Brexit negotiations

[Mr D]

Both parties went crazy with the giveaways in the run up to the election though.

Conservative pledges - 50k more nurses, 20k more police, £14 billion of investment for education/retraining services, end of austerity measures, £6 billion for renewable energy, £2 billion for road upgrades, continued investment for HS2 and 40 new hospitals They also promised not to increase taxes for most people, so they'd have to borrow more to achieve all of the above unless they're planning on this taking 10 years or more to complete.

Remember that they've already cut 26k police and they're only planning to train 30k nurses, the rest will be made up by extending the contracts/employment of current staff. There also won't be 40 brand new hospitals, as they're planning to refurbish many of the existing ones.

Neither party can really say they spend less than the other, so Labour are equally rubbish with the public purse: https://fullfact.org/economy/labour-and-conservative-records-national-debt/

Labour blew lots of cash and used PFI to achieve their goals over a decade ago but the banking crisis really broke the camels back and plunged their spending in to the hole we're now in. The Conservatives said that cuts and austerity would pull us back in to line but it's actually got worse because the country has run out of cash to throw at itself.

When the government say 'invest in' they mean throw money at it and hope it looks good. When we business people say 'invest in' we mean it will make us our money back and a tidy profit to boot.

Wow, cut 26k police. And was hardly noticeable. How much excess staffing did the police build up over the years that was surplus to requirements?
Will 20,000 new (and therefore cheap) staff solve the problems? I rather doubt it.
They'll still be doing security, escort, crowd control etc as they have for many years.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

UK passport holders who are working against the interests of the UK.

Until a few weeks my passport is also a EU one.

 

[Clinton]

The EU doesn't issue passports, it can't, it is not a country. It is a souped up trade club that's getting far ahead of itself.

Because of this, a symbolic gesture, a meaningless nonsense, some EU supporters are confused enough to believe they are citizens of the EU (a country that doesn't exist).

It wasn't by chance that the EU logo ended up on passports. I daresay this kind of confusion was expected. It may even have been done to engender loyalty to the EU over and above loyalty to the holder's sovereign state.

Yes, you lose freedom of movement. But if you're trying to use the EU logo on your passport as justification for your loyalties lying with the EU in any EU vs UK matter, you're on a sticky wicket.

 

[thetiger2015]

Wow, cut 26k police. And was hardly noticeable. How much excess staffing did the police build up over the years that was surplus to requirements?
Will 20,000 new (and therefore cheap) staff solve the problems? I rather doubt it.
They'll still be doing security, escort, crowd control etc as they have for many years.

Hardly noticeable? What world have you been living in the last ten years?

Violent crime has increased by up to 19% in the last few years and overall crime is up 7% over the last few years.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-46984559

Crime was worse in the 90s...when the last Conservative government was in power.

The police are stretched to the limit. Motorway police now have to respond to domestic incidents as there’s not enough cover. Crowd control? Well yes, a police officers job now covers ALL aspects of policing from domestic abuse to emergency response to robbery and vehicle theft.

Police are now reliant on community support officers to assist them, as there’s very limited front line policing in most areas.

Don’t say there hasn’t been a noticeable difference because I can produce oodles of reports and research that suggests otherwise.

If you’re saying the money is being spent on managers instead then yes, just like the NHS, funding has been shifted from frontline to Management level and that’s yet another reason why the budgets are being spent in areas that they shouldn’t be.

Also, when I say NHS and police money is being spent on Managers, I don’t just mean their salaries! I mean, an NHS manager may be responsible for a team that look in to changing signs and installing new lights in the car park, not front line! You’ll get a Manager, assistant manager, executive and admin assistant involved who spend weeks discussing the colour of some new doors and then outsource to a contractor - one door costs thousands instead of a few hundred and it takes weeks for anything to get done because there are committees and sub committees with people being paid £200 a day to decide on the colour of some fabric. That’s where the money has gone...well...unless you start looking at outsourcing for drugs and services via private companies and that’s a whole other world of nonsense.

 

[MBE2017]

Pointless arguing guys, the UK is leaving the EU, finally, the Conservatives are in power, mainly because Labour as usual lost the election rather than the Conservatives winning it.

I would suggest watching Neil Kinnocks speech regarding Militant for Labours reasons for losing, some things never change.

