EU IOSS Signup

[schmexit]

No, you include the discount.

The intrinsic Value would be 35 EUR
And VAT would be due on 45 EUR

On my store, I do all my sales in GBP. Once a month, I will download the exchange rate from the EU website (InforEuro) and use this to convert the 150EUR into GBP. Currently about 131 GBP. Then I do the threshold comparison against this number in GBP. And any VAT calculations I do in GBP at the relevant EU rate.

At the bottom of my commercial invoices which are all in GBP, I will have an EU VAT summary section where I state the exchange rate used, and convert the Total Ex Vat, VAT Charged and Grand Total into EUR for information, and will include my EU VAT Number when I get it.

Ah, I see! I thought when you said, "removing any discount" that you would disregard it.

That's great advice re: invoices. How do you ensure orders are under €150? Do you split them manually if they're over, ship them without charging the EU VAT, or do you prevent customers from ordering over €150?

 

[Graham Wharton]

My online store handles it for me. (Actually, I wrote a software module for our Magento 2 online store to handle it for me.) As soon as the order goes above 131 GBP (converted from 150 EUR), the checkout automatically removes the EU VAT element (or it will do once we can get signed up)

 

[schmexit]

My online store handles it for me. (Actually, I wrote a software module for our Magento 2 online store to handle it for me.) As soon as the order goes above 131 GBP (converted from 150 EUR), the checkout automatically removes the EU VAT element (or it will do once we can get signed up)

That's nifty! Would you consider sharing or selling that module? I think it may be useful to a lot of small UK businesses running Magento 2.

 

[Graham Wharton]

github . com / gwharton / autocustomergroup

 

[Graham Wharton]

Be aware eBay have released their IOSS number, which you need to include in the electronic customs information that goes with any shipments for eBay sales. It is IM2760000742. This was communicated out to me Yesterday in a global eBay email.

In addition, looks like the UK Government will be implementing an IOSS portal for UK businesses to register for IOSS.

www . gov . uk / government / publications / eu-e-commerce-package / eu-vat-e-commerce-package

states

A business not established in the EU or Northern Ireland wishing to register for IOSS will be able to do so in any EU member state or in the UK. However, it is not expected that the UK IOSS registration portal will be available for use for the 1 July 2021 launch. Further guidance on this will be made available before 1 July 2021.

 

[romeo b]

Be aware eBay have released their IOSS number, which you need to include in the electronic customs information that goes with any shipments for eBay sales. It is IM2760000742. This was communicated out to me Yesterday in a global eBay email.

In addition, looks like the UK Government will be implementing an IOSS portal for UK businesses to register for IOSS.

www . gov . uk / government / publications / eu-e-commerce-package / eu-vat-e-commerce-package

states

A business not established in the EU or Northern Ireland wishing to register for IOSS will be able to do so in any EU member state or in the UK. However, it is not expected that the UK IOSS registration portal will be available for use for the 1 July 2021 launch. Further guidance on this will be made available before 1 July 2021.

Is this posted anywhere officially? We've had no email, and are a "top rated seller" with a shop for 10 years - also, unsure if this IOSS number somehow relates to you specifically or if it's applicable to *everyone* or maybe even specific people. Maybe they use different numbers for different shops/sellers etc?

Either way, we've heard nothing yet.

Where is this information passed on customs? We're only provided the customer information, unless eBay is telling Royal Mail Click & Drop to include that information automatically somehjw - Click/Drop doesn't show anything for an IOSS number yet either. Where is the number passed to? Talk about impossible to navigate.

 

[Graham Wharton]

Hadn't considered it would be custom to me, but I dont think it is. It was an email sent out by the eBay Developers Program. See below for a copy. I cant find the info on the developers website, but it is notoriously never updated.

Dear Developer,

Your immediate attention is required.

Notice of EU changes to distance selling rules

From 1 July 2021, the EU will introduce significant changes to how VAT is collected on imports into the EU, supplies within the EU by non-EU sellers and cross border supplies by EU sellers. eBay is obliged to collect VAT on goods sold through eBay to EU customers in the following circumstances:

• Goods imported into the EU, with a parcel value of up to EUR 150. Note that there is no longer a VAT exemption for small consignments up to EUR 22.
• Goods of any value sold by a non-EU seller and shipped from inventory stored in the EU. Sellers may still have EU VAT obligation and should consult their tax advisors for further information.
• If an order fits either of these criteria, neither sellers nor carriers should collect VAT from buyers in the EU. eBay will collect the VAT from the buyer based on the country of delivery and remit it to the responsible tax authorities.

