Ebay refund question...

[Matt-LW]

Hi everyone..

Looking for some advice with an eBay sale (i'm a private seller, not a business).

Sold an item via eBay auction which was listed explicit as 'needing some tlc or for parts'.

Buyer made no effort to make contact prior to bidding (or shipping, where I could have done something for them) to enquire about the exact condition of internal part they were after.

Buyer has received the item then told me they need to return it, details some corrosion on an internal part, but also mentioning in the same message that this is common on the item in question. This is cosmetic and does not affect functionality. My listing stated 'No Returns' so I declined the request.

My rational been that the item was supplied in the condition listed, the buyer made no effort to confirm condition of a part they were after, they mentioned themselves it is common condition the item had been shipped to them and the listing stated 'no returns'.

Obviously they have now opened an dispute stating the item was not as described (which it was not, and I believe is an abuse of the dispute system to cover there own risk and lack of due diligence). Adding anther reason (blowing fuses when turned on) which was not originally mentioned. I suspect fictitious or they have cause to try and support there own claim.

Does the eBay/Paypal dispute system still by default find in flavor of the buyer, no mater how much they are trying to abuse the system or do they actually look at cases and apply some common sense and the facts?

Now I am concerned Paypal will just refund their money and I will be left without the payment or the item been returned, or if returned it will be damaged further. Are there any options for dealing with cases like this? Is it worth fighting the eBay/Paypal dispute or will that just be an uphill battle for nothing? Do I have any more protection if I say return it for a refund (does that give me the protection if it is not returned as it was or had been damaged etc)?

Am i correct in thinking an eBay auction is the forming of a contract of sale and within the jurisdiction of the small claims court, if I need to take the matter further for resolution?

Thanks for any help/advice!

 

[dotcomdude]

Buyer has received the item then told me they need to return it, details some corrosion on an internal part, but also mentioning in the same message that this is common on the item in question. This is cosmetic and does not affect functionality.

I would say that if the corrosion wasn't mentioned in the original listing, they will win their case. There's nothing in eBay's terms that says they have to contact you to enquire about the condition.

 

[Dolphin-Design]

Call eBay and explain, if you leave it down to the processes of the resolution centre they will almost certainly find in favour of the buyer

 

[Matt-LW]

I would say that if the corrosion wasn't mentioned in the original listing, they will win their case. There's nothing in eBay's terms that says they have to contact you to enquire about the condition.

That I would agree with if I had listed the item as 'in good working order / condition', however it was listed as needing some TLC or for parts.

You wouldn't list every spot of oxidation or paint chip in a used car add for instance, even less so if selling for parts or needing fixing (I would certainly ask for clarification of any issues if i needed a specific part). My question is not about a car, just using as an example.

I would expect a buyer to exercise due diligence and enquire about something like internal parts that are not easily visible in pictures.

Does 'Caveat emptor' not apply to eBay (in regard to used, private seller sales)?

m

 

[dotcomdude]

Does 'Caveat emptor' not apply to eBay (in regard to used, private seller sales

The easiest response to claim on eBay is that a product is 'not as described'. You have said that you expected the buyer to contact you to enquire about the condition of the part. With that said, I really don't think you'll succeed with defending the PayPal/eBay claim.

You can of course take action yourself afterwards through the courts, as neither eBay or PayPal can prevent you from doing so - but again it would be a hard slog.

 

[fisicx]

My listing stated 'No Returns' so I declined the request.

This doesn't cover incorrect or faulty items, items not as described or anything else where there is a dispute.

PayPal are going to refund the money. The buyer nearly always wins.

 

[Matt-LW]

The easiest response to claim on eBay is that a product is 'not as described'. You have said that you expected the buyer to contact you to enquire about the condition of the part. With that said, I really don't think you'll succeed with defending the PayPal/eBay claim.

You can of course take action yourself afterwards through the courts, as neither eBay or PayPal can prevent you from doing so - but again it would be a hard slog.

Yes this is what worries me, eBay/Paypal don't have much, if any, knowledge of the transaction, been a third party and from what I understand will likely side with the buyer, not because it is the right thing to do or the facts support , but because it protects there business model, making a safe environment for online shopping.