 

[paulears]

The trouble with the NHS is not political and not just a funding problem - it's simply that it's a huge organisation that is managed like a very small one. I don't know a single NHS worker who doesn't very simple solutions to problems, but cannot get the incredible tiers of management to do anything about it. Those firms that encourage the shop floor workers to give suggestions direct to the MD - simple solutions, easy to fix and it works. Once you involve supervisors, managers, department managers, area managers, senior area managers, then the various committees, the savings have been eaten up by the system.

The NHS, no matter if Government managed or privately managed is a nightmare. I suspect the people as a whole are unanimous in thinking that when it works, the NHS is brilliant.

We have got so used to complaining when Councils privatise their services, but we're all in business. Faced with two options - 1. employ and service a large workforce, manage them and monitor them to do the local services, or 2. find private firms willing to do this, and not get the council involved in day to day operations.

Which would we choose? The one that cost us the least and was always able to be a bargaining tool - do this or next year's contract might be placed elsewhere.

Clearly in the NHS, the real problem is that the management are unable to do their job because the infrastructure prevents it, being behind in time, and scope.

Ward Managers, or 'Matrons' - how do local authorities not notice they have less wards than staff? Very easily when management have never set foot in the place.

Conservative or Labour, privatised or nationalised - it doesn't matter if they're just badly run. Stability is needed to get it even started on a fix.

I think all the politicians really know the problems, but cannot admit that either solution works.

 

[Mr D]

Hardly noticeable? What world have you been living in the last ten years?

Violent crime has increased by up to 19% in the last few years and overall crime is up 7% over the last few years.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-46984559

Crime was worse in the 90s...when the last Conservative government was in power.

The police are stretched to the limit. Motorway police now have to respond to domestic incidents as there’s not enough cover. Crowd control? Well yes, a police officers job now covers ALL aspects of policing from domestic abuse to emergency response to robbery and vehicle theft.

Police are now reliant on community support officers to assist them, as there’s very limited front line policing in most areas.

Don’t say there hasn’t been a noticeable difference because I can produce oodles of reports and research that suggests otherwise.

If you’re saying the money is being spent on managers instead then yes, just like the NHS, funding has been shifted from frontline to Management level and that’s yet another reason why the budgets are being spent in areas that they shouldn’t be.

Also, when I say NHS and police money is being spent on Managers, I don’t just mean their salaries! I mean, an NHS manager may be responsible for a team that look in to changing signs and installing new lights in the car park, not front line! You’ll get a Manager, assistant manager, executive and admin assistant involved who spend weeks discussing the colour of some new doors and then outsource to a contractor - one door costs thousands instead of a few hundred and it takes weeks for anything to get done because there are committees and sub committees with people being paid £200 a day to decide on the colour of some fabric. That’s where the money has gone...well...unless you start looking at outsourcing for drugs and services via private companies and that’s a whole other world of nonsense.

You'd expect a massive percentage increase in crimes if the police was cut so much. But there hasn't been a massive increase - question is why?

Police stretched to the limit?
Still doing that escorting, security, and crowd control even with reduced manpower.
Quite why a policeman is needed for stuff that elsewhere is done by non police is open to question. Must be nice to have the manpower to simply waste staff time like that.

Meanwhile outside the police such stuff is done by other companies. Ever been to a music weekend? Security provided by uniformed police? No, its by an external company providing security.

Police relying on community support officers? They were when labour were in power too.

Funding spent on management rather than staff? Yes its common in large organisations - and of course when funding problems happen its not the people assigning the spending who get cut so much!

Am quite familiar with NHS meetings and non-core discussions. Plus lack of support or too much support that isn't needed being chucked at a problem.

 

[Mr D]

The trouble with the NHS is not political and not just a funding problem - it's simply that it's a huge organisation that is managed like a very small one. I don't know a single NHS worker who doesn't very simple solutions to problems, but cannot get the incredible tiers of management to do anything about it. Those firms that encourage the shop floor workers to give suggestions direct to the MD - simple solutions, easy to fix and it works. Once you involve supervisors, managers, department managers, area managers, senior area managers, then the various committees, the savings have been eaten up by the system.

The NHS, no matter if Government managed or privately managed is a nightmare. I suspect the people as a whole are unanimous in thinking that when it works, the NHS is brilliant.

We have got so used to complaining when Councils privatise their services, but we're all in business. Faced with two options - 1. employ and service a large workforce, manage them and monitor them to do the local services, or 2. find private firms willing to do this, and not get the council involved in day to day operations.

