Brexit negotiations

[STDFR33]

I booked a holiday to Egypt last week and asked about Brexit and holidays and was told 'nothing will change post Brexit because people will still want holidays and people will still want tourists'.

 

[alan1302]

I just looked up and Nissan do have a plant in Spain, so if they wanted to build it in the EU they could.

But it's not going there, it's staying in Japan. Which suggests there is a bigger picture with this.

Just a personal anecdote:

I could buy a new car this year. I have the money, existing car is 12 years old.

But I haven't a clue what to buy. Diesel, petrol, hybrid, electric?

Nissan and Renault share a lot so could make the X-Trail in a Renault factory within the Eu as well if they wanted to. Think it's more that they don't expect lots of sales for the car so not worth setting up a new production line in Sunderland to make it. They would rather leave it in Japan for now and export them to the EU where they have a new trade deal which keeps things better for them than it was.

As for your car I'd say it comes down to mileage - if you live in the city and the car never leaves then electric would probably work out well... most people would want petrol unless they are doing more than 20/25,000 miles a year to make the diesel the better choice.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...o-nissan-reveals-brexit-promise-to-carmarkers

 

[Cobby]

If you read it furter you find it does impact some lower paid people which is the main area where a lot of immigrants come to work
Obviously its not in all area's or workplaces, from what i hear the East has a big problem especially between kings Lynn and Boston
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...onlevelswhatdoyouknowaboutyourarea/2017-08-24

Keep up, I already clarified this point.

Free movement of EU citizens across member states isn't a policy it's a benefit of our membership and the evidence shows it has only a very small impact on unskilled labour and the lowest paid, and even then it's in the short term and dependent upon sector and demographic. Furthermore those are also people putting more value into the public purse than they're taking out (esp. compared to UK citizens), so are a net gain to services like the NHS which is a huge benefit to the poorest and most vulnerable in our society.

 

[Cobby]

Lol that was always going to be the case, only the remoaniacs wanting to cause panic as part of their silly campaign of fear had hoped this would be an issue.

Okay, I have to ask, because you're really stretching yourself to slot in the childish insults:

A "remoaniac" ( ) who reads the facts around a topic -for example the aviation arrangements - and looks for well sourced information and considered summaries from well-reputed individuals and experts in the relevant field, almost all of whom agree on a broad consensus such as, "There are very likely to be problems and these could range from severe delays and extra costs, to flights being grounded until legal arrangements are made."

Your response to this person, instead of engaging reasonably with the facts at hand, is to hand-wave away their concerns, re-frame their point using hysteria, "oh you're saying planes are just going to fall out of the sky!?" and then to just... call them names?

Do you genuinely think you are making a good argument when you do this? Honestly?

 

[Deleted member 59730]

and banking arrangements will remain in place for the foreseeable,

Unless you have a SAGA credit card when you will have to find another one.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Unless you have a SAGA credit card when you will have to find another one.

I don't have a SAGA card, but could you expand on that?

 

[Jeff FV]

S

I booked a holiday to Egypt last week and asked about Brexit and holidays and was told 'nothing will change post Brexit because people will still want holidays and people will still want tourists'.

So will my E111 still be valid when I go on holiday in Europe (not Egypt) when my family & I go on holiday in July?

I very much doubt it. I do expect that, as a consequence, my travel insurance will go up.

In the grand scheme of things, not a huge and insurmountable cost, but a cost nonetheless.

Should I wish to hire a car whilst on holiday (in Europe) will my U.K. driving licence still be valid? I’m not sure, I don’t think it will be.

Again, not a huge cost, but just making life that little bit more difficult.

And for what? Personally I can see no benefits for leaving. I admit, I am middle class, middle age, middle income and educated, so it may be that my demographic has not suffered from being part of the EU, but I really do struggle to see any benefits of leaving. Would be delighted if someone could show me otherwise, as it would mean I could stop worrying about Brexit and get on with my life.

At the moment, the best we are currently being offered is that bad things won’t happen. If we stay in, bad things won’t happen either, but what are the good things about leaving. I’m listening- please someone sell “leaving” to me.

 

[thetiger2015]

At the moment, the best we are currently being offered is that bad things won’t happen. If we stay in, bad things won’t happen either, but what are the good things about leaving. I’m listening- please someone sell “leaving” to me.

Apparently, we get all of the following:

• £13.1 bn that would have been spent on EU membership
• Less EU regulatory burdens for small businesses that don't trade in the EU
• Without the above regulations, we can apparently trade with anyone and lower standards where required to increase international sales
• Immigration - apparently, there will be stronger borders and more checks, with reduced demand from the EU for us to comply with increasing immigration numbers.
• The reduction in the above will lead to more jobs for British people...apparently
• Increased security = reduced change of terrorism

Not sure if they've factored in a smaller economy, with less EU and international trade. Businesses will be limited by the size of the UK, instead of the size of the EU. So, instead of easily being able to sell products to hundreds of millions, we'll have less than...30 million?

Of course, the Brexit camp would say but...but..but...we can sell to everyone else, except Europe! Conveniently forgetting that nobody else wants us. Norway have said noway, the Commonwealth have told us to get lost and the US are happy to deal with us...on their terms!

 

[Mr D]

Of course, the Brexit camp would say but...but..but...we can sell to everyone else, except Europe! Conveniently forgetting that nobody else wants us. Norway have said noway, the Commonwealth have told us to get lost and the US are happy to deal with us...on their terms!

The other nations may well deal with us... on their terms.
Now if say India decides to agree to trade terms and by the way add in we take 5 million immigrants a year what will our government do?
Times that by several dozen countries....

 

[STDFR33]

S


So will my E111 still be valid when I go on holiday in Europe (not Egypt) when my family & I go on holiday in July?

