Employee asking for a wage rise!

[SamBro]

I have a employee that asked for a pay rise the other day! after putting me down ! This person said they had not had a payrise in 7 years ...which is correct , I run a small business with 3 people. However I gave this person last year (2017) £1,00.00 in bonus's. When I said what about your bonus's I gave you ....they said 'what bonus?' ..they had forgot. Also I had just told this person we had just lost £1500.00 worth of business that day . I know this ask has not come from them but their partner.! I do not want to give this wage rise and let her win !. Also this person has abused my business recently when having to follow up a job - they slept in!...then said do I think they have better things to do on a Saturday (job involves following up even if a Sat) ...however I looked at this persons day which he went out in the Company Van and went what appears to be a day grocery shopping (tesco/asda/aldi) an options which they took their partner to..in the Company van & a trip round thier friends!. I do value this employee as I would not have given the 1K last year .. This year they had have £250 bonus so far, I was about to give another end of this month but due to the p!ss tahe I have said I am not ...Thoughts ?? sorry its long winded. forgot to ad they said ...oh I'm not looking at leaving by the way !

 

[Mr D]

No pay rise in 7 years?
They've had a real terms pay cut then. The pay of 7 years ago won't buy as much today.

£1000 bonus is nice - every year or this a one off?

If they are abusing their position or behaving badly then deal with them under your disciplinary policy.

You are paying above minimum wage? - its a good idea rather than give bonuses to increase wages. People need to think they have at least the money coming in regularly that they had previously.

If your business cannot afford a payrise for 3 staff in 7 years then perhaps time to look at what you can change to improve your business.

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

I have a employee that asked for a pay rise the other day! after putting me down ! This person said they had not had a payrise in 7 years ...which is correct , I run a small business with 3 people. However I gave this person last year (2017) £1,00.00 in bonus's.

If this person hasn't had a pay rise in seven years, then you've effectively given them a pay cut due to inflation.

If my maths is correct based on inflation during that time, every £1000 you paid them in 2011 is the equivalent of around £850 today due to the increased cost of living. With a hypothetical £15,000 P/A salary, that's a loss of over £2000 this year alone.

Whether you think this person deserves a pay rise is a different story, but ultimately, even that £1000 bonus does not come close to maintaining a real-world static wage.

 

[itsnathanhere]

7 years with no pay rise is unacceptable. Every £100 you're paying that employee is now worth £18 less than it was 7 years ago. I appreciate that you've paid bonuses to this employee, but bonuses don't pay the bills because you never know if / when the next one's coming.

Whether or not the partner has anything to do with this is irrelevant. That employee has their own life away from your business, and what they do with it is none of your concern. Not sure what you mean by 'letting her win' - they're probably both feeling the pinch being £200 a month worse off than they were 7 years ago, assuming minimum wage on a 40 hour week!

Now when it comes to abuse of the company van etc, this is a matter that - as the previous poster said - should be dealt with via disciplinary procedure. This doesn't sound like a great employer / employee relationship from either end and I'd certainly think long and hard as to whether it's working.

 

[MBE2017]

I think they have every right to ask, and you should not be upset that they have.

Whether you give them an increase or not is down to you, if you do not expect more problems or even a resignation.

 

[Newchodge]

Do you allow them the day off on 25 December?

I suggest you consider, quite carefully, how professional you are as an employer. Your post sounds like a temper tantrum.

 

[Mr D]

Do you allow them the day off on 25 December?

I suggest you consider, quite carefully, how professional you are as an employer. Your post sounds like a temper tantrum.

Some people are required to work on 25th December. Nothing wrong with that when its part of a job.

 

[Awinner2]

Think yourself lucky that you have any staff left if you think not giving a pay rise in 7 years is an acceptable way to treat your staff.

 

[quikshop]

I have to agree with the consensus here; no pay rise in seven years you are lucky you have any employees left.

Do you allow them the day off on 25 December?

Why stop there? 24 hour rolling shifts limited to 2 * 1 minute toilet breaks, how else is he going to squeeze the pips?

 

[Mark T Jones]

I appreciate that it is too easy to make assumption based on a single post, but I'm afraid your post really does come across as someone who sees employment in a one-sided manner - rather like Arthur Daley bunging Terry bits of cash here and there (only those of my age will understand)

What is your policy on use of the van?

Why do you calculate bonuses.

TBH I think you need to sit down and have a sensible, 2-sided discussion about rewards and expectations and become a serious, responsible employer.

 

[Ian J]

Do you allow them the day off on 25 December?

My wife's employer makes her work on 25 December.

Bloody NHS

 

[Mr D]

My wife's employer makes her work on 25 December.