Which would we choose? The one that cost us the least and was always able to be a bargaining tool - do this or next year's contract might be placed elsewhere.

Clearly in the NHS, the real problem is that the management are unable to do their job because the infrastructure prevents it, being behind in time, and scope.

Ward Managers, or 'Matrons' - how do local authorities not notice they have less wards than staff? Very easily when management have never set foot in the place.

Conservative or Labour, privatised or nationalised - it doesn't matter if they're just badly run. Stability is needed to get it even started on a fix.

I think all the politicians really know the problems, but cannot admit that either solution works.

Say what you want about privatised services, they appear to go on strike a lot less. With the exception of previously public services - cough royal mail cough.

 

[RobinBHM]

We have got so used to complaining when Councils privatise their services, but we're all in business

Quite a few councils are bringing privatised services back in house.....better service for lower cost.

Also true with train operators......which are mostly foreign owned.

 

[RobinBHM]

Labour best be ready to pounce then, because the public will be in uproar if they don't get Brexit - unless we get Brexit(lite) and it's painted to look good.

Unfortunately for Labour, I think they're going to just do the same thing they've done for the last few years and stay on the far left, thus alienating the middle and leaving people to float over to Conservatives again.

The problem with brexit is the same its always been: a very complex problem was sold as emotive soundbites which wont come true. Sunlit uplands, cake and eat it etc etc.
Johnson is in for a hard time.

Labour wont change, not yet: the members have the power and they are hard left activists, I cant see the moderates will regain control.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Labour wont change, not yet: the members have the power and they are hard left activists, I cant see the moderates will regain control.

Will be interesting to see how it goes. If they do go for continuity Corbyn then they will remain unelectable. I'm sure the tories will love that as it means two terms at least.

But it will mean that the centre left ground is vacant so we could see the emergence of something new there.

Noteworthy that the only Labour leader to win a majority in the last 50 years was Tony Blair.

 

[Mr D]

Will be interesting to see how it goes. If they do go for continuity Corbyn then they will remain unelectable. I'm sure the tories will love that as it means two terms at least.

But it will mean that the centre left ground is vacant so we could see the emergence of something new there.

Noteworthy that the only Labour leader to win a majority in the last 50 years was Tony Blair.

Twice now Labour have come up with policies that were somewhat extreme, twice now they have been massively defeated.
That won't tell them anything though.

Could be they spend a generation (a real one, not a SNP one) out of government until all those remembering the Labour governments die off.

 

[Clinton]

Labour should be banned. The whole idea is morally and financially corrupt.

The Tories are rightly criticised for getting large donations from donors who expect to influence party policy.

That's wrong. And if that's wrong it's also wrong to have a party influenced by one section of society, a party that looks to protect the interests of that section over others. And they've got Len McCluskey there to ensure that they do.

A bias towards workers - people in trade unions - results in policies that favour those voters' interests against those of small businesses, pensioners, professionals, wealth creators, others.

It's bias that has been bought. Corrupt.

But there's good news today. Lily Allen has closed her Twitter account because Labour lost

 

[Mr D]

Labour should be banned. The whole idea is morally and financially corrupt.

The Tories are rightly criticised for getting large donations from donors who expect to influence party policy.

That's wrong. And if that's wrong it's also wrong to have a party influenced by one section of society, a party that looks to protect the interests of that section over others. And they've got Len McCluskey there to ensure that they do.

A bias towards workers - people in trade unions - results in policies that favour those voters' interests against those of small businesses, pensioners, professionals, wealth creators, others.

It's bias that has been bought. Corrupt.

But there's good news today. Lily Allen has closed her Twitter account because Labour lost

By not having state support of political parties then people who do support political parties expect to have a say in some matters.
No reason for a party to listen to non members regarding what policies should be made though of course need to test how the policies are viewed by non members.
But those paying annual fees to a party may well want their voice heard by the party. Those donating large sums of course expect more influence / better hearing for their issues.

Its a problem all the parties have. Needing money they seek out those able to lend or give large sums. And there is a price for that money, one way or another.

State funding for parties and no other funding allowed? With basic funding for each party plus extra based on number of votes in a local or general elections.
Solve the problem. Create new problems too!

