Corbyn. Do they not get it?

[sirearl]

Blimey a nearly sensible debate.

Whats the world coming to.

 

[ffox]

Have a family of scum in number 10 and all 20 of those perfectly acceptable homes become horrible places that no one wants to live in.

This is the crux of the leadership problem. Such issues used to be dealt with by a local authority rent officer. The private landlord is not equipped to deal with problem tenants, he can only evict non payers and those who do damage. Police are so few in number that they can't deal with 'neighbourhood disputes'. So avid are we to control the budget that we have hacked away all of the control and management in our society and rely instead on people being 'decent'. The dysfunctional in our society need leading and managing and this in turn requires commitment from our leaders and from the public at large.

Absolutely. We need a leader who will not disown and disenfranchise half the population. Only problem is, I don't see one from where I'm sitting.

 

[The Byre]

Incidentally, what was the result of the debate, apart from an extreme downturn in productivity?

I was hailed as a near-genius - but had to admit that your theory was not my idea at all. The consensus was that JC should hang in there. It was also mentioned that the leading lights will have been briefed on the contents of the Chilcot Report, as the Straws and Blairs of this world have had the relevant parts sent to them for their 'right of reply'.

I pointed out that Alistair Campbell has been all over the media lately and has been talking to senior right-wing MPs and that there might be a connection. "Blair and Co must have spoken to him and asked him for advice and I do know that many of the sitting MPs are in total awe still of the Old Guard."

At the close of the discussion, Bookkeeping and Accounts pointed out that there is a nasty smell in the closed area between two buildings and a similar smell in an upstairs storage room. I said "Well, call a plumber!" Accounts pointed out that a plumber was due to service a central heating boiler anyway. "Ask him to look at the smell!" she said.

Since that momentous discussion, closing as it did on the shock news that there is a funny smell in an area where we hope in the near future to be placing racks of servers, a little bird within the Scottish Labour Party has told me that several senior figures (e.g. Jamie Glackin, former chairman of Scottish Labour) are regretting their opposition to Scottish independence.

This brouhaha in Westminster could see the break-away of Scottish Labour from the main party - there seems to have been a serious series of rifts there anyway, as Scottish Labour blames English Labour for its woes (and near total wipe-out at the last election).

I don't agree with them, though the poor quality of Westminster leadership can not have helped, but they (and all other major parties) need to look long and hard at the poor quality of all politicians. From lowly councillor to lofty Prime Minister, it seems to draw people of remarkably poor judgement and intellect.

Talking to your average councillor nowadays, is like talking to an inmate of a home for the mentally enfeebled on day-release.

 

[billmccallum1957]

... need to look long and hard at the poor quality of all politicians...

It seems the only qualification to be a politician is the ability to talk at length on any subject without actually saying anything meaningful, or answering a direct question.

The "party" system is building up to wholesale collapse, none of the leading politicians seem to have a clue what the country wants, let alone what the country needs.

 

[Newchodge]

I was hailed as a near-genius - but had to admit that your theory was not my idea at all. The consensus was that JC should hang in there. It was also mentioned that the leading lights will have been briefed on the contents of the Chilcot Report, as the Straws and Blairs of this world have had the relevant parts sent to them for their 'right of reply'.

I pointed out that Alistair Campbell has been all over the media lately and has been talking to senior right-wing MPs and that there might be a connection. "Blair and Co must have spoken to him and asked him for advice and I do know that many of the sitting MPs are in total awe still of the Old Guard."

At the close of the discussion, Bookkeeping and Accounts pointed out that there is a nasty smell in the closed area between two buildings and a similar smell in an upstairs storage room. I said "Well, call a plumber!" Accounts pointed out that a plumber was due to service a central heating boiler anyway. "Ask him to look at the smell!" she said.

Since that momentous discussion, closing as it did on the shock news that there is a funny smell in an area where we hope in the near future to be placing racks of servers, a little bird within the Scottish Labour Party has told me that several senior figures (e.g. Jamie Glackin, former chairman of Scottish Labour) are regretting their opposition to Scottish independence.

This brouhaha in Westminster could see the break-away of Scottish Labour from the main party - there seems to have been a serious series of rifts there anyway, as Scottish Labour blames English Labour for its woes (and near total wipe-out at the last election).

I don't agree with them, though the poor quality of Westminster leadership can not have helped, but they (and all other major parties) need to look long and hard at the poor quality of all politicians. From lowly councillor to lofty Prime Minister, it seems to draw people of remarkably poor judgement and intellect.

Talking to your average councillor nowadays, is like talking to an inmate of a home for the mentally enfeebled on day-release.