Bloody NHS

My wife used to have to work December 25th, 8.30 until about 10.30am.
Couple of hours work. If she booked the time off her employer had to find someone else to do that work that morning.

 

[Newchodge]

My wife's employer makes her work on 25 December.

Bloody NHS

I was thinking more of 2 Charles Dickens situations that the post reminded me of. "You want some MORE" - Oliver Twist and Bob Cratchett getting Christmas Day off in a Christmas Carol.

I know many people have to work on Christmas Day and I sometimes wonder about public transport - I remember when you could get the bus to go and visit granny on Christmas Day!

Edit - I did not replace 'Dick' in 'Dickens' above with ****, the system seems to have done it for me! What is this forum coming to?

 

[SamBro]

thank you for your responses...Right ok...person does not work xmas day...unless we are away & there was a call out . Person works 40hrs pw 20 days paid hol + all BH's and paid OT if required. Person is on £19000. before taxes & midlands based. We feel not a bad wage We are a small family run business. We have also given them cash out of our own pocket as additional thank you's. It was just that after the episode of the sleep-in and then taking their partner to the opticians..friends & various shops...and then commenting that I don,t have a poppy (yet!!) I am ex-mil...I didnt realize there was a particular date you had to have it in advance! gripe!...then they commented how untidy my van was inside (end of the weeks work). This was said because I pick them up on theirs being untidy at the start of the week when it should be tidy. It was the backhanded remarks then...Oh can I have a payrise? This person is very cleaver with mind games as we have found over the years. Oddly this person is also a friend and has worked for us for 16 years. Its very dfficult and we feel we are being held over a barrel with the Oh don't worry I'm not planing on leaving comment. Sorry I f I sound like I'm complaining I just want other opinions.

 

[Ian J]

Actually my wife has been very lucky and hasn't had to work Christmas Day for four years now. I'm guessing that there are enough Muslim nurses that don't celebrate Christmas and are happy to work for double time.

 

[Mr D]

thank you for your responses...Right ok...person does not work xmas day...unless we are away & there was a call out . Person works 40hrs pw 20 days paid hol + all BH's and paid OT if required. Person is on £19000. before taxes & midlands based. We feel not a bad wage We are a small family run business. We have also given them cash out of our own pocket as additional thank you's. It was just that after the episode of the sleep-in and then taking their partner to the opticians..friends & various shops...and then commenting that I don,t have a poppy (yet!!) I am ex-mil...I didnt realize there was a particular date you had to have it in advance! gripe!...then they commented how untidy my van was inside (end of the weeks work). This was said because I pick them up on theirs being untidy at the start of the week when it should be tidy. It was the backhanded remarks then...Oh can I have a payrise? This person is very cleaver with mind games as we have found over the years. Oddly this person is also a friend and has worked for us for 16 years. Its very dfficult and we feel we are being held over a barrel with the Oh don't worry I'm not planing on leaving comment. Sorry I f I sound like I'm complaining I just want other opinions.

7 years of no pay rise at that level of income means now they are on a couple of grand a year less than they would have got if you had given pay rises. Their buying power is down - rather than bonuses sort out pay rises.

In around 3 years time you won't have a choice, the minimum wage will have caught up with that pay and you'll be paying out almost a grand a year pay rise. Per person working those hours.
Plus of course contribution to pension scheme and employer NI.

 

[Newchodge]

So statutory minimum holidays and £9.13 per hour. Not great, but not minimum wage. You need to decide if you are an employer or a friend.

No pay rise for 7 years has seriously eroded their income. Awarding bonuses is not the wy to deal with a lack of pay rises, employees need certainty. Unless of course the bonus is fully structured and a contgractual entitlement. The latter seems unlikely given you have arbitrarily decided not to award the bonus that had been due because he had the temerity to ask for a pay rise. Have you read Oliver Twist?

 

[SamBro]

The bonus was not to be awarded for leaving our company open by not following up a treatment which if had not been dealt with by my partner could have caused another business problems. This could been very serious without going into detail. The persons attitude was very flippant regarding this when I had a meeting with them. Shrugging of shoulders & dunno! Slept in !. The week prior they had gone on holiday & had not followed procedures with the mobile phone which they had been reminded about previously!. Caused me a whole day of trying to contact their relatives to get in touch with their partner to tell them to change the AM as they had just switched the phone off. It just seems that these incidents have come at the same time and I feel let down. I have told them this.

 

[Paul Norman]

I think it is completely reasonable to ask for a pay rise.

After 7 years without one, I am amazed they bothered though. My advice to them, if they started a thread on the subject, would be to seek employment somewhere else.

