Charlie Hebdo killers

[cjd]

Unreasonableness is the preserve of people, it's our institutions - democracy, criminal justice process systems, educational systems - that make people behave reasonably.

 

[KM-Tiger]

... it's our institutions - democracy, criminal justice process systems, educational systems - that make people behave reasonably.

Indeed, but that only works when all citizens recognise the authority of those institutions.

We have living amongst us people who do not recognise our institutions and want to replace them with their own, eg Sharia courts. And we have, if not actually, then the beginnings of no-go areas in certain cities.

Those things scare me because it will eventually lead to civil war, as Enoch Powell warned.

It's a complex problem with no simple answer. The only thing I'm certain of is that appeasement of minorities through 'multiculturalism' has to stop. Or in other words tolerance of intolerance will lead to disaster.

 

[Davek0974]

Or in other words tolerance of intolerance will lead to disaster.

That is a very important statement there.

 

[cjd]

Indeed, but that only works when all citizens recognise the authority of those institutions.

I think we've been lax in imposing our values on our imigrants, the FGM problem is a case in point. The deal should be that we welcome those who wish to adopt are language and our values, all others can stay at home.

We have living amongst us people who do not recognise our institutions and want to replace them with their own, eg Sharia courts. And we have, if not actually, then the beginnings of no-go areas in certain cities.

I think this is a bit extreme - the majority are fine with our law and Sharia law is quite useful in settling small problems between individuals. The problem is, as always, the fundamentalists who want to go further than that.

It's a complex problem with no simple answer. The only thing I'm certain of is that appeasement of minorities through 'multiculturalism' has to stop. Or in other words tolerance of intolerance will lead to disaster.

We can have multiculturalism within the bounds of our laws. Where we've been going wrong is not efforcing our own laws and not trying harder to integrate and project our values on the the newcomers. But at the moment there are some areas where the tail is attempting to wag the dog.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wo...en-Photoshopped-from-Paris-rally-picture.html

With religion do we really need satirists?

 

[Davek0974]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/wo...en-Photoshopped-from-Paris-rally-picture.html

With religion do we really need satirists?

That is pretty bad, pretty pointless too in a world connected with social media and the likes, a pretty good way to make yourself look like a bunch of sexist ignorant idiots maybe.

 

[cjd]

God save us from ALL religions........

 

[Nuno]

God save us from ALL religions........

Yup.
I'm not superstitious either, touch wood.

 

[sirearl]

it's our institutions - democracy, criminal justice process systems, educational systems - that make people behave reasonably.

LOL.

Try telling that to the millions of civillians slaughtered by our reasonableness.

I believe the last count was 500,000,000,which may be a tad on the low side.

http://greatgameindia.com/indian-ho...billion-excess-deaths-ignored-by-anglo-media/

 

[sirearl]

I suspect the first step on the road to reasonableness may be to stop making weapons that kill our fellow beings so easily.

 

[Davek0974]

I suspect the first step on the road to reasonableness may be to stop making weapons that kill our fellow beings so easily.

That's really going to end well, unless you can persuade those unreasonable types to also lay down their arms.

 

[sirearl]

That's really going to end well, unless you can persuade those unreasonable types to also lay down their arms.

If you ban the manufacturers of arms,then no one has any.

Who do you think are the unreasonable lot.

Only 1 planet and we is all in it together.

 

[Davek0974]

Who is going the ban arms? I don't think we have a "World Police Force" yet.

You don't need weapons to kill somebody.

 

[cjd]

LOL.

Try telling that to the millions of civillians slaughtered by our reasonableness.

Before the state and our institutions we had the random and arbitrary rule of your local feudal baron who basically did whatever the feck he liked and some of them like a lot of very bad things indeed.

Then we had the irrational and unstable fascism of mediaeval religions burning people for thought crime with the king able to do just whatever he liked to anybody and any country.

Like it or not, it was when the state became the monopoly provider of laws and punishments and when the masses got educated that violence in society started to fall and it has plummeted in the Western democracies ever since. It's real progress but for some reason, people seem to want to believe otherwise - despite the facts.

 

[sirearl]

Who is going the ban arms? I don't think we have a "World Police Force" yet.

You don't need weapons to kill somebody.

In most cases you most certainly do,trying to throttle someone with your bare hands is nigh on impossible.

Most weapons are made by a very few large companies in the west and ussr and not for mankinds benefit.

 

[DenisWH]

This is utter tosh. If a Christian regards the Bible in the way you describe then they may as well deny the Christian faith all together. You can't pick and choose whcih bits you like and which you don't.

