Gambling business, maybe......

[Encantador]

I appreciate that this thread might turn into a thread about the rights and wrongs of gambling, but hopefully not.

I have stumbled on a way to make money from gambling (yeh, yeh, yeh) that for the last 10 months has worked. I am now considering offering an `advice` service to the general public.

The way it would work is via a website. The site would require potential customers to register, they would then automatically receive a pdf document explaining what it is we offer and how they can test it for FREE.

They would be required to log onto our website once each day to check the latest instruction, most days they would do nothing, on a few days they would then log into a different site, follow our instructions and that`s it. The whole thing will take 5 minutes a day max.

They will have 2-3 months completely free whereby they can follow our system, gamble with `pretend` money and see for themselves that it works. IF after the 2/3 months they want to carry on they will have to pay us a fee each month. This will mean they continue having access to the daily instructions on our site. Although they can continue gambling with `pretend` money as long as they want, most will have decided it is time to try it for real. They will need approx £500 of their own hard earned cash to get started. This is paid into their gambling account with a reputable bookmaker, not given to us.

It IS gambling which on the upside means every penny they win is tax free, on the downside they `could`lose their money, all of which will be explained in details in the pdf, together with the usual warnings about only using money they can afford to lose etc etc.

The only difference between the free trial and the real thing, is that they will have real money at stake. In the unlikely event that we have not shown them how much they could have won over the last 2/3 months, or they decide for whatever reason it is not for them, they just walk away and will not have spent a penny.

They pay us nothing until the end of the free trial and then they pay us by standing order, so they remain in control. We have not settled on a figure yet, but it will be in the region of £40-60pm

I know a lot of you will be skeptical, or have other moral/religious objections, but purely from a business point of view......

1) Is it a business? By that I mean, do we have to register as a business, open a business bank account etc. We are supplying information, for a monthly fee.
2) Would a Ltd Co be the best way to set up the business?
3) For the website developers out there, is it possible to block access so someone using a specific computer is recognised? We appreciate that once people have the information each day, they will pass it on to their friends/family etc, but need to try as best we can people signing up for the trial more than once if possible.

Thanks in advance.

P.S. Not that it matters, but it is nothing to do with horse racing or football and is not available on ebay.

 

[falconinternetlimited]

Personally I think it could work. I think it biggest hurdle will be to pursuade people, with your website and PDF, that you have a system that warrents their belief.

Good luck!

Rupert

 

[Aspect Investments]

If you are consistently making money from gambling (10 months), then surely its not gambling anymore.

Gambling is risking money when you are not sure of the outcome. If you are sure of the outcome, ie you will win, then you should be promoting it as such.

 

[MarkPearson]

Yes, I think it could work. I actually used to work with someone who was very good at online gambling and made his living from doing it.

As mentioned, your biggest challenge would be to convince people that its genuine.

The gambling industry is huge, and lots of money to be made.

Is it horse racing?

How simple is it for users to follow?

 

[Aspect Investments]

He did already say its not horse racing Mark.

 

[MarkPearson]

Ah, thanks....

I always quick read / scan the posts to get the basics.

I would be interested to know what area it is in...

 

[Aspect Investments]

I sounds like spread betting to me Mark.

 

[MarkPearson]

Ah, yes.

Then correct me if im wrong, but don't you require quite a lot of money risked to only make small profits?

The cost of your service will depends on what kind of profits your users can make....?

 

[Aspect Investments]

Ah, yes.

Then correct me if im wrong, but don't you require quite a lot of money risked to only make small profits?

Its actually the other way round Mark, you can make huge profits with very little outlay. If it is spread betting that is.

 

[Stephen Berry]

I

1) Is it a business? By that I mean, do we have to register as a business, open a business bank account etc. We are supplying information, for a monthly fee.
2) Would a Ltd Co be the best way to set up the business?
3) For the website developers out there, is it possible to block access so someone using a specific computer is recognised? We appreciate that once people have the information each day, they will pass it on to their friends/family etc, but need to try as best we can people signing up for the trial more than once if possible.

Meanwhile, back at the question ... ...

• yes it is a business, so you need the account to receive money etc
• I personally prefer the 'seperate entity' basis of the limited company - although our accountant friends will answer 'it depends', I like that one step removed from me as a person for most of my business
• techies please help!