Requirement of IOSS Number on EU Imports:
Where eBay has collected VAT on your shipment to the EU (up to a consignment value of 150€), eBay will provide sellers with eBay’s IOSS number to use as part of the import information. Sellers should only use this number in connection with eBay transactions. Where eBay becomes aware of seller misuse of the eBay IOSS number, eBay will take necessary actions against the seller.

• Sellers must provide eBay’s IOSS as part of the electronic export pre-notification documentation provided to carriers. If eBay’s IOSS is not provided correctly, then buyers may have to pay VAT again on delivery.
• Developers should contact their carriers directly to receive carrier specific guidance on how to transfer the eBay IOSS during the electronic customs declaration between seller and carrier.

eBay’s IOSS Number is: IM2760000742

Please note: It can only be used for orders purchased from July 1st and beyond..

API enhancements to support IOSS number: To help ensure imports into the EU have the required IOSS number, eBay will be modifying five (5) APIs to include this reference number starting on July 1st, 2021. The APIs being updated are:

• Fulfillment API
• Trading API
  • GetOrders
  • GetOrderTransactions
  • GetItemTransactions
  • GetSellerTransactions
• Sell Feed API

Fulfillment API (example):

eBayReference":{
"name":"IOSS"
"value":"ebayTaxNumber"
}

Trading API (example):

<eBayCollectAndRemitTaxes>
<eBayReference name="IOSS">
ebayTaxNumber
</eBayReference>
</eBayCollectAndRemitTaxes>


Additional Improvements: We have also updated the above APIs to:

1. Pass the associated tax reference number for imports into the UK (IOSS), New Zealand (IRD), Australia (ABN), and Norway(VOEC).
2. The Buyer’s VAT ID will be included as part of the buyer details in cases of tax exemption
3. We will also pass the IOSS number as part of address street 2 in API version <1211. Shipping address street 2 decoration will not be available for versions 1211 and above. After 1/31/2022, all shipping address street 2 decorations will be removed for all of the API versions. Note: When generating address labels, remove the decoration as it was added to help identify IOSS transactions.

Sincerely,

eBay Developers Program

 

[Graham Wharton]

With regard to your second point, if you go into Trading Names on C&D, you can add the eBay IOSS number in there. (You can also add the eBay Norway VOEC and eBay Australia ABN too). Its the same place you add your EORI and VAT numbers. Infact if you import from both eBay and other marketplaces you can create a Trading Name for each marketplace. Set the correct IOSS number for each marketplace's trading name, then update each integration to use the trading name entry with the correct IOSS number. You will notice that once added, the correct IOSS number will be included on the CN22's on packages to europe that were imported via the eBay integration/eBay Trading Name.

 

[fallschirmjaeger]

Is this posted anywhere officially? We've had no email, and are a "top rated seller" with a shop for 10 years - also, unsure if this IOSS number somehow relates to you specifically or if it's applicable to *everyone* or maybe even specific people. Maybe they use different numbers for different shops/sellers etc?

Either way, we've heard nothing yet.

Where is this information passed on customs? We're only provided the customer information, unless eBay is telling Royal Mail Click & Drop to include that information automatically somehjw - Click/Drop doesn't show anything for an IOSS number yet either. Where is the number passed to? Talk about impossible to navigate.

I'm the same top rated seller for 10+ years and no email regarding this - looks like i will need to get a rubber stamp made up if there is just one IOSS number!

 

[romeo b]

With regard to your second point, if you go into Trading Names on C&D, you can add the eBay IOSS number in there. (You can also add the eBay Norway VOEC and eBay Australia ABN too). Its the same place you add your EORI and VAT numbers. Infact if you import from both eBay and other marketplaces you can create a Trading Name for each marketplace. Set the correct IOSS number for each marketplace's trading name, then update each integration to use the trading name entry with the correct IOSS number. You will notice that once added, the correct IOSS number will be included on the CN22's on packages to europe that were imported via the eBay integration/eBay Trading Name.

Thanks for your replies - they are most helpful.

I assume this is the field that's now appeared (hadn't noticed it before) entitled "Pre-registration tax schemes" and selecting "European Union" here would be the number eBay provide me?

We are a non-VAT reg'd UK biz, sending stuff out to Europe (amongst the rest of the world) - import into UK doesn't come into it whatsoever for us, if that matters.

 

[romeo b]

I'm the same top rated seller for 10+ years and no email regarding this - looks like i will need to get a rubber stamp made up if there is just one IOSS number!