Yes you can because the contents of the bible and the Koraan are old hat and like other aspects of life, evolvement means that we have to change as we advance technologically and theologically in this world. It isn't tosh to believe that we shouldn't change our ways away from the content of 1000 year old teachings. Lets face it, we don't expect children to go up chimneys to clean them anymore and that's happened in the last 150 years so why should we expect the theological so-called teachings of old to be any more right for the 21st century.
Remember at the time of writing these books nobody was cruising the world with a Kalashnikov under his arm!

 

[Davek0974]

In most cases you most certainly do,trying to throttle someone with your bare hands is nigh on impossible.

Most weapons are made by a very few large companies in the west and ussr and not for mankinds benefit.

I disagree, weapons just make the whole process easier. Are you going to ban all sharp implements as well, the average garden shed is full of tools that would make excellent killing weapons if needed.

 

[sirearl]

I disagree, weapons just make the whole process easier. Are you going to ban all sharp implements as well, the average garden shed is full of tools that would make excellent killing weapons if needed.

Well you could try going up against the current nuclear weapons with a pitch fork,but as they are 6,000 times more powerfull than the bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

I do wonder what odds William Hill will give you.

 

[MASSEY]

France 17

Iraq 120,000.plus

Who mourns them.

I give up.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ears-on-at-least-116000-civilians-killed.html

On ya bike you.

 

[sirearl]

On ya bike you.

today.

Belgian anti-terror raid in Verviers leaves two dead

Boko Harem kills 100 anyone know that.

 

[Nuno]

Thats two less who might do a Boko Harem and kill 100 in Belgium, (or Holland, or France, or Germany, or here). Shame it was only two.
Je suis Belgian copper.

 

[sirearl]

Thats two less who might do a Boko Harem and kill 100 in Belgium, (or Holland, or France, or Germany, or here). Shame it was only two.
Je suis Belgian copper.

Vous êtes a right Charlie to miss the point.

 

[dagr]

I hate to break it you, but people in the West are missing the main point of these attacks, and thinking it's all about them (western society under attack, etc.). It's mainly about a power struggle within Muslim countries, not an East-West or Christian-Muslim war. Sure, ideally the people behind these struggles would love to see Islam dominate the world, but that's just a pipe dream. Their focus is very pragmatic. These attacks are designed to gain home notoriety and are aimed at their power base and followers. They know that the recent heinous acts are aimed for maximum publicity, a publicity that is worldwide and which no one can ignore.

Islam is their vector as it works with the masses, especially for the foot soldiers who can be easily persuaded to carry out the attacks that gain the publicity. The attackers themselves are almost always mentally weak, with both low IQ and emotional intelligence, often being on society's lowest rung with criminal records and being involved in drugs before finding an "empowering Islam". Unfortunately, they are so dumb they can't see how they are being used.

The West should be focusing more on the people and power struggles behind the attacks, and the financial support networks. It's not just about stopping the attackers. Many people still think that groups like Al Qaeda and the Taliban are all living rough in caves in remote hills and don't realise they have official HQ offices in Qatar. Alas, oil complicates things.

 

[Davek0974]

Alas, oil complicates things.

That is possibly the only reason the west gives a damn.

 

[Nuno]

Oil doesn't just complicate things, it is at the core of the fight for power and hence riches.
I'm not sure if power struggles will remain (if they ever were) regional. You are right that we focus on the irrelevant tabloid news, but whilst we do the ME sovereign funds are gaining large influence and power in the west.

 

[cjd]

The attackers themselves are almost always mentally weak, with both low IQ and emotional intelligence, often being on society's lowest rung with criminal records and being involved in drugs before finding an "empowering Islam". Unfortunately, they are so dumb they can't see how they are being used.

Sorry, no. They are very often middle class and well educated. This is the 9/11 ringleader

Atta was born on September 1, 1968 in Kafr el-Sheikh, located in Egypt's Nile delta region.[8] His father, Mohamed el-Amir Awad el-Sayed Atta, was a lawyer, educated in both sharia and civil law. His mother, Bouthayna Mohamed Mustapha Sheraqi, came from a wealthy farming and trading family and was also educated. Bouthayna and Mohamed married when she was 14, via an arranged marriage. The family had few relatives on the father's side and kept a distance from Bouthayna's family. In-laws characterized Atta's father as "austere, strict, and private," and neighbors considered the family reclusive.[10] Atta was the only son, but he had two older sisters who are both well-educated and successful in their careers—one as a medical doctor and the other as a professor.[11]

When Atta was ten, his family moved to the Cairo neighborhood of Abdeen, located near the center of the city. Atta's father continued to keep the family private, and did not allow Atta to socialize with other neighborhood kids. Atta spent most of his time at home studying, excelling in school.[12][13] In 1985, Atta entered Cairo University, where he studied engineering. As one of the highest-scoring students, Atta was admitted into the very selective architecture program during his senior year. In addition to his regular courses, Atta studied English at the American University in Cairo.[14] In 1990, Atta graduated with a degree in architecture,[15] and joined the Muslim Brotherhood-affiliated Engineers Syndicate organization.[8] For several months after graduating, Atta worked at the Urban Development Center in Cairo, where he worked on architectural, planning, and building design.[16] In 1990, Atta's family moved into an 11th floor apartment in Giza.[15][17]

 

[dagr]

Some of the 9/11 World trade bombers were well educated, but they are more the exception. Most of the recent attackers in France and Belgium have a history of criminality and drug use prior to taking up extremist Islam, and even those who had no criminal records were poorly educated and doing jobs that required no special skills. They are not ring leaders, or leaders of anything.