Good luck
To encourage you .... the story of the start of Betfair ..... from the 'Strategies of the Cheetah' chapter .... this excerpt is part way through Andrew Black's story
In the late 1990’s as the IT industry growth was becoming less exciting and recruitment was suffering, Andrew devoted himself full time to his major past time – gambling – mostly on horses. This was an exciting time in the wider gambling market. Companies such as 888.com launched an on-line casino in 1996 and Partygaming started on-line poker in 1997. As a professional gambler with an IT background Andrew started to mull the idea of a betting exchange where gamblers could set their own odds for horses and thus bet against each other rather than perpetually betting against a bookmaker. Andrew met financier Edward Wray and in 1999 the idea began to take shape. Andrew and Edward formed their company in August 1999 and spent almost a year developing the proposition. The first market for which they offered the betting exchange facility was the Oaks horse race on 9 June 2000. 27 people bet. The idea worked, and most importantly, had public appeal.

 

[garyk]

Absolutely it could work, there are already sites doing this whether it be betfair trading, poker strategies etc. Charge an affordable fee and provide a system that is systematic and importantly easy to follow for any punter and you'll be away.

I'd sign up for it!

 

[3rigena]

I run a few gambling sites myself, and wish you good luck with your venture - gambling is exploding in the UK (thanks to Labour).

Getting punters won't be too difficult imo, if you advertise your product in the right places.

GO FOR IT!

 

[Fedora]

Hi there,

I joined this forum yesterday and due to the nature of my business, i have read this thread with interest.

In answer to your question, yes you can make this a business. Whether it is a successful business, will depend on how your address the following. . . . .

How are you going to attract customers? As i'm not sure of the betting medium that you are looking to pursue, i can only relate to my own experience. I advertise in the Racing Press and it is not low cost. You will need a substanial budget if your are going to advertise "trade" Do you have this in place?

What number of customers are you looking for? If you are going mass market and become very successful, will this suppress the odds on offer and reduce proitability for your existing clients? If you choose to work with a smaller number of people, will the charges in place ensure that the business makes a profit?

How resillient is your system/methodology? There are hundreds of services/tipsters out there who all claim fabulous profits, but the bookmakers still turn up to work everyone morning and boasting record profits and seasoned punters know this. You mention that you have been operating for 10 months, do you feel that this is fully tried and tested. This week, I did a consultation with a client who in 2005 made a profit of £10000.00 via racing. In 2006, he gave this all back to the bookmakes and lost a further £12000.00.

Will you be able to convince a prospective client that you are "proper" so to speak. When setting the business up, I was fortunate that i was approached by people who new me by reputation and positioned my website to do the same. Many of the people who approach you will have "been there and got the t-shirt"

Prospective clients can be hostile.

Why, if your system is so good are you selling information?
If you information is so good, why are your offering freebies?
How often do i need to bet?
What if i can't access your webiste each day, due to work committments, why should i bother?
Can you offer me a statement of account to verify what you say?
What if i don't make money?

Does your website answer these questions are can you answer them personally if you are put on the spot?

You are rightly concerned about the "sharing of infomation" This was and still is my biggest concern. My own betting is price reliant and the last thing that i need is money being bet on a horse from "friends" of clients. I work with a small number of clients and we have mutual trust. That trust takes alot of building from both sides and have turned prospective clients away, if what they say doesn't stack up. Can you do the same??

If you are offering information free to everyone for a trial period, what is to stop people just asking a friend to sign up and both continuing to enjoy the service gratis?

This isn't mean to put you off, but that is reality of the betting business.

I wish you the very best of luck

Regards,

 

I appreciate that this thread might turn into a thread about the rights and wrongs of gambling, but hopefully not.

I have stumbled on a way to make money from gambling (yeh, yeh, yeh) that for the last 10 months has worked. I am now considering offering an `advice` service to the general public.

The way it would work is via a website. The site would require potential customers to register, they would then automatically receive a pdf document explaining what it is we offer and how they can test it for FREE.

They would be required to log onto our website once each day to check the latest instruction, most days they would do nothing, on a few days they would then log into a different site, follow our instructions and that`s it. The whole thing will take 5 minutes a day max.

