Corbyn. Do they not get it?

[MBE1]

Do you have links with evidence for any of this, including the motivations, knowledge and awareness of each actor? Or are you jumping to conclusions?

Just my own eyes watching live on tv. Unsubstantiated claims made publicly in front of himself, he did not object in the slightest to his own Jewish female MP being slandered publicly, one word of support, or asking for proof could have changed things, he sat silent throughout.

I've seen plenty of bullying over the years to recognise it when I see it.

Just found this piece...

"
The embattled Labour leader made a speech outlining the results of a report by the former director of Liberty saying that claiming Jewish people were “part of some kind of media conspiracy…is just wrong”.

But a man handing out leaflets linked to Momentum, an activist group that supports Mr Corbyn, then verbally attacked Ruth Smeeth.

Witnesses said the campaigner accused the Labour MP for Stoke-on-Trent North and Kidsgrove of “colluding” with the right-wing media, after refusing to hand a leaflet to Ms Smeeth and taking down her name.

Ms Smeeth said she was “verbally attacked” and accused of being part of a media conspiracy.
“It is beyond belief that someone could come to the launch of a report on antisemitism in the Labour Party and espouse such vile conspiracy theories about Jewish people, which were ironically highlighted as such in Ms Chakrabarti's report, while the leader of my own party stood by and did absolutely nothing,” she added.

“People like this have no place in our party or our movement and must be opposed.”

The MP called for Mr Corbyn to resign after the incident, saying he failed to intervene.

“Until today I had made no public comment about Jeremy’s ability to lead our party, but the fact that he failed to intervene is final proof for me that he is unfit to lead, and that a Labour Party under his stewardship cannot be a safe space for British Jews,” Ms Smeeth added. "

 

[roydmoorian]

An unelectable labour party that is true to its own beliefs is worth far more than a middle ground of power hungry self serving bastards who will change their beliefs in order to get power. That power does not help the labour party supporters, so it is meaningless. It only helps the political class who have let down those who need a voice, a voice which Jeremy Corbyn gave them.

/Rant off.

Vote Corbyn, get Conservative. OK.

So are we looking at the end of Democracy as we know it or should we be looking for major reform in the form of ...http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/

Had we had PR(STV) at the 2010 and 2015 General Elections then we would most probably never had had this recent referendum. But we would most likely be living under a less exteme government.

 

[Cobby]

I do not claim to have much knowledge on Labour, but most of Corbyns recent support outside parliment last week seemed to be socialists far left, not what would be true labour supporters.

No True Scotsman, eh?

So who are 'true' labour supporters?

People who support the extreme left wing stance, the left wing stance, the middle ground, New Labour's Conservative-Party-In-Disguise stance? Do they support workers rights, human rights, employers rights, state's rights? Do they permit or reject false-dichotomies about the nature of our government, its role, its relationship with the EU or our place in the world? Or perhaps you mean "original" Labour supporters, older folk who were Labour supporters during a particular era?

Specificity is important.

 

[MBE1]

No True Scotsman, eh?

So who are 'true' labour supporters?

People who support the extreme left wing stance, the left wing stance, the middle ground, New Labour's Conservative-Party-In-Disguise stance? Do they support workers rights, human rights, employers rights, state's rights? Do they permit or reject false-dichotomies about the nature of our government, its role, its relationship with the EU or our place in the world? Or perhaps you mean "original" Labour supporters, older folk who were Labour supporters during a particular era?

Specificity is important.

You would need to go to one of these demonstrations to get your answers, it was just my opinion, no-one seemed to think different when Militant infiltrated labour years ago, something similar is happening now IMO.

No proof apart from what I see and hear, still no comment on the lack of decency from Corbyn though, you seem to like to divert things a lot when you ask for details, but don't wish to give answers.

The only thing you want to talk about is what is a true Labour supporter, from your own list of supporting workers and human rights, surely that rules out Corbyn himself then based on his lack of support for his own MP accused with no proof publicly at the meeting?

 

[The Byre]

People - the proof of the pudding is in the eating!

If Corbyn was the real choice of the electorate, then voters at elections and people answering opinion polls would be rushing to his side.