I phoned eBay about 3 weeks ago, was on hold for an hour, nobody had a clue. I even read back the bit from their news article about "Specify the IOSS number eBay provide to you" - which they hadn't, and eBay said they also had no idea, but would email me within 72 hours. That was 3 weeks ago.

Please reply back if you hear off them!

 

[romeo b]

...

Lastly, which I am sure the answer is probably now "yes", but we sell a fair bit of stuff overseas and recently it's done quite well.

Ebay state:
If you are an EU established seller and your business is trading over the legal thresholds defined by your home country or you sell more than EUR 10,000 in goods annually to buyers in different EU countries, you must ensure that you are registered for VAT. Your seller and VAT details must be updated in your eBay account.

So if we're selling more than €10k (approx £8600) of stuff to overseas (all of Europe), we need to register for VAT in UK too now? Or is this asking you to use the IOSS method? Our overall turnover does not exceed the UK VAT threshold at present. We do not collect , charge or remit VAT at present. Our turnover is below the £85k for all combined UK and Rest of World sales. Hard to decipher what is required given eBay are sorting the VAT side of it all out from their point of view.

(I'd say it's 70% eBay sales, 20% own website, 10% general sales - and this 100% is all split about 1/3 each to UK, Europe and Rest of World)

This surely cannot be correct as every business in the UK doing £8600+ of overseas business would need to be UK vat registered. I am sure I read somewhere on the HMRC guidelines they are proposing something for this as to not cause a nightmare for small business registering for VAT.

from HMRC:

To ease the administrative burden of businesses having to register in each EU member state where they have customers, there will be a new opt-in online One Stop Shop (OSS) quarterly VAT reporting and payment system. This means that businesses falling in scope of the new rules will no longer be required to VAT register in each of the EU member states of their customers. A business opting to register for OSS will be able to do so once in any EU member state or in the UK, provided that it is VAT registered in the EU member state or is trading with the EU under the Northern Ireland Protocol.

Once registered for OSS, the business must account for VAT on all its distance sales through that OSS. Businesses exceeding the £8,818 threshold that wish to use the UK’s OSS will be required to register for VAT in the UK if they are not already registered and will require an XI indicator. The requirement to VAT register will apply even if the overall turnover is below the normal UK VAT registration threshold of £85,000.

HMRC is keen to ensure that VAT will not be due automatically on domestic supplies in these circumstances. Further guidance on this will be made available before 1 July 2021. A UK VAT registration is not required if the supplier registers and accounts for the VAT in each EU member state where the goods are dispatched to.

 

[romeo b]

Further to my post above, it appears that this €10k threshold applies to NI businesses now that I have re-read the guidance and also read a plethora of equally confused people's posts. Nothing is easily understandable and eBay are giving generic messages that don't apply to UK sellers.

So it looks like a UK non-VAT reg'd business can still send to EU as we do now, under the UK VAT Threshold (£85k) as normal without registering for UK VAT. Or else all small business would end up registering for VAT. So that's one thing off my mind.

So if we use the eBay OSS number (which they've not yet provided), the tax side of things is also sorted out for us there. It's just the duty itself we need to worry about (handling etc).

One post I saw on an eBay forum said (in response to an equally confused person):

You are not registered in Northern Ireland and I'm assuming you don't hold stock there. This means you don't need to worry about registering for VAT in the UK nor the EU provided your low value sales to the EU (those not exceeding £135/€150) are only conducted via eBay. The €10,000 threshold for (EU) VAT registration applies to intra-EU sales (including Northern Ireland); not sales into the EU from third countries.

Items you sell into the EU that exceed the low value threshold will be treated as they are now; i.e. the buyer will still be responsible for paying VAT, duty, handling charges etc. on import.

I haven't seen one person yet who has it all figured out and we're 3 weeks off the deadline.

So just all the other stuff to sort out now.. like actually providing this illusive eBay OSS number that they're yet to email me about.

<sigh>

 

[ADC]

Yes I agree - sort off - with time I suspect the EU will get accustomed to VAT etc. To me it is no different to USA and I sell mainly to USA so any charges are not putting my USA customers off! But its one of these 'time will tell' I may have to do the IOSS thing if sales to EU stop completely. Even from an accounting viewpoint its easier to keep off of IOSS I suspect!

US customers don't mind because they don't pay any import tax unless they buy more than $800. From July the limit in EU wil be zero.

 

[Spur Support Services]

I haven't seen one person yet who has it all figured out and we're 3 weeks off the deadline.