 

[cjd]

Some of the 9/11 World trade bombers were well educated, but they are more the exception. Most of the recent attackers in France and Belgium have a history of criminality and drug use prior to taking up extremist Islam, and even those who had no criminal records were poorly educated and doing jobs that required no special skills. They are not ring leaders, or leaders of anything.

Sure, there's all sorts of criminals involved - many of them become fundamentalists in jail - but there's also a pattern of middle class, educated people also joining in. You can't dismiss them all as just drug addicted, no-brain criminals. Successfully carrying out these acts requires some intelligence and funding and you don't get funding and training from Syria if you're a no-hoper.

Nidal Hasan, Abdulmutallab and Humam al-Balawi are jihadists who were educated and came from privileged middle- and upper-class backgrounds. Hasan was an American-trained U. S. Army doctor, Abdulmutallab was a London engineering student and the son of a wealthy Nigerian banker, and double-agent Dr. Humam al-Balawi was a member of the Jordanian professional class.

Many Westerners are confused by the willingness of university-educated middle-class Muslims to perpetrate barbarous acts of terrorism.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2010/wm-b-fankboner/the-educated-muslim-terrorist/

 

[dagr]

I agree you get fanatics from all walks of life, but I suspect the biggest pool of them are from the no-hopers. The errors committed by the attackers in Paris (leaving ID card in abandoned car, first going to the wrong address for Charlie Hebdo, ...) showed they had no real skill. Same for the Brussels and Toulouse attacks. They did however have a deadly motivation and were able to fire a rifle.

Anyway, my point is not so much about their backgrounds, but that they were easily guided from elsewhere, pawns in a remote power struggle.

 

[sirearl]

Anyway, my point is not so much about their backgrounds, but that they were easily guided from elsewhere, pawns in a remote power struggle.

As is anyone who goes to war.

 

[MASSEY]

Even clever people are prone to saying or doing stupid things. With the majority of terrorists emanating from the middle east it is probably reasonable to suggest that in most cases lack of education and common sense leads one to pick up a gun and kill innocent people in accordance with their interpretation of what they think allah oh mighty would approve of.

If educated muslim terrorists were as prominent as some people seem to think then we wouldn't have time to invade the likes of Iraq or Afghanistan because we'd be in a permanent state of civil war.

We're not at war with Islam in my view, we're at war with a very small percentage of people who act on the koran in a way that the majority of muslims are not prepared to.

I'm not even sure if i feel all that alarmed about the supposed figures on Western muslims having sympathy for terrorists as long as they don't copy them. It's no different to the sympathy Christians have for Christian mass murderers who get the death penalty in the USA and are viewed as having gone to heaven because they found jesus while locked up with nothing to do.

 

[vvaannmmaann]

That is possibly the only reason the west gives a damn.

And Weapons of Mass Destruction.Don't forget them.

 

[simon field]

They're 5 miles high as the crow flies
leavin' vapour trails against a blood red sky
Movin' in from the East toward the West
with Balaclava helmets over their heads, yes!

But if you think that Jesus Christ is coming
Honey you've got another thing coming
If he ever finds out who's hi-jacked his name
He'll cut out his heart and turn in his grave

Islam is rising
The Christians mobilising
The world is on its elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds

It's war, she cried, It's war, she cried, this is war
Drop your possessions, all you simple folk
You will fight them on the beaches in your underclothes
You will thank the good lord for raising the union jack
You'll watch the ships sail out of harbour
and the bodies come floating back

If the real Jesus Christ were to stand up today
He'd be gunned down cold by the C.I.A.
Oh, the lights that now burn brightest behind stained glass
Will cast the darkest shadows upon the human heart
But God didn't build himself that throne
God doesn't live in Israel or Rome
God doesn’t belong to the yankee dollar
God doesn't plant the bombs for Hezbollah
God doesn't even go to church
And God won't send us down to Allah to burn
No, God will remind us what we already know
That the human race is about to reap what it's sown

The world is on its elbows and knees
It's forgotten the message and worships the creeds
Armageddon days are here again

(The The, 1989)