They will have 2-3 months completely free whereby they can follow our system, gamble with `pretend` money and see for themselves that it works. IF after the 2/3 months they want to carry on they will have to pay us a fee each month. This will mean they continue having access to the daily instructions on our site. Although they can continue gambling with `pretend` money as long as they want, most will have decided it is time to try it for real. They will need approx £500 of their own hard earned cash to get started. This is paid into their gambling account with a reputable bookmaker, not given to us.

It IS gambling which on the upside means every penny they win is tax free, on the downside they `could`lose their money, all of which will be explained in details in the pdf, together with the usual warnings about only using money they can afford to lose etc etc.

The only difference between the free trial and the real thing, is that they will have real money at stake. In the unlikely event that we have not shown them how much they could have won over the last 2/3 months, or they decide for whatever reason it is not for them, they just walk away and will not have spent a penny.

They pay us nothing until the end of the free trial and then they pay us by standing order, so they remain in control. We have not settled on a figure yet, but it will be in the region of £40-60pm

I know a lot of you will be skeptical, or have other moral/religious objections, but purely from a business point of view......

1) Is it a business? By that I mean, do we have to register as a business, open a business bank account etc. We are supplying information, for a monthly fee.
2) Would a Ltd Co be the best way to set up the business?
3) For the website developers out there, is it possible to block access so someone using a specific computer is recognised? We appreciate that once people have the information each day, they will pass it on to their friends/family etc, but need to try as best we can people signing up for the trial more than once if possible.

Thanks in advance.

P.S. Not that it matters, but it is nothing to do with horse racing or football and is not available on ebay.

There are many businesses that run on that model in one of my interest areas which is stock index futures trading, so there is no doubt that the model can work.

In terms of access to information, it is easy to provide the tecnnology to do what you ask: one of the interesting ways to do that at present is to build your access as an active ebook which sucks in content from your website from pages whose urls are disguised: the book will only run on the registered computer and can be remotely disabled. Look at armand morins latest ebook generator.

So that the "pdf book" and the information portal are one and the same thing, simply requiring registration/payment to access the later parts

It does not stop your customers emailing friends, if it is a simple piece of information you give them: eg long or short on a future! but too many of these businesses have existed for too long for this to be a killer.

Do operate as a limited co, with a good set of terms and conditions! look at your competitors for this.!

Hope this helps

 

[Encantador]

Thanks for the replies and Pm`s.

Gambling is gambling which means risk. We will explain in great details that they will lose money, no system is 100% accurate. They will have a few weeks where they can follow the system and will see that even with some losses, they would have made a healthy profit. They will then decide whether they want to risk their own money, we will also explain that past success is no guarantee of future success.

We will be aiming at Joe Public who wants to make money with little effort. As with most systems, if you want to put in the work, you can probably, eventually get there on your own, but the majority of people can`t be bothered.

It really will only take 5 minutes or less a day, the time of day is really irrelevant, so no problem for those that work etc.

As for questions about why we would sell the information, simple, it does`nt matter how many people are involved, so why wouldn`t we.
We will not be wasting time trying to persuade people to join, they can have the free trial, we believe that will speak for itself.

As has been mentioned, there are hundreds of systems being offered, the majority try and get you to pay first, often with the carrot of a refund if they don`t prove successful, we all know such guarantees are usually worthless. We have seen very few that offer a completely free trial.

 

[DataMiner]

Hi Encantador,

Hope your business is growing the way you'd like it to.

I endorse Fedora's earlier words of wisdom. Crazy though it may seem, all too many who are attracted to betting information are completely the wrong type of individual to make good use of it.

As with any area where money is concerned, the tipping industry has its share of sharks whose sole intention is to increase their wealth at the expense of yours. But - there are also a good number who are good at what they do, are absolutely sincere and get absolutely no pleasure from supplying information which results in their subscribers making a loss. Indeed, for some this can be more hurtful for them personally, than it is for their customers.

That said, many a good tipster can supply information which makes a profit over the month, only to lose subscribers who declare a dissatisfaction with the service. Despite the profitable tips, many of these subscribers will have LOST money betting the selections provided!

How can this be? Well, making money from betting is a very serious business which requires many attributes, not least of which is discipline - and greed is the great enemy of an individual's discipline. As anyone who makes a regular income from betting will tell you, losing bets are all part of the picture. Losers cannot be eliminated (although some tipping service customers think they should be in a paid service), they have to be accepted, AND that they do not conform to any predetermined order.