 

[Clinton]

Today's News:

Boris Johnson will (write) into law that the UK will leave the EU in 2020 and will not extend the transition period.

Excellent!

I tend to link to the Guardian because there are people here so brainwashed that they consider anything posted in the Telegraph or elsewhere as not true!

Anyway, this should make the EU sit up and take notice. They aren't dealing with appeaser May any more!

The EU export to us a lot more than they import. Germany's economy is in a slump. And we've got a PM with balls. The conditions are right for them to finally play sensible in these trade negotiations unlike what happened with the Theresa May negotiations

 

[KM-Tiger]

Anyway, this should make the EU sit up and take notice. They aren't dealing with appeaser May any more!

Yes, this is good news.

It will take a short while for the chorus of "it can't be done", both from the EU and remainers, to die down.

But it's vital that we start negotiations on the front foot and this will help in that respect.

 

[MBE2017]

So latest figures today.....

Lowest unemployment figures since 1975
Employment at an ALL time high
Regular pay up 3.5%
Record low female economic activity

Despite Brexit.

 

[Mr D]

So latest figures today.....

Lowest unemployment figures since 1975
Employment at an ALL time high
Regular pay up 3.5%
Record low female economic activity

Despite Brexit.

Record low female economic activity? What is the government doing wrong?

 

[RobinBHM]

they consider anything posted in the Telegraph or elsewhere as not true

The Telegraph is full of lies.

Apart from Peter Foster.

 

[RobinBHM]

Yes, this is good news.

It will take a short while for the chorus of "it can't be done", both from the EU and remainers, to die down.

But it's vital that we start negotiations on the front foot and this will help in that respect.

A quick deal can be done, for sure.
How rubbish do you want it to be.

3 1/2 years of negotiations and the UK have capitulated at every stage.

Johnsons deal......well it wasnt Johnsons deal, he had to cross a major red line and agree to a deal the EU offered May.

I can tell whats going to happen, 6 months of chest beating Tory propaganda, telling the UK audience how tough we are being in negotiations, whilst simultaneously getting nowhere and giving ground at each stage.

Putting the deadline in law means nothing, a one liner can be added to extend.

Dont believe me?
No problem, we shall find out soon enough.

 

[Clodbuster]

This thread seems to have died at last.

 

[The Byre]

Brexit hasn't happened yet! The negotiations will last another year. Johnson, having lied his way into No.10, will give you everything he promised you - except Brexit!

 

[Clinton]

@The Byre, would you care to put £100, or maybe a tad more, on Brexit not happening within the next 12 months?

Just to make it interesting, like.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

It's hard to call it a lie when the rest of Parliament went against him and stopped him from getting his plans through, nobody can fore see the future. If he had stated he would try, then he would have been treated the same as May,

ps have you moved back to your beloved Germany yet?

 

[The Byre]

@The Byre, would you care to put £100, or maybe a tad more, on Brexit not happening within the next 12 months?

Just to make it interesting, like.

No, because then we'd be arguing for a year and a day what is and is not a 'real' Brexit! (That and I never gamble!)

ps have you moved back to your beloved Germany yet?

No - I can't stand the place! Things work better there, but it is too overcrowded, it is hopelessly polluted and I prefer life where I am! It's nearly as bad as S.E.Englandshire!

 

[RobinBHM]

It's hard to call it a lie when the rest of Parliament went against him and stopped him from getting his plans through, nobody can fore see the future. If he had stated he would try, then he would have been treated the same as May,

ps have you moved back to your beloved Germany yet?

Johnson never had any plans.

He cant deliver the brexit sold by the leave campaign, becsuse it doesnt exist.
Failure is guaranteed, it just wont seem like bedause there is an abject liar at the helm hell bent on covering the lies for 5 years.

 

[Clodbuster]

S***- I spoke too soon

 

[KM-Tiger]

He cant deliver the brexit sold by the leave campaign, becsuse it doesnt exist.
Failure is guaranteed, it just wont seem like bedause there is an abject liar at the helm hell bent on covering the lies for 5 years.

Are we still expecting a plague of locusts?

 

[Mr D]

Brexit hasn't happened yet! The negotiations will last another year. Johnson, having lied his way into No.10, will give you everything he promised you - except Brexit!

So the latest agreement has been entered to parliament and voted on.
But you still insist Brexit won't happen.

What do you know about those MPs that the public do not?

 

[The Byre]

Are we still expecting a plague of locusts?