So just all the other stuff to sort out now.. like actually providing this illusive eBay OSS number that they're yet to email me about.

<sigh>

The problem is, that the guidance hasn't been published yet.
My gut feel is there is still a lot of discussion going on between the UK and the EU. Both parties will be trying to keep the process as simple as possible to encourage responsible tax collection.

The Duty question is only for "Consignments" over €150 (UK £135).
Similarly Ebay's responsibility for using their OSS will only be for consignments up to the above.
Therefore, limiting your basket size (including shipping costs, insurance costs etc) for overseas customers to £135 (or €150) on all platforms and websites, may mitigate against this risk.

If you have Shopify or other direct sale sites, with low overseas activity, I would advise blocking sales to overseas customers until the rules and guidance are finalised (leave overseas sales open on Market Places such as Ebay, Amazon, Etsy, etc) .

Also ensure that you retain sufficient detail on orders, so that you can identify sales to each country and the EU/NI as a block.
This may require regular download of detailed order reports into CSV/Excel format, to ensure that you retain a full audit trail.

It is frustrating that no clear message and guidance is available. I think its still very much a moving target, but the clarity on the online marketplace sales has helped remove a massive amount of the risk.

 

[ADC]

Bit of an update for you, last month i sent the following email to EU direct contact centre:-

"I wonder if you could help me with a problem? I would like to know if the EU and the UK has a Mutual Assistance Agreement for the recovery of VAT? If you have a look at page 1091 of the trade agreement it seems there is. We are a UK company who wishes to apply for the new IOSS (Import One Stop Shop) and we have been told by the French & Ireland Tax authorities that we can't apply without having a fiscal representative based inside the EU as the UK doesn't have a mutual assistance agreement for the recovery of VAT.

Are they mistaken? If so, please could you contact them and let them know. If they aren't mistaken please can you tell me what page 1091 of the trade agreement is for?"

Today I got a reply from them:-

"The new rules on VAT ecommerce (Directive (EU) 2017/2455 as regards certain value added tax obligations for supplies of services and distance sales of goods) will come into force on 1 July 2021. To make use of the special scheme for distance sales of goods imported from third territories or third countries, traders established in third territories or third countries must appoint an intermediary established in the European Union as the person liable for payment of the VAT under the IOSS.
Indeed, pursuant to Article 369m of the VAT Directive, there is no need to appoint such an intermediary if the trader is established in a country with which the Union has concluded an agreement on mutual assistance similar in scope to Council Directive 2010/24/EU and Regulation (EU) No 904/2010.

However, for the full implementation of Article 369 m, the Commission shall establish the list of third countries with which the Union has concluded an agreement on administrative cooperation and recovery assistance, similar in scope to the legislation in place among the Member States. That is why the Commission has proposed a Council Decision with the list of such countries which is currently in the process of adoption. The adoption of the decision is foreseen by the entry into force of the new VAT rules (at the latest by the end of June).
We will be in a position to provide you with more information after the adoption procedure is finalised."

 

[romeo b]

So, basically, nobody knows, and it's all up in the air still.

Lots of long words, confusing literature and stuff that's not easy for someone running a business to understand. Most of the stuff I have understood has been written here. I don't have a tax degree. It sounds very much like we're all trying to run small/medium businesses and the advice is just all over the place.

Basically: headache. That's all they had to say. Headache.

 

[schmexit]

github . com / gwharton / autocustomergroup

That's fantastic, thank you so much! I will check it out!

 

[schmexit]

So, basically, nobody knows, and it's all up in the air still.

Lots of long words, confusing literature and stuff that's not easy for someone running a business to understand. Most of the stuff I have understood has been written here. I don't have a tax degree. It sounds very much like we're all trying to run small/medium businesses and the advice is just all over the place.

Basically: headache. That's all they had to say. Headache.

THIS! Exactly this.

When they sent that response to me, I had to email them back and ask what it actually meant.

 

[ADC]

THIS! Exactly this.

When they sent that response to me, I had to email them back and ask what it actually meant.

I think it means they are going to decide whether UK companies need an EU representative in a meeting before the end of June.