It wasn't actually my idea, either, but I can't remember where I saw it. Must be getting even older!

I hope your funny smell gets sorted, as I hope our funny smell among the PLP gets sorted.

 

[Cobby]

He stuck to his line, I will give him that, but he did nothing to promote it and went AWOL for 2 key days. So for me there is a lack of conviction about him which is not a good trait in a leader. Personally I would love to see him moved to the cross party Brexit team - I think his policy making and brand of honesty would lead to him making a huge mark on the UK - probably far more of a historical mark than if he became MP

I won't wave his banner with any great effort but the media are largely uninterested in him (see the above argument amount race-to-the-bottom) so you cannot apportion anymore than a small slice of the blame on him for not 'promoting it'. He was doing his rounds but the media aren't interested in detail and nuance; if they can't distill a position down to a six word headline, it doesn't tend to get picked up.

Please don't raise this in the office as I cannot afford to pay for all the downtime; even though I have again used a semi colon, appropriately.

That one's touch and go haha

 

[Cobby]

Have a family of scum in number 10 and all 20 of those perfectly acceptable homes become horrible places that no one wants to live in.

'Scum' occupies every tier of affluence, if you want to campaign for more powers for environmental services to impose penalties then do so, but let's not drift into snobbery.

 

[Cobby]

It seems the only qualification to be a politician is the ability to talk at length on any subject without actually saying anything meaningful, or answering a direct question.

The "party" system is building up to wholesale collapse, none of the leading politicians seem to have a clue what the country wants, let alone what the country needs.

I would say that 'the country' is not dissimilar in its collective opinions to the average retail customers; what they say they want and what they actually want are almost never the same thing.

 

[UKSBD]

'Scum' occupies every tier of affluence, if you want to campaign for more powers for environmental services to impose penalties then do so, but let's not drift into snobbery.

Yes, but if you have money you can move away from it.

 

[Cobby]

Yes, but if you have money you can move away from it.

The core problem and method for addressing it remains, but it's okay to not worry about it because affluent people have a solution available to them?

 

[UKSBD]

The core problem and method for addressing it remains, but it's okay to not worry about it because affluent people have a solution available to them?

The opposite

 

[simon field]

I would say that 'the country' is not dissimilar in its collective opinions to the average retail customers; what they say they want and what they actually want are almost never the same thing.

Four Candles?

 

[MBE1]

JC showed his true colours today, sitting quietly whilst one of his cronies made allegations against a jewish MP of colluding with the press, simply for having a press release handed to her, after they had refused to give her the press release themselves. This was at the press conference on the report of anti semite behaviour in the Labour party, the poor woman left in disgust and I don't blame her.

How could anyone seriously consider voting for this vile man?

At the same press conference they removed microphones from some journalists to prevent questions on his leadership, the guy is a joke, as are Labour at the moment. Very sad state of affairs, the country needs Labour at the moment, but they seem intent on self imploding yet again.

 

[DishonestDave]

If Jeremy could give the entire country away to Argentina, Zimbabwe and Palestine - he would.

From his Twitter feed:

"I was as elected as the Labour Party's leader to redistribute wealth and power"

I can't imagine this would resonate much with small business owners.

The Labour Party are doomed as I see it. Red Jez has brought in a bunch of student moaners and hippies. These are the sort of people that New Labour party members used to be before they "professionalised". They then get parachuted into working-class constituencies they have no connection to and nothing in class with the often working-class constituents.

New Labour have now decided they want Old Labour (the working class) back. To do this they are going to have to cut off Jeremey's lot, who will go to the Lib Dems to chase a demographic that I don't think will go back to them.

 

[Newchodge]

If Jeremy could give the entire country away to Argentina, Zimbabwe and Palestine - he would.

From his Twitter feed:

"I was as elected as the Labour Party's leader to redistribute wealth and power"

I can't imagine this would resonate much with small business owners.

The Labour Party are doomed as I see it. Red Jez has brought in a bunch of student moaners and hippies. These are the sort of people that New Labour party members used to be before they "professionalised". They then get parachuted into working-class constituencies they have no connection to and nothing in class with the often working-class constituents.

New Labour have now decided they want Old Labour (the working class) back. To do this they are going to have to cut off Jeremey's lot, who will go to the Lib Dems to chase a demographic that I don't think will go back to them.

Sorry, but I don't understand a word of this post. Please re-publish it in words that most of us can understand.

 

[DishonestDave]

Sorry, but I don't understand a word of this post. Please re-publish it in words that most of us can understand.