My own betting showed a loss over the final two days of May. Losses which continued over the first six days of June, making eight consecutive losing days in all. When it's your own hard-earned which has disappeared down the pan over such a period, it has a far greater psychological effect than when you're reading it in a line of text as here. Believe me, it takes discipline to shell out the same stake levels on day nine as you have been losing for more than a week.

The typical undisciplined tipster subscriber (we'll call him Denzeil) holds too much importance to very recent events and attempts to impose his/her own take on what's the best way to react. Tipster supplies two days consecutive winners, Denzeil thinks he could have made double the profit if his stakes had been twice what he had staked, so the next day's information is backed at double stakes. Sod's Law - It loses. Tipster still records half the winning still intact. Denzeil has wiped out all his winning at a (dumb) stroke!

Exactly the same happens in reverse too. Tipster supplies two days consecutive losers, Denzeil figures he would have lost less had he not staked so high. Next day's selection Denzeil bets half-stake . . . selection wins at good odds . . . Tipster's record shows previous day's losses recovered . . . Denzeil's record is not so good.

Worst thing is, Denzeil does not blame himself, he slates the tipster as no good, too many losers, etc., etc.

It's no different on the other side of the satchel either, (greedy) undisciplined bookies go bust!
and disciplined bookies just LOVE undisciplined punters.

Finally, and before you ask . . .
Yes, I make money from betting.
No, I am not, nor ever have been a tipster, nor have I ever subscribed to a tipping service.
However, I do know, and have known, a good few from both sides of that particular battleground.

DataMiner

 

[3rigena]

@ Dataminer:
with a nick like dataminer I wondered are you are mining bookies xml feeds looking for arbs etc?

 

[markc]

To the OP... if it is that good and works, why on earth have you not got a team of people doing it while you sip cocktails on a beach and watch the dollars roll in?

 

[office man]

sounds interesting why don't you try the members who have responded to this post as guinea pigs and we can give you a more accurate point of view.

 

[DataMiner]

with a nick like dataminer I wondered are you are mining bookies xml feeds looking for arbs etc?

No.

. . . and despite what you may have heard or read, no punters make a decent profit out of arbitrage betting. The payback percentage is tiny and such players are very vulnerable ~ it is made to sound much better than it is in reality. Supplying arb information, data and/or ebook "how-to"s will be more profitable, which is why so many are doing just that.

"Hedging" on the other hand (similar to arbitrage, but more style, grace & craft) is a better prospect. I know of individuals making good incomes using this tactic.

All my action is spread betting.

DM

 

[VertarUK]

I don't get it, if you've found a great method which really works, then why not just keep it to yourself and make LOADS of money rather than spending time on developing a business around it?

 

[DataMiner]

sounds interesting why don't you try the members who have responded to this post as guinea pigs and we can give you a more accurate point of view.

You're not alone with the above popular misconception, MarkC. If only it were that simple.

Almost all bookies will either (a) close or (b) severely restrict an account which is seen to be taking more money from them than they'd like. An example would be a successful 'hobby' punter I know when talking about the recent Stewards Cup (a big betting race)

Incidentally Bet365 have told me my maximum stake in this race is 75p and Betfred have limited me to 10p

There are ways to avoid such draconian action, but getting huge stakes on is often a myth. Spread betting firms, in general, (Sportsspreads excepted) allow a higher level of trading without fuss, and of course in theory Betting Exchanges (Betfair, et al) have no possible reason to close or restrict a winning account. Even with exchanges you're restricted to seeing the price you want at the equity level you require.

"Honest" providers of betting information do so for various reasons: Most people appreciate (if not crave) positive feedback for their achievements. The form student though, by definition, works alone and his/her only measure of success is money in the bank. Often though this is not enough, human congratulations/feedback is the icing on the cake ~ and you rarely get a genuine pat on the back from your bookie!

Stake restrictions as mentioned above is another big reason for selling information. Lower stakes are easier to get on and are less conspicuous. So if the accomplished form student can supply a few others with the information, this additional income allows him/her to play with lower stakes yet still achieve the same target. It also has the added benefit of showing-off what he can do (positive feedback) and dampening the volatility inherent in his chosen profession.