And there was me, thinking that Brexit would mean Death of the first-born!

But you still insist Brexit won't happen.

Oh, it'll happen! But in name only.

What do you know about those MPs that the public do not?

I know some of them personally and with a few exceptions, they are idiots. As soon ass you drill down to hard facts and see if they really know what they are spouting off about, as soon as you ask relevant questions about their assertions, they look at you open-mouthed like a gaffed salmon.

Nearly all are really more like Dianne Abbot - the difference is that Dianne Abbot is overtly stupid. Most MPs are covertly stupid.

 

[Mr D]

I know some of them personally and with a few exceptions, they are idiots. As soon ass you drill down to hard facts and see if they really know what they are spouting off about, as soon as you ask relevant questions about their assertions, they look at you open-mouthed like a gaffed salmon.

Nearly all are really more like Dianne Abbot - the difference is that Dianne Abbot is overtly stupid. Most MPs are covertly stupid.

Idiots so stupid they successfully land a job paying well above average wage, get a ton of expenses, get subsidised meals and bar, and a payment when they leave the job.
Plus considerable promotion prospects with massive pay rises.

Perhaps they are not so stupid or such idiots after all.

 

[RobinBHM]

I know some of them personally and with a few exceptions, they are idiots. As soon ass you drill down to hard facts and see if they really know what they are spouting off about, as soon as you ask relevant questions about their assertions, they look at you open-mouthed like a gaffed salmon

It is a sales job, end of, technical knowledge not required, just an ability to lie and sound convincing.
Ive heard it said Corbyn isnt too bright......
ERG members like Mark Francois and Andrew Bridgen dont strike as being the sharpest tools in the box.

Although I watched some of select committee meeting for exiting the EU -some of those people really knew their stuff.

 

[RobinBHM]

Are we still expecting a plague of locusts?

Can you do better than 'appeal to extremes'.

Brexit hasnt begun yet.

On the 1st Feb the EU, the worlds biggest trade bloc will become our competitor.
We shall see a slow decline as the UK loses its position in the world.
I expect the city will do well.
Northern consituencies wont.
Hey ho.

 

[NickGrogan]

EU, the worlds biggest trade bloc

How many of the top 100 companies globally are European?
Of those, how many are not British, under 75 years old or privatised state providers?

The EU hasn't produced a global

search engine
operating system
social media website
messaging app
office productivity software
etc, etc.

The movie industry outside of the UK is fairly dead as is music.

What world-leading companies or sectors has this great trading block produced in the last 30 years?

Northern consituencies wont.

Why?

 

[KM-Tiger]

The EU hasn't produced a global

search engine
operating system
social media website
messaging app
office productivity software
etc, etc.

In general you are right, but arguably Linux (huge world presence) is Finnish. Though it also relies heavily on the GNU Project which is American.

 

[Mr D]

The movie industry outside of the UK is fairly dead as is music.

What world-leading companies or sectors has this great trading block produced in the last 30 years?



Why?

A very UK centric view. Perhaps missing the rest of the world?
Including the rest of the EU.

 

[NickGrogan]

In general you are right, but arguably Linux (huge world presence) is Finnish. Though it also relies heavily on the GNU Project which is American.

You're right, I'd forgotten Linux, although as you say it is heavily reliant on GNU. It was also released before Finland joined the EU.

 

[NickGrogan]

The movie industry outside of the UK is fairly dead as is music.

UK Movie industry ~£10BN
French ~ £1BN

 

[Mr D]

EU music industry.
https://www.statista.com/topics/3903/music-industry-in-europe/

We are a chunk of that. Far from majority.

 

[The Byre]

The movie industry outside of the UK is fairly dead as is music.

If ain't the daftest and most misinformed statement of the age!

The German music industry is roughly (inc. live music) double the size of the UK music industry.

At the budget end of the film industry, things are fairly national, but the large 'blockbuster' movie of today is nearly always international. Star Wars - filmed in the UK and elsewhere, Bladerunner 2049 - filmed in Hungary with Canadian and UK/US crew. War of the Planet of the Apes - filmed in Canada with New Zealand CGI. I can't think of a single major movie that was not international to some extent.

The UK film production scene is largish but is light-years away from the size and scope of China, India and the US and still somewhat smaller (by numbers of people employed) than S.Korea, Japan, France and Nigeria.