I'm just shooting out. But you can read articles outlying the last points a bit more fluently in The Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...015-were-like-middle-class-ryanair-passengers

You can't have a broad church with metropolitan internationalists and the forgotten working-class. The latter have left Labour in epic proportions, while the former have flocked to it sending membership through the roof. If Labour want to win back the working-class, they have to dump the metropolitans.

Swings in places like Stoke show that UKIP is becoming the center of gravity for the working-class.

 

[Newchodge]

I'm just shooting out. But you can read articles outlying the last points a bit more fluently in The Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...015-were-like-middle-class-ryanair-passengers

You can't have a broad church with metropolitan internationalists and the forgotten working-class. The latter have left Labour in epic proportions, while the former have flocked to it sending membership through the roof. If Labour want to win back the working-class, they have to dump the metropolitans.

Swings in places like Stoke show that UKIP is becoming the center of gravity for the working-class.

No, still don't understand. What are 'articles outlying the last points?' What is 'just shooting out'? Are you just a troll from America using the language of your country to try to influence our democracy?

 

[DishonestDave]

No, still don't understand. What are 'articles outlying the last points?' What is 'just shooting out'? Are you just a troll from America using the language of your country to try to influence our democracy?

I am just going out, away from the computer, out of the house. So I do not have time for lengthy replies.

I am not American and do not live there.

I am not sure how to make it any more clear. Go the the EU Referendum section on The Guardian and read all the posts about how Labour have recognise they have all but lost the working-class vote because they have become too metropolitan.

 

[Newchodge]

I am just going out, away from the computer, out of the house. So I do not have time for lengthy replies.

I am not American and do not live there.

I am not sure how to make it any more clear. Go the the EU Referendum section on The Guardian and read all the posts about how Labour have recognise they have all but lost the working-class vote because they have become too metropolitan.

Doing that will still not make your post intelligible to English native speakers.

 

[DishonestDave]

Doing that will still not make your post intelligible to English native speakers.

Doing what?

 

[sirearl]

Four Candles?

From his Twitter feed:

"I was as elected as the Labour Party's leader to redistribute wealth and power"


.

And your problem with this is what ,that it should only be in the hands of those that inherited it.?

 

[Newchodge]

Doing what?

Bloody hell, Dishonest. If you can't understand your own posts, how do you expect us to?

In the post to which I replied you suggested I should visit a section of the Guardian. That was in response to my comment that i did not understand your post.

Clear now, or do you need a translator. If so, from which language, to which?

 

[DishonestDave]

And your problem with this is what ,that it should only be in the hands of those that inherited it.?

There is already distribution of wealth and power. The government budget accounts for about 40% of GDP. What level of increased taxation do you want?

The Hong Kong government budget accounts for about 13.5% of GDP, yet standards of living are higher pretty much across the board; and when they are not it is probably due to resources and zoning. Their education system produces people with +8 IQ points over the UK. Sounds like a better system to me.

Inheritance tax accounts for about 0.5% of government revenue. I believe the majority of people who would be subject to it engage in tax-planning to avoid it.

 

[DishonestDave]

Bloody hell, Dishonest. If you can't understand your own posts, how do you expect us to?

Again resorting to slander. I understand my posts. I did not know what your question 'Doing what?' was referring to.

If you can ask a specific question as to what you specifically don't understand I will answer.

 

[Newchodge]

Again resorting to slander. I understand my posts. I did not know what your question 'Doing what?' was referring to.

If you can ask a specific question as to what you specifically don't understand I will answer.

I repeat
No, still don't understand. What are 'articles outlying the last points?' What is 'just shooting out'? Are you just a troll from America using the language of your country to try to influence our democracy?

 

[DishonestDave]

I repeat
No, still don't understand. What are 'articles outlying the last points?' What is 'just shooting out'? Are you just a troll from America using the language of your country to try to influence our democracy?

I've answered two of these already.

'shooting out' - I told you I was leaving the house. I went round a few blocks on my bike and now I am back. This is colloquial English from the Midlands.

I am not trolling.

I am not an American and I do not live there.

----

I posted a link to one article. I will try and communicate this in points.

Labour have been loosing the working-class vote. To quantify that go and look at the results of the GE 2015, Scotland election, Welsh Assembly election and recent local elections. As an example you can look at Stoke, where the Labour vote has gone down by half.

Multiple Labour MPs have been making statements in the last year and even more so since the EU referendum that Labour need to win back their working class vote; a vote that has been going to UKIP. See Stoke with about 20% UKIP vote.

These working-class voters have been alienated by a Labour party that has become increasingly metropolitan and internationalist. These are not things that the working-class in general have much sympathy for, yet they are ideas that are represented strongly among some Labour supporters, particularly Corbyn's new recruits.

