Google suspended apps without warning or valid reasons

[rizbit]

Google suspended one of my android apps which had been previously checked and approved many times. It was on the store for just over 4 years.

It had about 12K active users, with 1-2 IAP sales per day. So people WERE using the app as it was intended to be used.

Then one day Google decided to suspended the app without warning because of 'deceptive behaviour'. Saying the app does not work as the title says.

The only changed made was we copied and older (previously approved) title and short description to the current one and submitted it. The title was still accurate and true to the app.

So that app has gone bust overnight and appealing makes no difference. They just say the same standard response to every email. Sorry we cant help you read this policy page".

They never actually tell you actual reason it was suspended. If their was a policy breach they just give it a broad heading without clarifying what the actual issue is.

This would not be an issue if you were just having fun, trying your luck or a sccammer / spammer. but if youre running it like a business spending thousands of dollars / pounds on marketing the app its a really big serious issue. All that effort and marketing spend is lost.

If you got sacked overnight from your job without good reason youd have a really good case to hold them to account and take action against them.

So what can be done about this?

 

[Darren_Ssc]

So what can be done about this?

Post on https://news.ycombinator.com/ and hope for the best, otherwise nothing. It's the way they operate I am afraid.

 

[rizbit]

Post on https://news.ycombinator.com/ and hope for the best, otherwise nothing. It's the way they operate I am afraid.

Thats like excusing bullies becuase "thats just the way they operate", or "thats just what cops do.."

What is this site anyway?

 

[Paul Norman]

Thats like excusing bullies becuase "thats just the way they operate", or "thats just what cops do.."

What is this site anyway?

I am not sure it is excusing them.

Google are a huge multi national corporation. They operate in a fairly automated way, which seems heavy handed at times.

You can try phoning them. Set aside an entire day for that. Eventually, you might get through to someone. If you do, I suspect they will be fairly helpful. But there really is nothing else you can do.

 

[Darren_Ssc]

What is this site anyway?

People who work for google don't read this forum, post on one they do.

I am not excusing anyone btw, just putting forward a solution that has been proven to work 'sometimes'.

 

[fisicx]

This happens every day. It’s nothing new and very difficult to reverse. Changing the title of the app flagged an alarm and you got binned. No humans were involved in the process. The only way to restore the app is to talk to a human. Which means picking up the phone and waiting.

 

[AllUpHere]

Your comparison with losing your job is a bad one. It's much more like you spending money developing a product, and then the big retailers deciding not to stock it. It's business; it's a risk we take.

 

[gpietersz]

Its not even like developing a product for big retailers. It is literally developing a product you can only sell through one retailer. Google and Apple have monopolies on the distribution of products for their mobile apps. Apple and MS are heading towards doing the same for their desktop apps (but it will be a while until they get there). They can, its obviously more profitable to have a monopoly, so they will.

If you put resources into developing these, you need to either accept the risk, or avoid it (do not develop it, or develop a website, maybe even a PWA, instead) or have a fallback plan.

All you can do about it is write to your MP. Depending on their sympathies couch it in terms of "big business are bullies" or "lack of a free and competitive market". Complain to the Competition and Markets Authority that they have too much market power. Maybe in another decade or so they might do something about it.

 

[rizbit]

I am not sure it is excusing them.

Google are a huge multi national corporation. They operate in a fairly automated way, which seems heavy handed at times.

You can try phoning them. Set aside an entire day for that. Eventually, you might get through to someone. If you do, I suspect they will be fairly helpful. But there really is nothing else you can do.

No developer support has not phone number, ive tried a few, it just goes to general play store help and they say they cant help you

 

[tsutton]

What about going direct to support?

https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/gethelp (sign in first)

 

[Mr D]

No developer support has not phone number, ive tried a few, it just goes to general play store help and they say they cant help you

Then until you do get to speak to someone who can help then you are stuck with their decisions. Which as has been said are likely automated.

Pretty sure most places that suspend sales do so without warning. They will usually have valid reasons which you agreed to. Or else you sue their ass off.