Volatility?
My target is to make a 500 points per month gain ... day 2 of this month and I was 777 points down. Clawed around 500 points of that back by Teusday of this week, only to be hit again with a bad day again yesterday (Wed 8th August). This morning I am back to square one, minus 740 for the month. More than 20 days to go yet though, at the end of which I fully expect the roller coaster ride to have swung back in my favour. But then again . . .

Ask any stock market trader. He has the ability to accept losing days as part of the bigger picture. Some trades will win, some will lose ... but so long as the underlying trend is positive, all is well.

Not everyone has the stomach to cope. And if it's a steady income your after you don't speculate in the money markets (equities or sports). Income? Certainly, Steady? No chance!

DM

 

[Encantador]

I don't get it, if you've found a great method which really works, then why not just keep it to yourself and make LOADS of money rather than spending time on developing a business around it?

Why would you not?

If we assume that the system works and almost anyone can easily make money and they are prepared to pay us £50pm for information that is easily supplied to them, why wouldn`t we take their money??

 

[barginboyrob]

There are all ready many other sites offering this I think..none that I have come across though are that professional (if your talking about matched betting)..

 

[Encantador]

There are all ready many other sites offering this I think..none that I have come across though are that professional (if your talking about matched betting)..

No, not matched betting.

 

[ken_uk]

I dont quite understand.

Surely betting is always worked out so its in favour of the house, ie the booky always wins in the long run.

If the system is a 'loophole' and a working one, then surely all the booky has to do is sign up, find out the loop hole then close it down?

 

[DataMiner]

I dont quite understand.

Surely betting is always worked out so its in favour of the house, ie the booky always wins in the long run.

If the system is a 'loophole' and a working one, then surely all the booky has to do is sign up, find out the loop hole then close it down?

Being a bookie is not a passport to riches, if it were why would anyone want to start any other business?


Odds in favour of the house refer to casinos. Odds in favour of the bookie (i.e. he cannot lose) is only true if he can take the right amount of stakes, on all the runners in a race, at the right odds. The only way to "close" a loop-hole would be to reduce the odds to make it uneconomic for the better to bet. But a bookie does not set the odds in a horse race, the public do by the wieght of their money.


Bookies cannot close "loop-holes", they simply close the accounts of winning punters.

The casinos dislike & ban Blackjack card counters. They'd like it put about it is because they're cheating . . but they're not, they're just playing with intelligence to swing the odds in their favour.
Simply another loop-hole that can't be closed, so the powers that be close down the punter instead.

DM

 

[Encantador]

Hi Guys,

It has taken longer than expected (as it always does), but we are now ready to move to the next stage.

It is spread betting Dow Futures.

The system is sound, one change from the original post is that it is now a EOD (end of day) system. This means we need to supply our members with information once per day. This can be by posting on a web page, sending an email or text message or maybe all three.

As has already been mentioned, there is no way to stop people passing on the information, what we need to try and do is at least stop people easily being able to just keep signing up for the free trial.

We have decided to create a DVD to accompany the PDF, the DVD will show people exactly how to place a trade.

Fear and greed are the emotions you have to be able to control. We will `suggest` a conservative money management strategy, whether people decide to follow it is up to them.

So, the technical bit, we need a website designed/developed that explains what we are offering, allows people to sign up for the free trial, receive alerts daily and eventually pay their subscription.

The alerts will be sent/available around 9pm each day the market is open. Most days there is no action to be taken, we are either already in a trade and staying in or we are out of the market. It literally does only take a maximum of 5 minutes a day.

Any suggestions/ideas for the best way forward on the website would be welcome.

For anyone who does not need to be guided through obtaining/using s spread betting broker demo account and would like to receive out trade alerts by email free for 6 weeks, send a pm with name and email address.

 

[garyk]

Well I think you need a landing page which outlines your offer with some compelling copy and has an easy opt-in form (name and email). Then you can use an autoresponder service such as aweber or getresponse.com (I use and prefer getresponse) to mail to your subscribers once a day.

In terms of promotion a pay per click campaign (done well) will get you instant traffic and should generate some sign-ups.

Do you offer information for the layman? I do quite abit of sports betting/exchange on betfair as well as poker but never done spread betting on the financial markets.

