater which will come in fine for gardening or country walking later) and they wear those plastic coated ID type cards on a lanyard and they stand in the entrance or just inside shops looking alert and official and carefully observing all who enter : - )

 

[Talay]

Scum like this should be met with a 12 bore.

It seems that plod cannot ever get their act together unless the civil rights of criminals are infringed and then they are there in their hundreds, most likely on overtime.

You have my deepest sympathy and I hope they leave you in peace soon (and don't move near me !).

 

[David A]

Scum like this should be met with a 12 bore.

They have - even a week ago, and got arrested for it. ARRESTED. Seems plod doesn't appreciate the level of fear that four intruders can wreck. Thankfully, common sense prevailed and the charges were dropped.

Nevertheless, despite no charges, the couple may now suffer should they wish to travel. As they have now been arrested, they will no longer come under the visa waiver criteria for visiting the USA, and will have to apply through the long-winded and costly full visa route.

 

[Jamie Heins]

I haven't gone through all the posts so apologies if this has been suggested.

Have you thought about having a panic button put in? I don't know how much it would be, but when I was younger and worked in retail we were told to press them if we ever felt threatened.

That way you don't have to be seen to be ringing the police and as they have no idea what could be going on they tend to turn up pretty quickly

That coupled with cctv evidence of their criminal damage and I'm pretty sure they'd be out of your hair!

Hope everything goes well.

 

[Page]

You do not have to let them in even - if you know there is a time they come then can you have someone man the door

Maybe hire security for a period - it costs but so does the stress and worry

 

[arcon5]

Get some pepper spray or some other defensive weapon - make help you feel a little safer

 

[simon field]

In my experience, the police do little about "travellers" because they're scared of them, simple as that.

I don't want to go into too much detail, but one incident I'm aware of when police were prodding around a local gypsy site looking for armed robbers resulted in an officer being followed home and six months later his house was burnt to the ground in the night.

The offspring of these sorts are brought up to fight, steal, and intimidate. Fact.

Charming eh?

 

[HertsCCTV]

Hi again...

A decent 4 channel DVR system without monitor should only cost £499 including VAT!

Thats the price that we sell them for over the counter - if it's over 2 years old now, it won't be up to today's standards, i.e. it'll probably be an Mpeg4 or Jpeg system which if you look at todays standards of systems is way off now.

4 years ago, (by comparison, we were selling 4 channel DVR systems on Mpeg/Jpeg at £499 including VAT) - The price hasn't changed, but the technology has.

at the cost of £60 per month, over 5 years I'd say that you've paid roughly £3100 for an installation.

The pricey part of CCTV systems unfortunately is still the monitor the BNC/HDMI/VGA connections on monitors hike up the price considerably normally around £195 + VAT per monitor, which is why we don't sell them with one.

We'd prefer to provide the information and cables to connect it all to a PC or normal TV.

I am in agreement that is way over the top for CCTV! Well for what you have.

We install a basic 4 channel system for only £650.00 fully installed and setup across the internet.

But what is done is done.

Carry on with the police, make sure you CCTV footage is of good quality to capture faces and such incase it comes that they need it to bring charges!

Also make sure you have CCTV recording signs up this will protect you also as there was a customer that we took over there system from another company that had an incident that could of prosecuted but the defence played the card that they had no warning that CCTV was recording and the CCTV evidence was thrown out.

 

[tony84]

The offspring of these sorts are brought up to fight, steal, and intimidate. Fact.

Charming eh?

Saying Fact at the end of a sentence doesnt make it a fact.

My experience of travellers in the main is pretty good (i used to own a pub very close to some open fields).
They would come in the pub, sit down chat amongst themselves. You would get the odd idiot calling them pikeys or something and then get into a fight... but thats the odd local person being an idiot not the travellers.

We even did a lock in for them on the odd occassion (still within our allowed hours), they were very appreciative, tipped the staff well and offered to buy myself and the other people who owned the pub a drink.... more than could be said for a lot of our regulars.

Out of the 5-6 groups of travellers we had only 1 group were less than desirable. They left the fields a tip, caused a nuisance and generaly were a pain in the.....

But that still means 4-5 of the groups were fine.

Yes they fight among themselves and with idiots that call them pikeys... who cares about that? Thats what they do, its not hurting anyone else. I wouldnt say none of them steal, but i know a lot of them work and work hard. Ive never come across any intimidation either.

 

[fairdealworld]

I have to support Tony84 in his comments about Travellers. In my previous (employed) professional career I worked with children with various kinds of disabilities. Disability is no respecter of culture, creed, race or class!

I've been in just about every type of home there is with people from every sort of background and that included Travellers. My comment on Travellers would be that just like everyone else they come in good, bad and indifferent varieties and overall they are no better and no worse than the rest of us! In general I had no problems working with Traveller families and I can remember a period when a local traveller site was constantly reported in the press as a 'no go' area though I and various specialist teachers and nursery nurses were routinely visiting the site and working with families without encountering any more difficulty than we encountered anywhere else.

There are Traveller 'elements' who will cause problems but there are elements who will cause problems in just about every section of society.

The issue Doodle-Noodle is up against is really unrelated to the fact that these girls are Travellers, you can get similar 'feral' groups from council estates, middle-class suburbs or the upper class types from public school backgrounds.

I know this doesn't help Doodle-Noodle but it is quite wrong to view 'Travellers' or any other group/race/class as problems in themselves.

Lynn

 

[cjd]

My son was a weekend worker in a shop that had these sort of problems. When it happens it tends to involve several shops along the street so in his case they all got together and hired a private security guy between them who would move from shop to shop as required.

They didn't need him after a month. If there are other shops around, you definately should get together to solve it.