 

[rizbit]

tried this and some

What about going direct to support?

https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/gethelp (sign in first)

polite lady tells you she cant really help you its a job for policy team, you have to contact them via the email they sent you (which is the one that gets the more or less template responses from guy called "bumKeum" or "taylor")

 

[tan_lan]

If it is an error and not that the app actually did something bad, simply get a new developer account and resubmit.

 

[Darren_Ssc]

No developer support has not phone number, ive tried a few, it just goes to general play store help and they say they cant help you

I saw your post on HN, copy paste of your post here, no story, no info about the app, nothing to illicit any sympathy, no contact details in your profile. You almost made first page too, a wasted opportunity there.

 

[Maxwell83]

Thats like excusing bullies becuase "thats just the way they operate", or "thats just what cops do.."

No its not.

You don't enter into a contract with bullies and agree to their TOS, in the hope of making a profit.

 

[fisicx]

In the T&C it does say you need to keep the app up to date. Changing the meta data to a older name suggests you are uploading an older version which is probably why the app got removed.

 

[rizbit]

I saw your post on HN, copy paste of your post here, no story, no info about the app, nothing to illicit any sympathy, no contact details in your profile. You almost made first page too, a wasted opportunity there.

you mean on the news site you showed?

yeah i posted this thread on their

 

[rizbit]

In the T&C it does say you need to keep the app up to date. Changing the meta data to a older name suggests you are uploading an older version which is probably why the app got removed.

There are some apps that havent been updated in years and they still on the store getting los of downloads.

No in my case the app was not updated nothing was uploaded or change in the app. We didnt change the name of the app, just the title and short description (which was more or less the same, just different wordking for seo)

 

[rizbit]

No its not.

You don't enter into a contract with bullies and agree to their TOS, in the hope of making a profit.

you can be bullied by your boss who you enter into a contract into. having a contract or not doesnt really stop a buly bullying you

The play store is yes a means to get more exposure and users. You can make an app available off the store, you can make a web app and just bypass the need to use playstore, but in order to take advantage of the stores userbase you have to spend a lot of time and effort on compliance and making sure youre using all the right upto date components. But this effort can go to waste seeing the lack of control devs hav when disagreements occur

 

[fisicx]

Is this for the 3grams app? If so, everything about it suggests it's for doing baggies. You even say you can use it for weighing weed. I can imagine all sorts of alarms bells ringing.

It might not be the reason but it's something to consider.

 

[rizbit]

Is this for the 3grams app? If so, everything about it suggests it's for doing baggies. You even say you can use it for weighing weed. I can imagine all sorts of alarms bells ringing.

It might not be the reason but it's something to consider.

you do know that weed is legal in some countries, ive been to some that openly sell it on high street shop, in cookies etc....

ive seen public vending machines that sell weed products. dont think would be an issue

 

[fisicx]

you do know that weed is legal in some countries, ive been to some that openly sell it on high street shop, in cookies etc....

ive seen public vending machines that sell weed products. dont think would be an issue

Maybe not for you, but apple/google think differently. Read the developer terms. It’s all in there.

 

[gpietersz]

Lots of big tech companies ban lots of things that are perfectly legal. Hate speech, guns ads, alcohol ads, disagree with government advice, gambling, prostitution.......

It comes down to the same thing. They own the platform, they can do what they like.

 

[rizbit]

Is this for the 3grams app? If so, everything about it suggests it's for doing baggies. You even say you can use it for weighing weed. I can imagine all sorts of alarms bells ringing.

It might not be the reason but it's something to consider.

maybe but this is just one possible use of a digital scale app....

and on google it is not mentioned due to compliance.

 

[rizbit]

Lots of big tech companies ban lots of things that are perfectly legal. Hate speech, guns ads, alcohol ads, disagree with government advice, gambling, prostitution.......

It comes down to the same thing. They own the platform, they can do what they like.

"They own the platform, they can do what they like" i know what you mean and tbh they do but this is not a good thing in any way...

You know...its my car i can drive as fast as i want in it... and again this is like bullying then... Im bigger than you I can do and say what I like...

there has to be regulation to protect the developers too...

alot of developers have lost their livelihood when apps are suspended, most of the time they are not given a clear reason why....