And not wanting them to win is a very poor reason for not giving their request courteous consideration. Because that is the right response. Do some research. See how their wage stacks up in the market place. Go through the details of your reasoning with them.

If they have performance issues, they should already have been raised through an on going process of clear communication between a good boss and an employee. If they have never been raised, throwing them in the pot as part of the negotiation is needlessly provocative.

 

[quikshop]

I'm still struggling to see your side of this particular issue, however could they be playing up because they feel under-valued? Are they struggling with paying the bills, stressed about getting through the month?

These could lead to passive resentment that shows itself in a lack of care about your processes for admin tasks such as booking a holiday, timeliness.

It sounds like your posts are a conflation of a couple of issues; it's probably worth writing down exactly what the issues are and how they are related - mind maps are a useful tool for clarifying emotive issues like this.

 

[SamBro]

I do not think they are struggling , in the last month they have been to America & Hungary and just purchased a car . This person has also previously said they are not motivated by money. It was mainly the timing of the ask!. We had just lost 2 contracts that day also & they knew.

 

[Newchodge]

I do not think they are struggling , in the last month they have been to America & Hungary and just purchased a car . This person has also previously said they are not motivated by money. It was mainly the timing of the ask!. We had just lost 2 contracts that day also & they knew.

They may well be motivated by your attitude towards your employees which, if your posts on here are anything to go by, is appalling.

 

[quikshop]

I do not think they are struggling , in the last month they have been to America & Hungary and just purchased a car . This person has also previously said they are not motivated by money. It was mainly the timing of the ask!. We had just lost 2 contracts that day also & they knew.

The following is still just conjecture, but I think you are conflating a number of issues;

1. Your company's performance
2. The worth of your employee
3. Emotive response

Unless your employee contributed to the loss of those contracts then they are your concern, not your employees. Just because they are aware of the performance of the company, they almost certainly will not view that through the same lense you do.

Is your employee of value to your business (Newchodge will not like this question). If not, replace them with someone who can add value. If they are of value you run the risk of losing them if you do not financially reward them - everyone at work is motivated by money, even if its not the primary motivation.

Your personal response to what you perceive as insensitive timing is something you need to be retrospective about. Take the emotion out of the equation entirely and just look at the facts, even if they were deliberately provocative it shouldn't have a baring if they add value to your business. The exception here is if you deem their behaviour disruptive to your business in which case you need to follow your own clearly documented processes for addressing this scenario.

 

[The Byre]

in the last month they have been to America & Hungary and just purchased a car .

So what? One of our people here just bought a house - and then? That doesn't mean that she shouldn't be paid properly! In fact, I believe she gets more than me! Also irrelevant! She also took three moths off to have a baby, something I would find somewhat hard to do, as I am (a) too old to have babies, and (b) a man.

This person has also previously said they are not motivated by money.

That is as may be, but money is that collection of little tokens we give one another for doing a good job. We tell the bloke in sales that he is a great salesman by paying him for all the sales he makes. We tell Mrs Muggins in admin that she is doing a great job by paying her properly and keeping up with inflation.

Your problem is not new. Staff want to be paid properly, but the business cannot afford to dole-out the extra cash, particularly not, if we take payroll taxes, NI and other costs into consideration.

There is a way around this dilemma - you structure your operation into small profit islands, each independent of the others. Everybody gets paid according to what they achieve. There are many ways to do this, ranging from the brothel model in which girls pay to be there and get to keep all the money, to the garage mechanic model, in which each job has a set rate regardless of how long it takes to get done, through to the salesman and his commission. The brothel model is more or less the same as the film studio model - each facility at places like Pinewood is a separate company that pays a fee to be there.

And as @quikshop points out, you are confusing several issues. I am friends with those who work at our place and we go out of our way to help one another out. That does not mean that friendship should colour a working business relationship or the need to pay people properly.

 

[SamBro]

I was only replying to the question if they were struggling regarding the holiday & car.

Question ..is £19,000. a low wage ? Midlands area service industry as an example something like vending machine fillerupper ?

 

[tony84]

You cant run a business like that!
They asked for a pay rise so theyre not getting a bonus.

A bonus btw is usually paid for going above and beyond, it is not in place of a pay rise which would usually be expected at least a couple of times in 7 years even if not every year (obviously 7 years ago the world was still on its knees).

Who cares whether the push for a pay rise has come from the employee, their partner or Dave in the local pub?! If someone has stayed with you for 7 years without a pay rise, that tells me they either can not go anywhere else or they are loyal. In my eyes, you reward loyalty.