I guess my questions is partly, do Paypal/eBay actually look in to cases properly and review the facts before making a decision or is it more of an automated process, in which case is there a system to get it properly looked at so it can be deal with fairly?

My current concern is I will lose the money and the item, or if I do get it back, it will have been damaged by the buyer to help substantiate a fraudulent claim. All this after having gone to the trouble and cost of shipping the item to them.

It would be helpful not to have to go to the trouble of involving the small claims courts, but may well be an option, if not for the cost and loss incurred, for the principle of the matter...

 

[Mr D]

Yes this is what worries me, eBay/Paypal don't have much, if any, knowledge of the transaction, been a third party and from what I understand will likely side with the buyer, not because it is the right thing to do or the facts support , but because it protects there business model, making a safe environment for online shopping.

I guess my questions is partly, do Paypal/eBay actually look in to cases properly and review the facts before making a decision or is it more of an automated process, in which case is there a system to get it properly looked at so it can be deal with fairly?

My current concern is I will lose the money and the item, or if I do get it back, it will have been damaged by the buyer to help substantiate a fraudulent claim. All this after having gone to the trouble and cost of shipping the item to them.

It would be helpful not to have to go to the trouble of involving the small claims courts, but may well be an option, if not for the cost and loss incurred, for the principle of the matter...

Oh yes they will look at the facts.
They will still tend to side with the buyer - there is a problem, either they deal with it or else it can get escalated to someone else who has no knowledge of you at all but has knowledge of their customer.

Either way you will usually lose.

 

[Matt-LW]

This doesn't cover incorrect or faulty items, items not as described or anything else where there is a dispute.

PayPal are going to refund the money. The buyer nearly always wins.

This is what concerns me..... Normally I would only offer cash on collection, so a buyer can have a last opportunity to satisfy themselves something used is what they are after and in appropriate condition for there expectations. This is the first problem I have had on ebay (in many years of selling my old used things, as a private seller, not a business...). Hence a bit green to dealing with.

Yes I realise that, 'no returns' only covers changing of mind or not wanting (which is what I believe the case is, having not met the buyers unrealistic expectations) , not something that is not as described. However I shipped exactly what was described and it left in working order (A used item, needing some TLC for the reasons/faults mentioned). My problem is that the buyers request for a refund was not based on the item 'not been as described', it was based on not meeting their expectation, despite their expectations not been in line with that they had purchased. They either hadn't read the description properly or were taking a chance without making any effort to check on something they themselves (in the messaged asking for a return) have said is 'very common. The item supplied was not faulty and was in the condition it was described as. They seem to think the risk element (and costs of shipping to them) should lie with the seller

The buyer now suddenly has another issue, now they have made a Paypal claim.stating 'not as described'. But have not brought this supposed issue to me to be able to remedy, awfully convenient and my gut feeling is they are abusing the item not as described system to cover there own failings...

Anyway it is probably one that will get put down to experience, may be it's the newer generations that expect everyone else to wipe there @ss for them... personally If I buy something via an auction that's listed as used, with faults, needing some tlc etc then that's my risk (I try and mitigate MY risk by asking the odd question)...), not the sellers. Different story if an item had been described as 'as new', 'good condition' etc


One other question, with a dispute, I take it there is not guarantee or requirement that the item will be returned and there is no recourse for something been returned but having been damaged (in the context of eBay/Paypal system, I understand the small claims court is the real option to deal with).

Regards,

m

 

[alan1302]

Have you discussed any of this with eBay at the moment? I've found in the past if you can get talking to someone there you can often get stuff sorted out.

 

[Matt-LW]

No I haven't yet, but on my list to do. Do you have any experience of how best to contact them (never had to so unsure if they can be phoned or if needs to be email or webchat etc... these large internet based companies seem to be so faceless ...)?

Also does contacting eBay still apply as the dispute was raised via Paypal and not eBay?