Probably depends on whether todays negotiations with the EU about where we can stick our sausage goes well or not

 

[jfrm]

Update on intermediary costs. The cheapest one found in the end was Avask.
Pricing for registering is £250 (one time payment)
£1200 annually to conduct IOSS filings.
Yes, it is money for old rope but sometimes one has no choice. The lead time for getting an IOSS number via the Spanish portal is around 3 weeks so we've taken the plunge. It's eminently clear that none of the issues being discussed will be resolved by 1 July so if we want to continue to sell from our website and send DDP into the EU from 1 July we are going to have to go the intermediary route. I daresay that within a year, there will be a clarification or agreement and hopefully we can then file direct - but it's not guaranteed to happen soon.
FYI, it seems that Ireland, Poland and Spain have a working portal, at least. Germany not and they are apparently difficult to communicate with anyway. I know first hand that the French goverment are the ultimate bureaucratic nightmare so avoid like the plague. Only problem with Avask is that they don't offer registration via Netherlands or Ireland, our preferred countries (as they speak English). This is, of course, only an issue if we eventually start filing direct. While you have an intermediary it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[romeo b]

Update on intermediary costs. The cheapest one found in the end was Avask.
Pricing for registering is £250 (one time payment)
£1200 annually to conduct IOSS filings.
Yes, it is money for old rope but sometimes one has no choice. The lead time for getting an IOSS number via the Spanish portal is around 3 weeks so we've taken the plunge. It's eminently clear that none of the issues being discussed will be resolved by 1 July so if we want to continue to sell from our website and send DDP into the EU from 1 July we are going to have to go the intermediary route. I daresay that within a year, there will be a clarification or agreement and hopefully we can then file direct - but it's not guaranteed to happen soon.
FYI, it seems that Ireland, Poland and Spain have a working portal, at least. Germany not and they are apparently difficult to communicate with anyway. I know first hand that the French goverment are the ultimate bureaucratic nightmare so avoid like the plague. Only problem with Avask is that they don't offer registration via Netherlands or Ireland, our preferred countries (as they speak English). This is, of course, only an issue if we eventually start filing direct. While you have an intermediary it shouldn't be a problem.

Thanks for the update, everything is helping people at the moment. I think for you it's obviously worth it, but certainly for us (not yet VAT reg'd in UK and under threshold) it's not viable.

I guess the options are, for us anyway:

1) Continue to sell via eBay - send stuff as we were, include the eBay IOSS number on CN22's (when they actually provide this to us...). Customer has paid VAT already, duty TBC depending whether Royal Mail introduce a DDP service you can utilise. I guess item value under threshold won't attract duty anyway (under €150).

2) Sell via own website and customer accepts they will pay all fees at their end. Not ideal scenario in any means, but an option nevertheless in order to "continue" relatively. Again, customer will pay VAT at countries rate, and depending on order value the duty upon arrival if order exceeds €150.

3) Stop selling to EU entirely via own website until a UK IOSS portal is established so we can sort the overseas VAT remittance out at our end to avoid the customer doing it.

This is how I'm understanding this mess anyway. There's tonnes of info but you have to remember not everyone is VAT reg'd in UK so decoding and deciphering the smaller matters is getting tricky.

 

[jfrm]

Yes, I think in your situation, that is right. I wasn't sure if it was worth it for us, either, at first. I had to do some digging to see exactly how much profit we made from EU sales, first.
Sending DAP to customers is not necessarily a big problem as long as you deal with it in a good way. If you make it clear up front (and before they order) what's going to happen, how long it will take and better yet, if possible, roughly how much extra they will get charged, then there are no nasty surprises. The customer can decide if they want to go ahead or not and you've turned a potentially bad experience into a perfectly acceptable one. Our experience has been that for normal small shipments, the extra cost to them is around a fiver (clearance + slightly more VAT than they used to pay pre-Brexit.)

 

[DefinitelyMaybeUK]

I guess the options are

There's also Taxamo PAYG as mentioned on the RM page:
https://www.royalmail.com/business/international/guide/delivered-duties-paid
This is stated as a £2 per transaction fee and might be a short-term solution at least for your own website using their API. The £2 looks to be far cheaper than any DDU handling fee in EU which can be from 5 to 20+ euro?

 

[romeo b]

(can't reply to your post as it has a link in it and it blocks new members from posting links)

Thanks, will take a look - from what I am told, handling (duty?) is only on €150+ orders. I haven't had any reports so far of anyone paying duty on items for the most part (most of our items are £15, some £40 including postage) - although I do get a handling fee off TNT for 80usd items so I'll look into it.

As it happens I've asked RM about the DDP services but nobody is replying and I can't get hold of anyone. Absolutely terrible. We have an OBA with RM and it's frustrating trying to speak to them about things.

I notice RM says (on your link) it's aiming to be operational by July and undergoing trial. Probably why nobody is saying anything yet.

Talk about last minute for everything!

 

[DefinitelyMaybeUK]

from what I am told, handling (duty?) is only on €150+ orders. I haven't had any reports so far of anyone paying duty on items for the most part (most of our items are £15, some £40 including postage)

Yes, *duty* is/will be only on orders over €150 but AFAIK a handling fee we still be applicable to DDU (i.e not IOSS/DDP) orders after 1st July, as VAT needs to be collected for all orders not just those over €22 as it is today. The handling fees vary widely depending on country and a previous post list the known ones:
https://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/...customs-charge-in-the-eu.410536/#post-3059166

It could be that weighing these handling fees up against a PAYG charge makes sense, but then there's also a likely RM IOSS overhead to take into account for their new IOSS specific service codes (MTE/MP7 etc) which I haven't seen prices for yet.

It's always possible RM will jump in and save the day with their PDDP solution which allows orders over €150 to be sent DDP too (unlike IOSS) - for anyone sending small parcel / higher value items via RM post, then this *could* be a single solution to implement (but I wouldn't hold my breath on that...)

 

[schmexit]

Thanks for the update, everything is helping people at the moment. I think for you it's obviously worth it, but certainly for us (not yet VAT reg'd in UK and under threshold) it's not viable.

I guess the options are, for us anyway:

1) Continue to sell via eBay - send stuff as we were, include the eBay IOSS number on CN22's (when they actually provide this to us...). Customer has paid VAT already, duty TBC depending whether Royal Mail introduce a DDP service you can utilise. I guess item value under threshold won't attract duty anyway (under €150).

2) Sell via own website and customer accepts they will pay all fees at their end. Not ideal scenario in any means, but an option nevertheless in order to "continue" relatively. Again, customer will pay VAT at countries rate, and depending on order value the duty upon arrival if order exceeds €150.

3) Stop selling to EU entirely via own website until a UK IOSS portal is established so we can sort the overseas VAT remittance out at our end to avoid the customer doing it.

This is how I'm understanding this mess anyway. There's tonnes of info but you have to remember not everyone is VAT reg'd in UK so decoding and deciphering the smaller matters is getting tricky.

Thanks for sharing your findings with us. It's still so expensive!

 

[schmexit]

There's also Taxamo PAYG as mentioned on the RM page:
https://www.royalmail.com/business/international/guide/delivered-duties-paid
This is stated as a £2 per transaction fee and might be a short-term solution at least for your own website using their API. The £2 looks to be far cheaper than any DDU handling fee in EU which can be from 5 to 20+ euro?

That could be a good solution in the meantime. Thank you!

 

[romeo b]

Yes, *duty* is/will be only on orders over €150 but AFAIK a handling fee we still be applicable to DDU (i.e not IOSS/DDP) orders after 1st July, as VAT needs to be collected for all orders not just those over €22 as it is today. The handling fees vary widely depending on country and a previous post list the known ones:
(your link - removed cos UKB forum won't let me post it)

It could be that weighing these handling fees up against a PAYG charge makes sense, but then there's also a likely RM IOSS overhead to take into account for their new IOSS specific service codes (MTE/MP7 etc) which I haven't seen prices for yet.

It's always possible RM will jump in and save the day with their PDDP solution which allows orders over €150 to be sent DDP too (unlike IOSS) - for anyone sending small parcel / higher value items via RM post, then this *could* be a single solution to implement (but I wouldn't hold my breath on that...)

Thanks - although it says at bottom of that post that "although the duty threshold remains at €150." So guess we'll find out about the changes in handling fees if anything or if they remain as per that list, but the country list is useful.

 

[romeo b]

That could be a good solution in the meantime. Thank you!

I saw that £2 per item, that's the duty handling itself, so there's still the VAT to account for though. You couldn't send it using a DDP service if the tax is outstanding.. DDP means it's good to deliver to the customer, I think? So you need to have the VAT element already sorted before paying the £2 per item.

If you sell through eBay, do they handle the duty? I guess not. So maybe if you sold something through ebay the following would happen:

Example: On eBay, you sold an item for £10. If VAT in customers' country is 20%, they owe an extra £2.00 (and they'll have paid eBay this £2 already). But you need to send it then using a DDP service. So maybe RM will be introducing (into Click&Drop) DDP services in replacement of the normal services. So you take the DDP hit unless you've added this onto your prices, I guess. The DDP isn't the tax element of the item. It's the "release" cost (clearance) so an additional postage service (at this point anyway, on eBay after the customer has paid you).