Sadly, for Joe Elector, he or she has a choice Tweedle-Dum and Tweedle-Dee - except in Scotland. One look North of Hadrian's Wall and you will see that the Labour Party has actually managed the near impossible!

Despite the Bedroom Tax, (which is seen by the Scots as anti-Scottish, as there is no one-bedroom public housing in Scotland) despite Thatcher's abortive Scotland-only Poll Tax, despite her taking the revenue from North Sea oil and using it to bolster her 'reforms' that were deeply unpopular in Scotland, despite the Conservative government giving away Scottish fishing rights - yes, despite all these things, the Labour Party in Scotland has actually managed to fall behind the Conservatives.

I don't have a dog in this race! A plague on all your houses!

But there is something profoundly wrong with a political system that has managed to produce one numpty after another as leaders of political parties. If we thought that Atlee, Heath, Wilson, Thatcher and Major were idiots - just look at the state of the front benches today! Throwing-out time at the Pig-and-Whistle could produce better!

The standard of debate in The House is below that of most Upper Sixth forms. I seem to remember having more thoughtful and civilized debates at school, than are today heard in the House of Commons.

The country is going through a massive constitutional crisis. The ship is rudderless, the helmsman is AWOL, the captain is below desks getting ready to jump ship, the navigator has just discovered that he has all the wrong maps and the first mate has become delusional and is pointing aft and muttering "Steady as she goes!"

As the ship drifts away into unchartered waters, the crew have abandoned their posts and are playing rounds of Gin-Rummy to see who wins the pot and becomes the next captain!

There was an alternative crew rowing alongside, but instead of trying to catch-up and take over, a fight's broken out on their boat and they're taking on water. Instead of getting back onto the oars, they are now fighting over who gets to throw their coxswain overboard!

And into that maelstrom of utter lunacy, we shall launch the Chilcot Report in a couple of days!

If this was the script to a film, it would feature Charles Hawtrey as the leader of the opposition, with a hapless Jim Dale as the Prime Minister, with Kenneth Williams and Barbara Windsor as his replacements.

 

[quikshop]

The country is going through a massive constitutional crisis. The ship is rudderless, the helmsman is AWOL, the captain is below desks getting ready to jump ship, the navigator has just discovered that he has all the wrong maps and the first mate has become delusional and is pointing aft and muttering "Steady as she goes!"

You can't better a tedious monologue from a Scottish nationalist to stir the Union passions on a Monday morning

Your ultra-nationalist leader has been given the brush-off by the EU politburo, and now she wails in the wind hoping to muster enough support to do to the Scottish people what Brexit is doing to us all but by a factor of 10.

The ultra-nationalist SNP have only their own financial mismanagement to blame for woes North of the border, and should come clean to the Scottish people for ranking alongside Hungary and Bulgaria in having EU funds meant to better people's social mobility suspended for accounting 'irregularities'.

 

[The Byre]

Your ultra-nationalist leader has been given the brush-off by the EU politburo, and now she wails in the wind hoping to muster enough support to do to the Scottish people what Brexit is doing to us all but by a factor of 10.

My point being, Westminster is doing its level best to make this possible!

If the Labour and Conservative parliamentary parties want to prevent the break-up of the Union, they have to put all their toys back in the pram and start behaving like adults!

Carry on like this and Brexit will happen without any trade agreement, Gibraltar will be taken over by Spain and Scotland will become independent.

If that's what you want, then Carry-On!

 

[quikshop]

Carry on like this and Brexit will happen without any trade agreement, Gibraltar will be taken over by Spain and Scotland will become independent.

A mix of wistful wishful thinking and conflation

As much as I mock your nationalism, I do believe that dīvide et īmpera is in play. Very little happens on the World stage by chance, and the end of the Union would be the only sure way of making us obstinate Brits more compliant.

So Gibraltar will never belong to Spain, but it will not belong to the UK either in time. Spain will be too consumed with noisy Catalonia.

And the minority in Scotland will get their wish for independence from Westminster but not on the terms you are hoping for... better start brushing up on your Ode to Joy and watch your national flower wilt.