Regards,

m

 

[alan1302]

No I haven't yet, but on my list to do. Do you have any experience of how best to contact them (never had to so unsure if they can be phoned or if needs to be email or webchat etc... these large internet based companies seem to be so faceless ...)?

Also does contacting eBay still apply as the dispute was raised via Paypal and not eBay?

Regards,

m

I'd start with eBay first - the buyer should have listed their refund request through them and not PayPal. I'd try and get on a webchat if you can...sometimes can be slow going on their but stick with it and be very insistent.

 

[MBE2017]

All you can do is concentrate on your defence, stating the exact item listed and photographed was supplied, with the for parts listed, and slight corrosion occurs on all metal parts even after a few days sometimes.

Since your buyer did not specify the exact part they were after, and you made no claim as to it’s condition, you have a chance, but ebay and PayPal are a law to themselves when it comes to refunds. They might decide to credit the buyer at their cost.

 

[Financial-Modeller]

You wouldn't list every spot of oxidation or paint chip in a used car add for instance

...But you would mention 'stone chips commensurate with age of vehicle' or similar.

I suspect eBay/Paypal will decide in favour of the buyer. What is the value of the item?

 

[Matt-LW]

...But you would mention 'stone chips commensurate with age of vehicle' or similar.

I suspect eBay/Paypal will decide in favour of the buyer. What is the value of the item?

So do I, but their has been some helpful information posted here and i'm sure of my position, I just need to fight my corner (not to mention pi$$ed off with the attitude and way the buyer is going about things...).

..But by the same token you probably wouldn't mention 'rust in line with the age' listing a car, certainly not corrosion that is not visible/in the body work e.g. within the engine bay. All the cars I have had have rust internally, like on the exhaust manifold, bolts etc not to mention the under-body...which has NEVER been mentioned in the add's, there listed as used that covers the condition..
m

 

[Nico Albrecht]

Jope, you are going to lose this one badly and it is 100% your fault. Your description " needs some TLC " is open for arguments under the " not as described " ebay case. Hence ebay will side with the seller on this one. My understanding of TLC might be different than your understanding of it.

Ebay advises to be as accurate as possible. Words like TLC make it to easy to open a return case

Refund buyer, get it returned at your cost, hope he doesn't damage it because you pissed him off you and move on.

 

[Alison Moore]

It sounds like eBay will side with the buyer as you weren't explicit in the exact condition of the part. - you have to be as detailed as possible and even then, you'll still get people trying it on. I've sold 'working' items as 'for spares and repairs' as they work but only in certain conditions - even then people have tried to return the goods as they couldn't get them working to their satisfaction! When it comes to the buyer damaging the goods, that's your word against his and there's not much you can do to prove that they have broken it. With eBay I often find it's easier to accept the return (or refund if it's not an expensive item) as it's really not worth all the hassle.

 

[Matt-LW]

Thanks for the reply Alison, I'm guessing that will happen to as I've said, but hoping some sense will prevail. Good lesson in why I usually ask for cash on collection.. just not practical atm ... I guess one person trying it on in 15 or 20 odd years using ebay/paypal isn't to bad.... Really does seem Paypa; is completely open to abuse and sellers have little protection...

Out of curiosity, what's happened when you have had people trying to return things that have been sold as spares or repair?

Regards,

m

 

[Matt-LW]

To update this thread:

So the buyer eventually shipped the item back to me, as Paypal instructed, arrived end of last week and surprise surprise when plugged in it work just as it did when it left me..

Dropped Paypal a message (not the easiest thing to do..) over the weekend, stating my unhappiness about the buyers dishonesty and sent them a couple of pictures. Did also mention contacting the financial services Ombudsman if not properly looked in to.

No direct response to my message, however I've just had a message about the dispute saying it has been refused (thus, surprisingly, found in my favour). The reason stated was the buyer was unable to provide tracking info to confirm delivery of the return. Which is great, but the item was returned with ParcelForce (so there will be tracking info) and I have also confirmed that I have received it back (and sent them a picture of the item, working...). Guessing they've kept the buyer happy and taken the hit themselves on this one, guessing they don't want the matter taken further...?!

Good result, but a lot of effort to get to..

m