My thoughts are:
1) You need to run your business like an adult.
2) Stop treating a bonus as anything other than a reward for hitting targets/going above and beyond.
3) Remember that it is business, it is not personal. Could you imagine working for Tesco and asking for a pay rise and then the manager saying your not getting your bonus because you asked for a payrise. Ridiculous, childish and pathetic. "im not letting them win" its not a nursery you run is it and the toddlers behaviour is rubbing off on you?
4) Remember this is a person you are dealing with, not a slave. If your income/profits have gone up. Why should an employees not go up also if they have stuck with you for 7 years (god knows why! I would have told you where to shove your bonus and your job).

 

[The Byre]

Question ..is £19,000. a low wage ? Midlands area service industry as an example something like vending machine fillerupper ?

I have no idea! But seven years ago, you were paying her £19k and obviously thought that £19k was the right rate for the job - today you are paying her £17k ppp (purchasing power parity), She will be painfully aware of this!

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Could i make a sugestion, proceed at quick walk to nearest Waterstones and purchase a book on man management, as it sounds like you need a refresher in that area
PS never forget these people are paying your wages, without them you are a one man team earning peanuts

 

[Mr D]

I was only replying to the question if they were struggling regarding the holiday & car.

Question ..is £19,000. a low wage ? Midlands area service industry as an example something like vending machine fillerupper ?

From April its just a couple of grand above minimum wage. In 2 years time it will be just a couple of hundred pounds above minimum wage.

After that it will be under minimum wage.

 

[SamBro]

Profit has not gone up. Our income has not gone up either.

 

[Mr D]

I do not think they are struggling , in the last month they have been to America & Hungary and just purchased a car . This person has also previously said they are not motivated by money. It was mainly the timing of the ask!. We had just lost 2 contracts that day also & they knew.

Then perhaps they want to take bigger holidays, pay for another car, spend money on going out.
What they do with their money is up to them. Whether you give a pay rise is up to you.

And whether they stay at work is up to them.

You losing contracts is irrelevant to their desire for a pay rise. If they'd waited a couple of days before asking would it have somehow been better?

 

[Mr D]

Profit has not gone up. Our income has not gone up either.

Then look at changing something within your business. Standing still in business will tend to overall be a slide towards closing. Costs will tend to go up - your suppliers of goods and services will tend to give annual pay rises to their staff.

 

[SamBro]

You losing contracts is irrelevant to their desire for a pay rise. If they'd waited a couple of days before asking would it have somehow been better?

No it was the non caring attitude towards the potential serious consequences of not following up the job then using the van & aslo the telephone. Just been giving attitude a lot and not following instructions.

 

[billybob99]

If this person was capable of finding a higher paying job, I'm sure they would have left ages ago.

You are doing a fine job.

And you don't need to read no books on managing people, all those books are pure bs for people who want to feel like they've learnt something.

I would start looking for a replacement that appreciates a nice wage for a very simple job, then tell this person in question to do one, before Christmas.

 

[tony84]

Your profit has not gone up at all in 7 years?
You realise with your name your accounts can be found on companies house...

 

[Paul Norman]

Having read through this thread, and the OP's responses, I think what was actually being asked for was for us all to agree that this employee was a bit of a cad and should be screwed down to what will very soon be an illegal wage.

Thankfully, the good folks here at UKBF have not done that.

I honestly think the best way forward is for us to be allowed to speak to this employee on the OP's behalf so that we can help them find a new employer.

 

[Mr D]

No it was the non caring attitude towards the potential serious consequences of not following up the job then using the van & aslo the telephone. Just been giving attitude a lot and not following instructions.

Which is separate from the request for a pay rise.

Two different issues. Deal with separately.

 

[Awinner2]

Well I just checked on G and 9,50-10.50 p/h seems going rate for vending machine fillers around B'ham. However to illustrate what not paying regular increase can lead to. my HGV driving son got a nice pay rise recently. He had not had a rise for 3.5 years although bosses kept saying it's being reviewed. So, fed up, he got another job offer, When he put in his notice, boss said why you going mate, we respect your work ethic and the clients love you too. What could make you stay? He said match what they are offering. They did, he stayed and his wage went from 32K to 44K pa. Just shows how desperate the trucking industry is for good staff.

 

[MikeJ]

We have also given them cash out of our own pocket as additional thank you's

You do realise you've just admitted breaking the law?

 

[Ian J]

I bet that you wished that you hadn't come here and asked now. Unfortunately one of the features of this forum is the willingness of so many to "put the boot in" and so far we are up to 39 almost identical posts with no doubt a few more ready to come along and have a dig too.

It's no wonder that so many of the old regulars don't bother much any more