 

[The Byre]

I'm just the messenger, I am not advocating anything here!

So no shooting please!

 

[quikshop]

I'm just the messenger, I am not advocating anything here!

Messengers are always the first to get shot

 

[Cobby]

You would need to go to one of these demonstrations to get your answers, it was just my opinion, no-one seemed to think different when Militant infiltrated labour years ago, something similar is happening now IMO.

No, I was asking what *your* definition of a True Labour supporter is. You keep shifting the definition you are using to make your arguments. Also, what militancy are you referring to? Corbyn?

No proof apart from what I see and hear, still no comment on the lack of decency from Corbyn though, you seem to like to divert things a lot when you ask for details, but don't wish to give answers.

Why do you think I have answers? I didn't know anything about it and even the news stories you linked didn't seem to be carrying much in the way of who was where and heard what. I don't know enough about the incident to pass comment other than to say precisely that.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

There has been a trend in UK politics in recent years for the party leaders to appoint ministers and shadow ministers who are no threat to their position. This means we have a cabinet of insignificant figures who just do not know how to be leaders.

We also have government by media. Politicians have very little chance to come across as leaders. On TV and radio all they can do is react to hostile, provocative and often ignorant questions. If anyone remembers great speeches from the past, Churchill, Macmillan, Bevan etc those speeches were not part of an interview.

 

[Cobby]

There has been a trend in UK politics in recent years for the party leaders to appoint ministers and shadow ministers who are no threat to their position. This means we have a cabinet of insignificant figures who just do not know how to be leaders.

We also have government by media. Politicians have very little chance to come across as leaders. On TV and radio all they can do is react to hostile, provocative and often ignorant questions. If anyone remembers great speeches from the past, Churchill, Macmillan, Bevan etc those speeches were not part of an interview.

Modern interview 'journalism' seems to be very much about prompting for soundbites that can be used in headlines, and of course without context those headlines can be made to say things quite different from the original intention.

It's buzzfeed for serious news and it makes me feel so sad.

 

[Newchodge]

I started this thread. I started it in an effort to explain why I thought Jeremy Corbyn was a GOOD THING.

I cannot believe how wrong I was. I have now read the attached link and realise that I might have been wrong.

https://markfiddaman.wordpress.com/2015/08/21/6-links-jeremy-corbyn-doesnt-want-you-to-know-about/

Or not.

 

[ffox]

I cannot believe how wrong I was. I have now read the attached link and realise that I might have been wrong.

LOL. But keep in mind the fact, they ALL do have feet of clay. Sometimes these only become apparent when they try to walk on water

 

[Newchodge]

LOL. But keep in mind the fact, they ALL do have feet of clay. Sometimes these only become apparent when they try to walk on water

I do understand that. It just seems that most of our current crop of politicians, on every side, have legs of clay, maybe torsos as well.

 

[Cobby]

https://markfiddaman.wordpress.com/2015/08/21/6-links-jeremy-corbyn-doesnt-want-you-to-know-about/

I would wager he's not even aware of those links.

Any link I see that includes that particularly buzzfeed-esque turn of phrase gets immediately ignored.

 

[Newchodge]

I would wager he's not even aware of those links.

Any link I see that includes that particularly buzzfeed-esque turn of phrase gets immediately ignored.

I assume, Cobby, that you didn't read the link? It is a really good satire.

 

[Cobby]

I assume, Cobby, that you didn't read the link? It is a really good satire.

I'll add it to my "check it out later" list.

 

[billmccallum1957]

The Labour party are falling apart to my delight, they will never get into power when they can't support their own leader. Let them keep going as they are, at least we will have a government in power where their main interest is to bring this country forward.

I do try to keep out of these political threads, for two reasons:

1 I don't know enough to make an informed judgement
2 I don't believe our politicians give a sh*t about the people they are supposed to represent.

Matthew's statement (above) is probably the most deluded I have read yet. I have yet to see any government in power whose main interest is the country, their main interest is their own political and personal agenda, the country seems to be the last thing on their minds.

If the so-called developed nations spent less on arms and more on people, maybe (just maybe) they could do something useful.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures