EU IOSS Signup

[romeo b]

All marketplaces will collect and remit tax on sales regardless of your VAT status, as long as the value is under €150.

Over and PDDP via RM becomes useful.

I know - I just mean: am I expected to send stuff via PDDP service when someone buys off us via eBay, or is that an unnecessary method given eBay have sorted the VAT side of it out, so no need for me to pay the 50p for using RM's PDDP service? (Is the 50p surcharge essentially the paperwork cost of them collecting/remitting the tax therefore confirming it "cleared" when I use PDDP via our own website?)

So: if someone buys via my website, I collect the VAT from them at checkout stage, RM then charge me the VAT and I dispatch it via their PDDP service - item is sent using (presumably) RM's IOSS no, incurring the 50p charge for doing so. Customs information shows RM are the IOSS handler and they've paid the VAT.

If someone buys off us on eBay, no obligation to use PDDP - send normally - VAT has been paid - eBay have passed their IOSS to RM via Click/Drop portal. Customs information shows eBay are the IOSS handler and they've paid the VAT. Regular Tracked/Signed/Airmail services would mean item is delivered as normal, given VAT paid.

Is that right?

 

[JPMiddleton]

No, if you send via PDDP for sales on eBay you will be paying the VAT when you don't have to, as eBay already did.

 

[romeo b]

No, if you send via PDDP for sales on eBay you will be paying the VAT when you don't have to, as eBay already did.

Thanks. The reason behind asking this was because someone said eBay had insisted on sellers sending using DDP services from July 1st but I did not see any mention of this, and as you say you'll be paying twice.

So (assuming RM sort their stuff out in the next few days) I'll operate on two lines of customer experience from July 1st:

1) To sell via eBay - send via normal services we already use - eBay have done the 'clearance' work and collected the VAT.

2) To sell via Website - charge customer the appropriate VAT, remit this back to RM (they bill us etc), then dispatch using an RM PDDP service (ideally the cost will be in line with the current charges) and pay their 50p fee.

I can live with this, and will have to add a bit onto website prices to counterbalance RM fees, which are still TBC I guess.

(Assuming anyone from the EU even bothers to order from us again, given it's now plus their VAT rate)

One thing I had not considered was each country actually being ready for us to send from UK using a PDDP service (as per the info on the RM site linked previously). This might be another issue, time will tell I guess.

I know this thread has waned from "EU IOSS" to the above RM queries, but in reality it's very closely linked, given people may not even need to use any IOSS portals or worry about it as much, given that the bigger marketplaces seem to be handling their commitments and the smaller biz options are opening up in terms of RM allowing you to use them to use their PDDP services. The stress and confusion from my part on page1 has gradually lessened after you guys have posted easy to follow information. Sadly there is so much out there and so much contradictory information, with businesses wanting you to just use them as an intermediary that it's hard to find the black and white facts.

I feel less stressed with each plain English reply I read on here. I am still going grey/bald with it all though.

 

[JPMiddleton]

Does that person have a link to that advice? Unfortunately it’s likely that the staffer did not understand how IOSS is going to operate, I had the same issue with service agents at DHL.

 

[romeo b]

Does that person have a link to that advice? Unfortunately it’s likely that the staffer did not understand how IOSS is going to operate, I had the same issue with service agents at DHL.

I read it on here I think. eBay themselves have not answered any of my communications relating to IOSS for over 3 months now.

RM have also not replied to anything. I did speak to them about 6 weeks ago on the phone and they couldn't advise on anything I asked.

Probably inundated with the same queries to be fair.

 

[Morning]

Do you have a link for this on the Italian Revenue site, i've been struggling to find it.

www dot agenziaentrate dot gov dot it/portale/web/english/ioss-vat-return

I emailed them about my application on Friday, I'll post here when I hear back. I'm not confident though.

 

[DefinitelyMaybeUK]

2) To sell via Website - charge customer the appropriate VAT, remit this back to RM (they bill us etc), then dispatch using an RM PDDP service (ideally the cost will be in line with the current charges) and pay their 50p fee.