 

[fisicx]

@rizbit not really sure what you want to happen. You may not like what has happened but it's very unlikely to get resolved. The suspension was automated. The decision is not going to get reversed however hard done by you feel until you engage with Google. As already suggested, you haven't done yourself any favours on ycombinator and anyone looking at your app will no doubt come to the same conclusion as I did. The fact you have bundled in a load of other functions does nothing to disguise the fact the app's main role is to weight very small quantities. It's not for cooking, in a lab, a jewelers or anything similar.

 

[rizbit]

thanks. i disagree all technology can be used ofr good or bad (what is considered bad is open to debate)

like the internet and the tv both can be used for 'bad things' most of us are aware of. Phones can be used to scam the elderly.

same with this some people have legit uses for scales. what that is is upto them, by providing a service or app to general public is open to abuse by some, but this cant be a reason to not provide it.

i have tried to engage with Google ive tried their social media and they said they contacted the policy team and they just told me the same thing, as in this was the 'reason' (vague as it is) for suspension and they can they cant help further.

If i could talk to someone on the developer support team that could help but ive not been able to find their number

 

[Darren_Ssc]

"you haven't done yourself any favours on ycombinator" im not sure what you mean.... do you mean i should add all links and app name there? for who?

People have managed to engage with senior staff of most tech companies for the simple reason that their story appears on the front page. You had that chance but didn't make the best of it.

It's not a method that is guaranteed to work but it has been sometimes particulalrly when the person posting is already an established member of the 'community' or has a story to tell which is particularly engaging and worthy of some empathy.

You seem to take the view that you have been hard done by when, in reality and reading between the lines, you had an app that was a bit iffy and flying under the radar. As was inevitable, you were caught out.

Time to move on and accept that building a business on someone else's platform is always going to be risky, especially in these times when you can be de-platformed for simply having political views that don't align, never mind any breach of the onerous terms and conditions that you willingly signed up for.

Maybe diversify your business a bit more so you are mostly the one in control of its destiny?

 

[gpietersz]

You know...its my car i can drive as fast as i want in it.

You can, as long as you stay within the law. There is, as yet (there might be in the future) no law of regulation governing what apps they allow.

 

[rizbit]

i got an email response today due to efforts from my legal representative.

Thank you for contacting Google. My name is xxxx, from the Executive Escalation Team.We received your request with regards to a recently suspended Play Store app. I'll assist you in the resolution process.

Google provides dedicated support for each of its products and services. The type of support (web-based, email, phone, or chat) varies for each product. Fortunately, we offer dedicated support for Play Store Developers.

To resolve your issue as soon as possible, please visit the dedicated support page. This is a hub for you to submit queries with the search function, or post questions. For your convenience I have linked below the most helpful articles for your issue:

• Why apps are removed
• File an appeal
  
• Support for Developers

If you have previously filed an appeal, please rely to this email with the following details:

• Appeals Claim ID Number.
• APP Package Name (e.g. com.foo.app)/Play Store Link
• Developer's name and Play Console ID Number
• Tier level of the developer (Alliance, Major, Core, Ecosystem, APE Managed OEMs & Carriers, etc)

Once we have more information, our dedicated support team will review the issue. When the review is complete, you'll receive an email with instructions for next steps.

To ensure the quickest response time and resolution, we also recommend that you send feedback through our dedicated feedback channels instead of by email.

I hope this extra information alleviates your concerns.

Now I am just thinking shall I just reply..

but not sure what "Tier level of the developer" means,

 

[rizbit]

I replied to the escalation team and it looked promising. I gave them further supporting evidence showing them the app works and a new video.

Again it looked promising as they said they would look into it.

After over a week got no reply. So I emailed them again just to ask if there had been any updates, got a reply same day saying more that they have already dealt with it and then proceeded to send me the same template responses the original appeals sent. Saying the app doesnt work and i should read their policies etc...

Further emails to them have got no response.

 

[rizbit]

ive not designed an app to measure drugs, even if i did there is no issue with that, as i mentioned before what you consider illegal is actually allowed in some countries.

its like in some countries women arent allowed to drive, but that doesnt mean someone cant invent a tool to help female drivers.....

enuff said

 

[gpietersz]

its like in some countries women arent allowed to drive, but that doesnt mean someone cant invent a tool to help female drivers.