But to do this through your own website you'll need to incorporate a method of calculating the tax owed on a per-country basis, get customer to pay it to you, you send item using the DDP service just like if you send it on eBay (which costs more as it's clearing the duty side of the item), and you remit the VAT back to Taxamo PAYG system somehow. Maybe. It's frying my brain day by day this mess.

The problem is twice the mess (for me anyway) as we sell both through eBay and our own website. It is not cost effective to be signing up to a £1200+/annum pricing for IOSS.

The annoying thing is most stuff we sell is £10-15 and if we do nothing, these items become twice the price with the VAT and Duty when they land.

No wonder so many are saying it's killing their business entirely.

 

[Morning]

I haven't been following what Ebay are doing (so they might be doing something weird), but it shouldn't be necessary to post Ebay items DDP because if they're under 150 Euro, they should be sent along with Ebay's IOSS number and the VAT will be collect the the point of sale. If an item has an IOSS number, it clear customs immediately, so there's no clearance fee.

It's the same with Taxamo Assure - you send the item with Taxamo's IOSS number. The VAT is collect at the point of sale, through the integration of Taxamo Assure and your shop checkout.

Edit: The £2 Taxamo fee isn't a duty handling fee (there's no duty under 150 Euro), it's their fee to act as the entity liable for the VAT.

Edit again: Taxamo Assure and Ebay are doing the same thing - acting as the 'facilitating marketplace' so they collect the VAT at the point of sale and remit it to the EU.

 

[romeo b]

I haven't been following what Ebay are doing (so they might be doing something weird), but it shouldn't be necessary to post Ebay items DDP because if they're under 150 Euro, they should be sent along with Ebay's IOSS number and the VAT will be collect the the point of sale. If an item has an IOSS number, it clear customs immediately, so there's no clearance fee.

It's the same with Taxamo Assure - you send the item with Taxamo's IOSS number. The VAT is collect at the point of sale, through the integration of Taxamo Assure and your shop checkout.

Edit: The £2 Taxamo fee isn't a duty handling fee (there's no duty under 150 Euro), it's their fee to act as the entity liable for the VAT.

Edit again: Taxamo Assure and Ebay are doing the same thing - acting as the 'facilitating marketplace' so they collect the VAT at the point of sale and remit it to the EU.

Thanks a lot. There are others reading your posts even more clueless than me and trust me it is a big help.

It's difficult to get to grips with it all when it's not been a problem previously. Especially as information is still sporadic, unconfirmed and developing. RM don't even have a DDP system in place yet and we're a fortnight off supposedly having to use it for DDP qualifying consignments.

Right.. so in short if you use Taxamo, you pay them £2 and somehow they'll do the VAT side of it - aka we charge the customer the VAT and give it back to Taxamo in some method, plus £2 per item fee.

But eBay are just collecting the VAT from the customer, paying me the difference, and me sending my stuff as normal but using their IOSS number, which means it's "cleared" aka tax paid.

So sounds like on our own website, we'd benefit from building in the VAT rates per country, charging the customer it and remitting this to Taxamo (however this happens, maybe a monthly bill) or whatever plus their £2 fee.

Tax not paid on an item means it accrues the Duty side of it, aka "item not cleared" and a handling charge.

Duty. Tax. Remit. VAT. One moment I'm thinking I totally get it and the next I'm actually talking about the entirely wrong aspect of it.

(all whilst trying to produce goods)

 

[Morning]

Tax not paid on an item means it accrues the Duty side of it, aka "item not cleared" and a handling charge.

Remember, duty is a specific thing, and it's only due on packages over 150 Euro. That's why the IOSS caps out at 150 Euro. If the IOSS is not used (either through direct registration, an intermediary, Taxamo or a marketplace), and no IOSS number is included in the data along with the package, VAT is due on all packages and duty is due on packages over 150 Euro. The postal services will collect that from the buyer, along with a handling fee. It's not a customs fee, or a duty fee, it's a fee to pay for the time and money the postal service has spent handling the process.

Sending packages DDP is a different thing entirely, where the postal carrier will pay the VAT (and duty if applicable) and charge the seller rather than the buyer. And will of course charge a fee for the service.

If you use Taxamo Assure, it needs to be integrated into your checkout process, by API or something or other (I don't know about these things). VAT rates, the collection of VAT and the payment of VAT are all taken care of by Taxamo. I don't know at what point the £2 fee comes in, ie when that's paid, but it could be paid by the seller independently of the customer payment process. Maybe it's deducted from the total Taxamo gives the seller. I'd think it unlikely the customer will see that £2 fee (it won't be on their invoice), though most sellers will likely up their p&p to compensate. Dunno, didn't spot that detail.