Thus, the Labour party is in a conundrum. Do they keep the smaller metropolitan and Corbynista demographic, or do they change their message (as Tom Watson has done) to try and recapture the working class demographic. Due to the disparity between the two, it is not feasible to appeal to both. They are more or less at odds.

 

[Newchodge]

I've answered two of these already.

'shooting out' - I told you I was leaving the house. I went round a few blocks on my bike and now I am back. This is colloquial English from the Midlands.

I am not trolling.

I am not an American and I do not live there.

----

I posted a link to one article. I will try and communicate this in points.

Labour have been loosing the working-class vote. To quantify that go and look at the results of the GE 2015, Scotland election, Welsh Assembly election and recent local elections. As an example you can look at Stoke, where the Labour vote has gone down by half.

Multiple Labour MPs have been making statements in the last year and even more so since the EU referendum that Labour need to win back their working class vote; a vote that has been going to UKIP. See Stoke with about 20% UKIP vote.

These working-class voters have been alienated by a Labour party that has become increasingly metropolitan and internationalist. These are not things that the working-class in general have much sympathy for, yet they are ideas that are represented strongly among some Labour supporters, particularly Corbyn's new recruits.

Thus, the Labour party is in a conundrum. Do they keep the smaller metropolitan and Corbynista demographic, or do they change their message (as Tom Watson has done) to try and recapture the working class demographic. Due to the disparity between the two, it is not feasible to appeal to both. They are more or less at odds.

At the risk of labouring a point. What do you mean by 'articles outlying the last points?

At no point did you explain what 'shooting out' meant.

 

[DishonestDave]

At the risk of labouring a point. What do you mean by 'articles outlying the last points?

No problem.

Articles that outline the same as I have just outlined above (minus my observation that Labour cannot appeal to both metro-istas and the working-class).

I can't remember the articles all by title, but Tristram Hunt has written a lot on this:

https://www.theguardian.com/profile/tristramhunt

Others:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...t-for-labour-when-the-party-civil-war-is-over

http://www.theguardian.com/politics...longer-exist-thatcher-destroyed-them-long-ago

At no point did you explain what 'shooting out' meant.

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/threads/corbyn-do-they-not-get-it.359780/page-3#post-2665543

 

[Scott@KarmaContent]

At no point did you explain what 'shooting out' meant.

Yes he did.

Shooting out = nipping out/going out/leaving the house for a short while, just like he explained in his post.

 

[ffox]

These working-class voters have been alienated by a Labour party that has become increasingly metropolitan and internationalist. These are not things that the working-class in general have much sympathy for, yet they are ideas that are represented strongly among some Labour supporters, particularly Corbyn's new recruits.

Can you qualify the statement '...particularly Corbyn's new recruits.' ?
As I understand it Corbyn was elected by the membership on a ticket of his stand against 'metro-ista" thinking. Who are these new recruits?

 

[DishonestDave]

Can you qualify the statement '...particularly Corbyn's new recruits.' ?
As I understand it Corbyn was elected by the membership on a ticket of his stand against 'metro-ista" thinking. Who are these new recruits?

Metro-ista is a combination of the two groups: metropolitans and corbynistas. They do not necessarily hold the same views, but there is overlap. My point being that both groups have virtually no common ground with the working-class, in general.

The new recruits are the people Corbyn has brought in, who would previously have had no interest in a major party: professional protesters, open borders advocates, Marxists and so on.

In some ways, yes, Corbyn was elected as a kickback on certain metro leanings, but on behalf of an even smaller group than metros. The biggest overlap though is on immigration, which seems to be the main issue for the working-class. Labour have been very hesitant to say anything negative about immigration until the last hour of the EU ref. camapaign when Tom Watson blurted out of the blue that we will have to negotiate some curb on immigration with the EU.

I am young and have a relatively broad circle of acquaintances. They fit quite neatly into two categories:

University educated city-dwellers who want to live and work around Europe, generally don't see any problem with free movement, have ideas of EU' unity', generally no sense of national pride and often a sense a national disdain <- they all vote Labour

People who didn't go to University and in many cases college, only interested in going to Europe on holiday, against free movement, don't care about EU 'unity', mild to strong sense of national pride <- either don't vote or vote for UKIP

The latter are the sons and daughters of people who were the bulwark of the Labour heartlands, but the former are the sort of people who are parachuted into Labour constituencies they have no connection to. It was obviously that was not going to work. I see Labour's decline as inevitable unless its repopulated with the people who they want to vote for them.