Yes, hopefully the services charges will be in line with existing ones, but the new codes (MTE, MP7 etc) listed here aren't priced anywhere yet as far as I can see:

https://www.royalmail.com/business/international/guide/delivered-duties-paid/ioss-faqs

 

[JPMiddleton]

Those are codes we use already so I think it’s probably going to be account specific based on volume.

 

[fallschirmjaeger]

https://www.royalmail.com/import-on...Ch077AaQEAAYASAAEgImzfD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds#pddp

This may be useful!

 

[romeo b]

Yes, hopefully the services charges will be in line with existing ones, but the new codes (MTE, MP7 etc) listed here aren't priced anywhere yet as far as I can see:

(had to remove your link)

One thing I did notice was it said:

Can I use IOSS on OBA? No – IOSS only operates on the new core products which are only available on shipping solutions.

We use Click & Drop and have an OBA, and most stuff we dispatch from is from:

OLA - International Standard on Account
OTA - International Tracked on Account
OSA - International Signed on Account
OLC - International Tracked&Signed on Account

We have loads of other shipping services available to us, but have been told the above 4 mainly apply to us (being non VAT reg'd). Or am I getting this all mixed up again, and the above guidance doesn't even relate to using RM's Click & Drop / OBA portal?

I've emailed almost everyone at RM and still not had a reply. Can't get through to a human. Had no emails or anything. We spend about £15k/year with them to put into context, if this changes anything. No idea what to even do if the above highlighted bit changes how we operate again.

Why is it so difficult for small business to just continue shipping low value stuff without all this hassle?

 

[DontAsk]

It does sound good, doesn't it. When they first announced it in Jan, I'm pretty sure it was a 5k annual spend threshold for use.

It still is if you look at the page Schmexit linked to https://www.royalmail.com/business/international/guide/delivered-duties-paid-ioss . You have to scroll down and open the requirements section.

 

[DefinitelyMaybeUK]

Those are codes we use already so I think it’s probably going to be account specific based on volume.

Yes, we have those available via click and drop, and currently use the non-ioss equivalents MP1 etc. which are defined in the published rates. But I can't see a rate for MP7 anywhere and the last issued rates were May 1st. Are you saying you've been specifically quoted a MP7 rate in the same way as a Tracked24 for instance?

 

[JPMiddleton]

Yes. We’ve been using MP7 on a country specific volume rate for a year or so. Each country is a different rate.

 

[Foxxycarr]

Hi all, newbie here in the same boat as most of you.

One question I have before I rush out and sign up for anything in EU would be does the UK Limited Liability status for your company (if you are Ltd) stay in place legally if signing up in an EU country or do you all of a sudden become personally liable?

 

[schmexit]

So are Royal Mail offering the same service as Taxamo, but at 50p instead of £2 per parcel? Or are they completely different services?

I've been reading about this stuff for months and I still don't get it.

 

[BIBICO]

As a clothing company we have get returns, the good thing with ioss is we can put in a reverse charge on our ioss vat return when we get a order return and therefore don't lose any vat we had to pay on the original order. With the PDDP service I don't believe we will be able to do this? If anyone has any info on this please let me know.

 

[David Lovell]

www dot agenziaentrate dot gov dot it/portale/web/english/ioss-vat-return

I emailed them about my application on Friday, I'll post here when I hear back. I'm not confident though.

I just tried to register on Italy's portal and got this:

• YOU CAN'T ENTER THIS KIND OF REQUEST (REGISTER FOR IMPORT OSS). YOUR COUNTRY HAS NOT CONCLUDED AN AGREEMENT ON MUTUAL ASSISTANCE WITH THE EU.
  

 

[David Lovell]

Yes. We’ve been using MP7 on a country specific volume rate for a year or so. Each country is a different rate.

We've been using this code for around 1 month and the rates are much cheaper than the previous code we were using - MP1.

 

[romeo b]

So are Royal Mail offering the same service as Taxamo, but at 50p instead of £2 per parcel? Or are they completely different services?

I've been reading about this stuff for months and I still don't get it.

The problem I have found is Royal Mail are simply ignoring all communication and questions.

I asked Taxamo if they have a checkout plugin or anything to remit/account for you, but it seems to just work on the basis that you get the tax off the buyer, Taxamo bill it to you and you send stuff using their IOSS number, and it costs you £2 per transaction. But no idea in reality how this works with the services in the Click/Drop list. (RM are again ignoring me and I can't get hold of anyone). You might as well use RM to do this, at 50p. I think.

Read my posts above, it sounds like using RM and the PDDP services will work out much easier, but it's just how it will work needs clarifying.

I imagine it's going to work like this:

1) Buyer pays you via your own website including their country VAT rate.
2) You are billed this same VAT by RM.
3) You send the item using the RM PDDP service, at a cost of 50p.
4) You've collected the VAT, paid it back to RM, and paid the fee. Therefore good to go.

Item is then cleared and no duty will be owed (if it's under the €150 threshold).

The way RM and everyone is wording everything isn't helping. It's simply not plain English or understandable for the basic small business owner.

Side note: I'm unsure which services we are even supposed to be using going forward and whether our Click/Drop with OBA is ok to use with this PDDP services. They mention IOSS and PDDP but I don't know if they're mentioning using IOSS as something separate and then just using RM for the dispatch. It's baffling. I don't intend to use any IOSS portal or panel or involve a 3rd party to sort it out for me. I want to just remit the tax back to RM and use their services to send stuff out.

I want to just send <£50 items from our own website though Royal Mail without hassle. I'll pay whatever VAT etc and the fee (I can just make my checkout collect VAT for EU rates, and UK at 0% as I'm not UK VAT reg'd), but I want clarity on if I can do this. We're a week off, and nobody has a clue. I have tried to speak to RM and emailed every OBA/support email I have, and not had as much as a reply. Can't get hold of anyone on phone, account manager (well 'Field Engineer' who helped me) from a few months ago seems to have left (emails bounce back), and the "New business" contact who set me up last year has also left.

We are a UK biz, not VAT reg'd, and we only send stuff out - we don't import items from overseas. Clarity is required desperately about what to do.

We need an absolutely basic "this is what you need to do, step by step, to carry on selling on your own website and send using RM" bullet point list. Everything at the moment is 50% guessing, 50% reading on here.

I don't want to beg... but us, and many other businesses, are begging for a step by step simplified process of "just sending stuff with Royal Mail as we already were and sorting the tax side out"

You know what? We don't even really need to know about IOSS and intermediaries if the couriers just simplify the process. I want to produce, create and dispatch. Not involve myself in IOSS, Tax, Portals, Remittance etc. Otherwise every business in the UK who sends stuff overseas is going to be as stressed as me about it, and the UK-overseas trade will drop off a cliff and everything will suffer.

I can't be alone here, no?

 

[Morning]

So are Royal Mail offering the same service as Taxamo, but at 50p instead of £2 per parcel? Or are they completely different services?

I've been reading about this stuff for months and I still don't get it.

Taxamo Assure and Royal Mail PDDP are not the same kind of service.

To use the IOSS, VAT has to be collected at the point of sale. Therefore, when a business uses Taxamo Assure, the sale is actually made on Taxamo's platform and Taxamo collects and remits VAT through the IOSS. Technically, Taxamo are the 'deemed supplier', just as Etsy and Ebay are a 'deemed supplier' for their sellers and must collect VAT on sales to EU customers. If a packages has an IOSS number in the electronic data, there won't be any customs procedures.

With PDDP, the IOSS is not used. When a business collects VAT on a sale and sends a package by PDDP, technically they're not collecting VAT at the point of sale - they're collecting an amount of money that just happens to equal the VAT on that sale. The VAT is actually paid by the end postal service on import, who will then bill Royal Mail, who will then bill the sender. Billing might not happen in that order, but that's the what's happening.

So they're totally different services, doing vaguely the same thing under 150 euro. Only PDDP will collect VAT over that.

I just tried to register on Italy's portal and got this:

• YOU CAN'T ENTER THIS KIND OF REQUEST (REGISTER FOR IMPORT OSS). YOUR COUNTRY HAS NOT CONCLUDED AN AGREEMENT ON MUTUAL ASSISTANCE WITH THE EU.

I guess that's that then. As I said, I put my request in before Ireland had received the update on which countries had a MAA of suitable scope, and I assume Italy got the same update.

 

[JPMiddleton]

Shouting in caps too, I guess that's emphatic.

Our Royal Mail sales contact ( I won't call her an account manager as she doesn't seem to do that anymore) literally has no idea what is going on. Everything she has learnt about it, is from customers. She just keeps getting told to tell businesses to wait until July 1st.. seriously.

 

[Dom Boynton]

Reading this with interest...thank you all for your contributions and for feeding back the research you have conducted. Just to throw another spanner in the works, some of the shipping agents (we use Transglobal Express) will no longer accept shipments from customers if they are not IOSS registered and can submit the IOSS number when processing shipping in order to prove to them that the VAT is already paid. Therefore, all of the more cost effective shipping services to EU countries are no longer accessible (we were paying about £8 shipping for a parcel to Germany which would cost about £13 with RM using OLA for example). We can still send by 'premium' services such as FedEx Next Day through TGE as they will still collect duties on delivery as they used to.

 

[JPMiddleton]

Interesting. The only difference between IOSS and how the HMRC implemented their 'version' on January 1st was that the EU made it optional, perhaps these companies are assuming sooner or later it will be compulsory to use IOSS into the EU also.

 

[Dom Boynton]

From what I have established, the APIs required to integrate IOSS intermediaries (such as Taxamo) into online shops is well behind schedule. Whilst you can insert the code yourself, there appear to be very limited options for ready made plug-in APIs which allow EU VAT to be calculated and applied at your checkout, so the customer can see and pays the VAT along with with the transaction and your shipping cost with the whole thing dealt with immediately and cleanly in the one transaction. I am sure that they will develop the APIs over time, but this does not help us smaller businesses in the meantime...If you are not confident in inserting code into your online shop, you will have to hire a developer. and if you operate several different platforms and online market places......

 

[Morning]

Interesting. The only difference between IOSS and how the HMRC implemented their 'version' on January 1st was that the EU made it optional, perhaps these companies are assuming sooner or later it will be compulsory to use IOSS into the EU also.

I'd say the intention is for it to be always optional, considering 'special arrangements' are part of the changes. These streamline how postal carriers handle DUP imports; they no longer have to pay VAT and duty before the end customer does, meaning less refund faff if the package is rejected by the customer due the import fees. It could be that these couriers don't have their 'special arrangements' sorted yet, so have put a hold on non-IOSS consignments. [Edit- mind you, SA are optional, so maybe not. But I still think IOSS being optional is here to stay, given all the other changes.]

It all contrasts pretty starkly with how UK Gov made VAT registration compulsory, but presumably removed the requirement for Royal Mail to collect import VAT on any consignments under £135, because RM no longer do that. I know I've mentioned that before, but it annoys me how they opened up the UK to VAT non-compliant sales from foreign sellers, just as we left the transition period and EU sales nose-dived.

 

[GuyMor]

Hi all,

Super helpful information, thanks for that!

We're vat registered, UK based e-commerce with an AVG order value of £100 to the EU.
we sell worldwide and at the moment send it DAP/DDU everywhere. In theory, we should received lots of complaints about how the customers are being charged duty + vat but in reality, it almost never happens. On the flip side, even though are products are of eu origin and are duty free, every time we do send DDP we get charged duties and now have to chase for months...

Furthermore, currently we charge the same price no matter where you are.its £100 for a British customer and a Polish one. We use the "extra" we make in international orders in subsidising shipping rates and returns.

So, my questions:
1. Say we sign up for this IOSS, and start sending it DDP. We then lose margin on the sale as we cannot recoup that vat. Do we need to register for a commercial entity in the EU to collect the vat and offset it? Is that process complicated and costly?
2. What does your gut tell you if we just keep things as they are? Are the EU going to magically charge vat and handling fees to every parcel entering the EU?