 

[DefinitelyMaybeUK]

I don't know at what point the £2 fee comes in

IIRC from the Taxamo pages, the seller gives card details upfront, so the VAT due is paid at the transaction time and the fees are paid monthly. oh yeah:

https://docs.assure.taxamo.com/docs/billing-faqs

The 'real' customer is sent notification of VAT having being paid.

 

[Morning]

Thanks, should've just gone and looked again as the info was right there! I quite like it as a system, hopefully Bluepark will allow it to be implemented soon. Though I can't help feeling that £2 is quite a fee considering, unlike an intermediary, there's no risk of the seller not paying the VAT, as the seller isn't involved at all. Are Ebay/Etsy raising fees to implement the IOSS? Did they raise fees when they had to start collecting UK VAT on imports in Jan?

 

[romeo b]

I've once again had an email off eBay about upcoming VAT changes and with instructions to use the eBay-provided IOSS number on outgoing UK-EU items, but they have not told us anywhere or communicated this to us.

Customer support aren't replying in live chat.

Customer support who I did get through to said I'd have a reply within 7 days (that was 2 weeks ago) - received nothing

No documentation online showing their IOSS number anywhere that I can see.

Seems like the "Developer" style eBay sellers had an email with an IOSS number on but other sellers haven't been told, yet are being bombarded with "make sure you provide our IOSS number" emails.

Anyone got a clue?

 

[YourWorkersLTD]

I've once again had an email off eBay about upcoming VAT changes and with instructions to use the eBay-provided IOSS number on outgoing UK-EU items, but they have not told us anywhere or communicated this to us.

Customer support aren't replying in live chat.

Customer support who I did get through to said I'd have a reply within 7 days (that was 2 weeks ago) - received nothing

No documentation online showing their IOSS number anywhere that I can see.

Seems like the "Developer" style eBay sellers had an email with an IOSS number on but other sellers haven't been told, yet are being bombarded with "make sure you provide our IOSS number" emails.

Anyone got a clue?

We're also waiting to see what the situation will be like. Not sure if Amazon has given the IOSS number?

 

[ADC]

We're also waiting to see what the situation will be like. Not sure if Amazon has given the IOSS number?

I wonder how it will work at customs? Will customs get the order number and the IOSS number from eBay or Amazon when transaction goes through, so they know the customer has paid? Otherwise it's open to massive fraud with people just using any old IOSS number.

 

[YourWorkersLTD]

I wonder how it will work at customs? Will customs get the order number and the IOSS number from eBay or Amazon when transaction goes through, so they know the customer has paid? Otherwise it's open to massive fraud with people just using any old IOSS number.

Exactly my thoughts also. It seems ripe for fraud :/

 

[schmexit]

I saw that £2 per item, that's the duty handling itself, so there's still the VAT to account for though. You couldn't send it using a DDP service if the tax is outstanding.. DDP means it's good to deliver to the customer, I think? So you need to have the VAT element already sorted before paying the £2 per item.

If you sell through eBay, do they handle the duty? I guess not. So maybe if you sold something through ebay the following would happen:

Example: On eBay, you sold an item for £10. If VAT in customers' country is 20%, they owe an extra £2.00 (and they'll have paid eBay this £2 already). But you need to send it then using a DDP service. So maybe RM will be introducing (into Click&Drop) DDP services in replacement of the normal services. So you take the DDP hit unless you've added this onto your prices, I guess. The DDP isn't the tax element of the item. It's the "release" cost (clearance) so an additional postage service (at this point anyway, on eBay after the customer has paid you).

But to do this through your own website you'll need to incorporate a method of calculating the tax owed on a per-country basis, get customer to pay it to you, you send item using the DDP service just like if you send it on eBay (which costs more as it's clearing the duty side of the item), and you remit the VAT back to Taxamo PAYG system somehow. Maybe. It's frying my brain day by day this mess.

The problem is twice the mess (for me anyway) as we sell both through eBay and our own website. It is not cost effective to be signing up to a £1200+/annum pricing for IOSS.

The annoying thing is most stuff we sell is £10-15 and if we do nothing, these items become twice the price with the VAT and Duty when they land.

No wonder so many are saying it's killing their business entirely.

I will check with Taxamo, but their website says:

"Taxamo Assure integrates into your customer checkout journey and controls the real-time VAT calculation, invoicing and VAT number validation on your sales i.e. goods consignments below €150. As you process sales, these transaction details are tracked and Taxamo Assure takes responsibility to file and remit the VAT* due."