Cheers

Gary

 

[Encantador]

Thanks for the reply.

We are aiming specifically at the layman, hence the DVD. The fact that you can practice using s demo account means there is no risk. We will `suggest` that no one tries using real money until after the free trial period (probably 6 weeks), long enough for them to ......

a) Learn how to trade.
b) See how good the system is.
c) Decide if they are prepared to risk their own money.

IF they follow the instructions, trading is simpler than using betfair, matched betting and numerous other gambling opportunities.

Thanks again.

 

[MH1]

It would be sensible to also show how to put stop losses on their virtual trades to limit losses, and also when to cash in their position to secure any profits.

Spread betters tend to be very greedy

 

[Encantador]

Yes, when indicating a trade a stop loss will be part of the instruction.
We will tell members when to exit with either a `Exit` or `Change Direction` alert.

There will be some who decide not to follow our instructions to the letter, there is nothing we can do about that.

 

[Encantador]

So, the technical bit, we need a website designed/developed that explains what we are offering, allows people to sign up for the free trial, receive alerts daily and eventually pay their subscription.

The alerts will be sent/available around 9pm each day the market is open. Most days there is no action to be taken, we are either already in a trade and staying in or we are out of the market. It literally does only take a maximum of 5 minutes a day.

Any suggestions/ideas for the best way forward on the website would be welcome.

I need for people to be able to sign up for a free trial simply and quickly. Once the free trial expires I need to a) have a way for them to pay and b) stop them being able to sign up for another free trial if at all possible.

If I can post the daily update the site, send it by email and text, all from the site, that would be perfect. Might start with just posting it on the site if that is simpler.

Thanks in advance.

 

[C.Pearse]

One of the problems I think you are facing is the following:

If I wanted to sign up, I could sign up as my friend registering their details and create a free Hotmail email address to receive the free trial. I could then go on to do this with another 4 or 5 friends before I sign up in my own name, then I would have to eventually start paying under my own name.

There are a few steps I think you could take to deter people from abusing the free trial system.

I think at the very least you need to collect their first name, surname, email address and postcode. They can then select their address from an auto-populated list.

I would only allow one account per surname per address. I would then ask them to register a card which you will start to debit after the free trial. It is up to them to cancel before the free trial ends.

The card billing address must match the address they signed up with. I would only let them use the card on one account.

So if they were to sign up in a friend's name they would have to register their friend's card and they cannot use their own.

I would log the IP address of each sign up so you can see if someone has signed up twice using different addresses with the same IP address.

I would only let them use their email address on one account and the same goes for their mobile number.

To stop them handing out their username and password, you could limit account access by IP address or set a maximum number of logins per day. You could allow them to reset the maximum number of logins per day by having them click a link sent to their registered email address.

On one of my websites, I update information daily around 11PM. I fill in the form and the information goes out automatically to anyone with an active subscription via email and also via SMS to anyone who has paid for the service.

 

[Encantador]

One of the problems I think you are facing is the following:

If I wanted to sign up, I could sign up as my friend registering their details and create a free Hotmail email address to receive the free trial. I could then go on to do this with another 4 or 5 friends before I sign up in my own name, then I would have to eventually start paying under my own name.

There are a few steps I think you could take to deter people from abusing the free trial system.

I think at the very least you need to collect their first name, surname, email address and postcode. They can then select their address from an auto-populated list.

I would only allow one account per surname per address. I would then ask them to register a card which you will start to debit after the free trial. It is up to them to cancel before the free trial ends.

The card billing address must match the address they signed up with. I would only let them use the card on one account.

So if they were to sign up in a friend's name they would have to register their friend's card and they cannot use their own.

I would log the IP address of each sign up so you can see if someone has signed up twice using different addresses with the same IP address.

I would only let them use their email address on one account and the same goes for their mobile number.

To stop them handing out their username and password, you could limit account access by IP address or set a maximum number of logins per day. You could allow them to reset the maximum number of logins per day by having them click a link sent to their registered email address.

On one of my websites, I update information daily around 11PM. I fill in the form and the information goes out automatically to anyone with an active subscription via email and also via SMS to anyone who has paid for the service.

Thanks for the reply. Yes, you have identified the problems and I am hoping technology and a good developer can produce the solutions.