 

[JPMiddleton]

1. Say we sign up for this IOSS, and start sending it DDP. We then lose margin on the sale as we cannot recoup that vat. Do we need to register for a commercial entity in the EU to collect the vat and offset it? Is that process complicated and costly?

2. What does your gut tell you if we just keep things as they are? Are the EU going to magically charge vat and handling fees to every parcel entering the EU?

1. DDP and IOSS are different. DDP is simply a postal service and can be done without IOSS registration. If you want to register for IOSS you will (currently) need a third party intermediary, at least for now.

2. Yes. Almost certainly.

 

[romeo b]

2. What does your gut tell you if we just keep things as they are? Are the EU going to magically charge vat and handling fees to every parcel entering the EU?

I did wonder this, too. We are non-VAT reg'd and average order value is about £20. 95% of stuff is sent in a card-backed standard C5 letter. I did wonder what would happen. I have only had one person tell us they had a charge of €30 on a £35 order including postage. No idea what happened, told them to query it but they just got abusive so I ended it there. But, VAT isn't coming into it just yet I don't think.

So the problem is a lot is being delivered no problems at the moment, I think the real problems will start in a week/fortnight's time when it's set in stone that VAT is applicable on everything.

I am really struggling to find out what to do, especially with our website.

Ebay sales are no issue - VAT is paid, I just need RM to clarify if I can then send it using existing tracked/standard/signed services, and because the VAT is paid and the eBay IOSS no. passed onto the customs, I presume this means "cleared" and it's good to deliver?

Our website and getting to grips with that is proving a nightmare. I can't just edit our website to add VAT for the buyer's country, because I currently have no way to know how to a) post the item and on which service to send it, b) how to pass this VAT on

Royal Mail are simply ignoring me despite numerous contact attempts and emails (even though Click/Drop support keep CC'ing me in onto "please reply to this customer" emails.

As for your IOSS cost, flick back to the start of this thread - there's people saying the rough costs.. Taxamo is going to be £2 per item, and a lot of the IOSS intermediaries want anywhere from £1500/year plus monthly accounting fees. For small business (me) this is simply out of the window, hence relying on waiting for Royal Mail to do something.

I've got a lot of information from here, some conflicting, some very helpful, but leaps & bounds better than the Europe and HMRC websites.

If anyone reading this has spoken to a human at Royal Mail and it's briefly in line with what I'm asking and fits this scenario of "own website, using Click+Drop with RM biz account, and how to send stuff to Europe from 1st July", I'd love to know.

 

[JPMiddleton]

Ebay sales are no issue - VAT is paid, I just need RM to clarify if I can then send it using existing tracked/standard/signed services, and because the VAT is paid and the eBay IOSS no. passed onto the customs, I presume this means "cleared" and it's good to deliver?

Correct, the IOSS number is added to the shipment info' and in theory it clears customs as a result. No handling fees for the receiver. Just VAT.

 

[SXW46]

Is signing up as a Non-Union member via ros.ie the best solution or am I missing something entirely?

 

[Morning]

@romeo b: with a week to go, I think you should just accept that, for the time being, all orders going through your website will be going DDU. Unless you can integrate Taxamo Assure, register for the IOSS through an intermediary, or sign up to Royal Mail PDDP, there's no other option. So you'll have to let your EU customers know what to expect (VAT and handling fee prior to delivery) and direct them to instead buy through your Ebay shop, if at all possible. I'm in the same boat, it sucks.

Is signing up as a Non-Union member via ros.ie the best solution or am I missing something entirely?

That's for services, not goods.

 

[SXW46]

That's for services, not goods.

Thanks for the clarification! So as of yet, there is no solution for a UK limited company besides going through an intemediary?

 

[Morning]

Thanks for the clarification! So as of yet, there is no solution for a UK limited company besides going through an intemediary?

Not until the EU and UK have a VAT agreement of suitable scope to allow direct registration. Write to your MP and Liz Truss.

 

[GuyMor]

1. DDP and IOSS are different. DDP is simply a postal service and can be done without IOSS registration. If you want to register for IOSS you will (currently) need a third party intermediary, at least for

Yes,.I get that. What I meant was in regards to offsetting the vat if we had an EU entity.