 

[ffox]

Metro-ista is a combination of the two groups: metropolitans and corbynistas. They do not necessarily hold the same views, but there is overlap. My point being that both groups have virtually no common ground with the working-class, in general.

Thanks for the clarification. Not being a guardian reader I failed to understand the terminology.
To summarise then, your belief is that Corbin's grass root support is largely made up of -

University educated city-dwellers who want to live and work around Europe, generally don't see any problem with free movement, have ideas of EU' unity', generally no sense of national pride and often a sense a national disdain <- they all vote Labour

 

[Swisaw]

We illegally invaded Iraq.

No, we diden't. We liberated Iraq on the request of Iraqi people. If it was not for the liberation of Iraq Saddam's V-bombs would been flying over London long ago.

 

[The Byre]

two categories:
University educated city-dwellers who want to live and work around Europe, generally don't see any problem with free movement, have ideas of EU' unity', generally no sense of national pride and often a sense a national disdain <- they all vote Labour
People who didn't go to University and in many cases college, only interested in going to Europe on holiday, against free movement, don't care about EU 'unity', mild to strong sense of national pride <- either don't vote or vote for UKIP.

You must know at least some normal people!

 

[DishonestDave]

Not being a guardian reader I failed to understand the terminology.

You're not missing out on much, thought there are quite a lot of good comments. They appear to largely beat odd with their readers.

To summarise then, your belief is that Corbin's grass root support is largely made up of -

I don't know any students who support Corbyn, but all that I do know support Labour and more down-to-earth figures like Andy Burnham. From what I have digested Corbyn's main followers are students, but a certain sub-set that are suckers for emotional arguments against any other reasoning. So they tend to be for unlimited immigration from anywhere in the world with no checks or foresight, laissez-welfare, unchecked government spending, free university education regardless of public worth, higher taxes and so on.

You must know at least some normal people!

The Moonies have a shrine in my town.

 

[sirearl]

There is already distribution of wealth and power. The government budget accounts for about 40% of GDP. What level of increased taxation do you want?

The Hong Kong government budget accounts for about 13.5% of GDP, yet standards of living are higher pretty much across the board; and when they are not it is probably due to resources and zoning. Their education system produces people with +8 IQ points over the UK. Sounds like a better system to me.

Inheritance tax accounts for about 0.5% of government revenue. I believe the majority of people who would be subject to it engage in tax-planning to avoid it.

I was more thinking a more even distribution of wealth like not having so many starving people in the world at the same time having so many obese people.

Education gives one knowledge it can not increase intelligence.

 

[ffox]

From what I have digested Corbyn's main followers are students

But, students ain't real people. I say this without disrespect for youth in general or students in particular, but with fond memories of my own idealism at that age. Idealism is rapidly diluted with the realism of life and career. Nor are students so great in number as to deliver the sort of grass roots majority that Corbyn enjoys.

A Labour party leader candidate stood for the party who said everything that I believed in. In particular, he said that one should stand for what one believes in and not temper those beliefs for short-term political gain. I rejoined the Labour party and voted for Jeremy Corbyn.

Is the original start of this thread. Unless The Guardian columnists can produce stats showing that Corbyn's support comes from elsewhere I think I'll stick with the idea that he appeals to old fashioned socialists.

 

[Newchodge]

But, students ain't real people. I say this without disrespect for youth in general or students in particular, but with fond memories of my own idealism at that age. Idealism is rapidly diluted with the realism of life and career. Nor are students so great in number as to deliver the sort of grass roots majority that Corbyn enjoys.



Is the original start of this thread. Unless The Guardian columnists can produce stats showing that Corbyn's support comes from elsewhere I think I'll stick with the idea that he appeals to old fashioned socialists.

Given that I am 60, I consider myself an old fashioned socialist!

 

[Cobby]

JC showed his true colours today, sitting quietly whilst one of his cronies made allegations against a jewish MP of colluding with the press, simply for having a press release handed to her, after they had refused to give her the press release themselves.

Do you have links with evidence for any of this, including the motivations, knowledge and awareness of each actor? Or are you jumping to conclusions?

Inheritance tax accounts for about 0.5% of government revenue. I believe the majority of people who would be subject to it engage in tax-planning to avoid it.

I agree, tax law should be tightened to reduce avoidance.

 

[MBE1]

I do not claim to have much knowledge on Labour, but most of Corbyns recent support outside parliment last week seemed to be socialists far left, not what would be true labour supporters.

It reminds myself of when Kinnock had to expel the Militant supporters, basically a party within a party at a Labour conference, 85 from memory. The only decent speech he ever gave from memory.

I think Labour is being hijacked again from within.