Not in the US, which is where Google are based.

It does not matter whether you or I think Google should or should not ban the app. It is their app store, their rules.

The only case you would have is if Google were breaking the law themselves. For example, Epic Games are currently suing Apple and Google for anticompetitive behaviour in excluding their apps from app stores. Unless you can come up with a case like that and have the money to fund it, all you can do is beg Google to allow it back in.

 

[rizbit]

Not in the US, which is where Google are based.

It does not matter whether you or I think Google should or should not ban the app. It is their app store, their rules.

The only case you would have is if Google were breaking the law themselves. For example, Epic Games are currently suing Apple and Google for anticompetitive behaviour in excluding their apps from app stores. Unless you can come up with a case like that and have the money to fund it, all you can do is beg Google to allow it back in.

You are right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_Games_v._Apple
if you read this you can see that in fact Epic DID breach the terms of service, most devs are aware that you have to use the app stores own IAPS for purchases in the app, but they are using some other angle to bring legal action.

In my case I did not breach the terms of service. The policy states you cant publish apps that are functionally impossible. However we can prove the app does work and have sent them proof. in this case they are wrong.

At the start there were a few hundred apps maybe on the Play Store when it first launched. Some independent developers then jumped on it and thought why not try and make a buck or two on it.

Play Store has now grown into something else completely. It is now something on which peoples livelihoods depend on, business even big businesses rely on the app stores, the reason is simple, the phone developers more or less ensure their users are only using their app stores. there are other app stores like samsung, huawei and Amazon but likes of Apple and Google more or less ensure that the users use their app stores.

Is it a good idea to have to 'beg'?

And we know begging doesnt always work... For example we saw the videos of George Floyd.... He was begging the cops to stop... they didnt stop. Maybe not best of example of it shouldnt take someone to die for people to unite and stand up.

Its not a trivual issue. I spent years developing and upgrading the app, it had been approved many times over 4 years. So they had previously fully tested and approved the app. There had been no policy changes in recent times that would now deem the app 'functionally impossible'. I had spent thousands over the years in marketing the app.

Maybe there needs to be some regulation.

 

[fisicx]

ive not designed an app to measure drugs,

Not having a dig, but I'm curious about what sort of things you would weigh that a professional set of scales wouldn't be more suitable (eg: precious metals).

 

[rizbit]

Not having a dig, but I'm curious about what sort of things you would weigh that a professional set of scales wouldn't be more suitable (eg: precious metals).

TBH it is somewhat supply and demand, if there is a market it makes sense to provide the service.

But say your food scales broke and you were in the middle of baking a cake, you could use a digital scale app to substitute it. It wont be 100% accurate (but neither are any scales) and carry on with your cake.

The video we made shows two different object being weighed and was fairly accurate.

Its like a TV, it does what it does, what the end user watches on it is their business / responsibilty.

 

[fisicx]

That’s not a very convincing argument. Can’t really see me balancing 500g of sugar on my phone.

In any case, I didn’t see you weight the oregano or whatever it was which sort of means you didn’t demonstrate it actually works.

I suspect Google thinks the same which is why they have pulled your app.

Have you actually spoken to a real person at Google?

 

[rizbit]

The reason Google has given is that "it is not functionally possible" and attached a photo showing "0 grams" on the app. So maybe they tried to use the app and to weigh something and it showed zero, but ive explained that they have used it incorrectly. The app does work as seen in the video, whether its accurate or used only to weigh drugs is not the reason for suspension. Accuracy depends on how you use it, what end user uses it for is their responsibilty

Can’t really see me balancing 500g of sugar on my phone.

Thats fine. But then you wouldnt download the app, but the current 5K active users do use the app (and im sure not all are using it to weigh drugs, ive spoken to some of them on Facebook and they were not using it to weigh drugs) did download it for some reason. You have to understand they even allow prank apps on the Store, they dont necessarily have to work from what ive seen, ive seen ghost detectors, metal detectors and heart rate monitors that use the camera flash,

Have you actually spoken to a real person at Google?

To date I have been unable to speak over the phone to anyone from the Play Developer Team. Ive tried their social media, they make initial contact politely, which after a few days turns back to what appear to be automated "we cant help you further" responses.