For now, it seems that we will keep sending DDU, if every parcel or the majority of will get stopped, we will send DDP. Regardless of IOSS. But then there's still the issue ofduty charges.

 

[romeo b]

@romeo b: with a week to go, I think you should just accept that, for the time being, all orders going through your website will be going DDU. Unless you can integrate Taxamo Assure, register for the IOSS through an intermediary, or sign up to Royal Mail PDDP, there's no other option.

You can’t even do anything with regards to PDDP at the moment, there’s nothing around to allow you to sign up or anything. They should just take a look at your spending and integrate the services into your available ones for dispatch. I imagine that’s all they’ll do when it’s available anyway - I already use their Click&Drop Portal so I’m not about to start using a second one - they’ll surely just have it all together.

As each day goes on, I just feel more and more frustrated by it all. I was wondering how to deal with EU sales on our website, maybe IMO just integrate a big red banner notice on every product warning of customs charges and VAT.

EDIT: just checked the PDDP Royal Mail page again. Still no mention of how to use it or apply. Only that it’s coming soon. Minimum spend if £5k means we qualify but how to do anything now is beyond me.

 

[Morning]

You can’t even do anything with regards to PDDP at the moment, there’s nothing around to allow you to sign up or anything.

Exactly. None of the options I gave can be implemented in a week.

As each day goes on, I just feel more and more frustrated by it all. I was wondering how to deal with EU sales on our website, maybe IMO just integrate a big red banner notice on every product warning of customs charges and VAT.

Definitely make EU customers aware somehow. I've had a page of info for EU customers since January, and when placing an order they're directed to read that page first. From July, I'll also say 'wouldn't you rather buy through my Etsy shop?".

 

[JPMiddleton]

Frustrating is an understatement at this point, I enquired with Taxamo how we can move from our sandbox testing to a live system with their API (we have got a developer working on it as a fall back if we need to use Taxamo as a last resort)...

This was their response, honestly... you couldn't make it up. Even their own staff do not know what IOSS is for.

Our service only provides tax rates for countries that are part of the IOSS system, which does not include the UK. Please see here for the supported countries: https://www.taxamo.com/taxamo-assure-rmg/countries-supported

Kind regards,

 

[DontAsk]

Hi all,
We're vat registered, UK based e-commerce with an AVG order value of £100 to the EU.
we sell worldwide and at the moment send it DAP/DDU everywhere. In theory, we should received lots of complaints about how the customers are being charged duty + vat but in reality, it almost never happens.

That's my experience too and I have no intention of changing. The sky did not fall in with Brexit nor will it with IOSS.

We don't spend £5K/yr on postage, so the RM schemes are no use.

 

[DefinitelyMaybeUK]

In theory, we should received lots of complaints about how the customers are being charged duty + vat but in reality, it almost never happens.

If your orders are under €150 then duty shouldn't be charged as you know, so I'm not surprised you're not seeing a mass of complaints. Similarly, VAT has been applicable pre-Brexit and now, so again a no brainer for EU folk. What is a complete PITA for our customers is the local handling fee in order to collect VAT (and any applicable duty) - this is a staggering €24 to our dwindling Belgium customers, and although it's one of the highest rates in the EU, the feedback is not positive for us as the sky gets darker. The IOSS route should at least claw back some customers, but it's uphill at the moment as you all know.

We don't spend £5K/yr on postage

Although badly explained by RM (did you expect anything else?!) the 5K figure is *likely* the same threshold criteria as for a standard business account, i.e 5k across uk tracked spend and international business post, not just 5k on IOSS post.

 

[DefinitelyMaybeUK]

On the flip side, even though are products are of eu origin and are duty free, every time we do send DDP we get charged duties and now have to chase for months...

Do you think they're "duty free" because they are less than €150 or because they're of EU origin? If < €150 than I agree, but EU origin goods sent back from the UK (without undergoing any changes) aren't duty free (preferential) according to the HMRC flow chart, as they have already entered free-circulation into the UK and can't be re-exported under the same terms (despite an apparent EU/UK TCA):
https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...-goods-to-the-eu-flowchart-accessible-version