I very much doubt it. I do expect that, as a consequence, my travel insurance will go up.

In the grand scheme of things, not a huge and insurmountable cost, but a cost nonetheless.

Should I wish to hire a car whilst on holiday (in Europe) will my U.K. driving licence still be valid? I’m not sure, I don’t think it will be.

Again, not a huge cost, but just making life that little bit more difficult.

And for what? Personally I can see no benefits for leaving. I admit, I am middle class, middle age, middle income and educated, so it may be that my demographic has not suffered from being part of the EU, but I really do struggle to see any benefits of leaving. Would be delighted if someone could show me otherwise, as it would mean I could stop worrying about Brexit and get on with my life.

At the moment, the best we are currently being offered is that bad things won’t happen. If we stay in, bad things won’t happen either, but what are the good things about leaving. I’m listening- please someone sell “leaving” to me.

E111 will be valid until at least December 2020, I believe.

To drive abroad, you’ll probably need a permit. It’s cost £5/£6.

My travel insurance for two weeks in Egypt is very comprehensive and cost just £14.17. I’ve just amended the quote to travel to Spain pre and post Brexit and it is the same price.

So the only additional cost you may have is the driving permit. Personally, I drink far too much when I’m on holiday to be in control of a vehicle.

 

[dan19900]

S


So will my E111 still be valid when I go on holiday in Europe (not Egypt) when my family & I go on holiday in July?

I very much doubt it. I do expect that, as a consequence, my travel insurance will go up.

In the grand scheme of things, not a huge and insurmountable cost, but a cost nonetheless.

Should I wish to hire a car whilst on holiday (in Europe) will my U.K. driving licence still be valid? I’m not sure, I don’t think it will be.

Again, not a huge cost, but just making life that little bit more difficult.

I've been to 3 countries outside the EU so far this year. My driving license was valid in all of them, travel insurance free with my credit card and I got a 30 day visa waiver in all of them. Wasn't a huge cost or a little bit more difficult for me.

 

[simon field]

I'm going back to the beginning of this thread as I think I may have missed a couple of posts.

 

[Jeff FV]

So other than @thetiger2015 s post which was, I think tongue in cheek (the £13billion saved will be dwarfed by the shrinking economy, regulation is not a bad thing - food, work, h&s standards etc, I don’t see immigration as a bad thing) ...

... we are still just left with people saying bad things aren’t going to happen, I.e, my insurance, driving permit etc, isn’t going to cost more/ much more, which may be the case. But what are the benefits?

Not “this won’t change, that will be Ok, we’ll still have food etc.” What will be tangibly better for me, or, being altruistic, other sectors in society?

To coin a phrase, sell me the sizzle, ‘cos after two years I still can’t smell it or see the sunlit highlands

 

[Awinner2]

I'm going back to the beginning of this thread as I think I may have missed a couple of posts.

That's OK if you have a spare hour or three. Now in the real world I am looking for winning nag for this years Grand National!

 

[KM-Tiger]

To coin a phrase, sell me the sizzle, ‘cos after two years I still can’t smell it or see the sunlit highlands

The sunny uplands are definitely there, though it's unclear as to how and when we will reach them. And almost certain to be choppy waters at first.

The prize is the same as ever. To become, once again, a self-governing nation, where voters do have real power to change things.

Little did we realise when told "The govt will implement your decision", quite what a pig's ear the govt would make of that. Clearly it's going to go to the wire, and unclear whether we will achieve Brexit or end up with some sort of fudge.

There is also a question in my mind as to whether, after 40 odd years of being governed in many respects by others, our MPs, govt, and civil service are up to the task that is now in front of them?

 

[Deleted member 59730]

E111 will be valid until at least December 2020, I believe.

Belief is a wonderful thing. David Davies, who ought to know, said he thought it wouldn't.

To drive abroad, you’ll probably need a permit. It’s cost £5/£6.

As I pointed out earlier there is only 1 PO in Cornwall doing IDLs. Much more than £5 in petrol and parking for most of us.

My travel insurance for two weeks in Egypt is very comprehensive and cost just £14.17. I’ve just amended the quote to travel to Spain pre and post Brexit and it is the same price.

It depends if you have medical conditions. My travel insurance for my last trip to Mexico was £3,600. A parlimentary committee quoted £8,000 for pensioners wintering in Spain.

So the only additional cost you may have is the driving permit. Personally, I drink far too much when I’m on holiday to be in control of a vehicle.

And the extra costs of a falling pound!

 

[STDFR33]

E111 - I guess we will both have to agree that nothing is set in stone then!

IDP - the need for them now is very little. When demand increases, so will PO's offering this service.

Travel insurance - I also have a reportable medical condition and as I say, the premium for me is unchanged pre or post Brexit to an EU destination.

As for the pound, currencies fluctuate. They always have and they always will. It will probably take a hit post Brexit as the markets react to it, but it'll recover.

 

[Mr D]

The sunny uplands are definitely there, though it's unclear as to how and when we will reach them. And almost certain to be choppy waters at first.

The prize is the same as ever. To become, once again, a self-governing nation, where voters do have real power to change things.

Little did we realise when told "The govt will implement your decision", quite what a pig's ear the govt would make of that. Clearly it's going to go to the wire, and unclear whether we will achieve Brexit or end up with some sort of fudge.

There is also a question in my mind as to whether, after 40 odd years of being governed in many respects by others, our MPs, govt, and civil service are up to the task that is now in front of them?

What we will be able to do as voters is elect MPs. As we have done for some years now.
You realise that its the MPs elected by the voters currently who are making such a pig's ear of things? But you can be satisfied after Brexit that you have the same power to elect your local MP as you did while we were in the EU.
That's where your voting power stops. No more will you elect MEPs. No longer will our PM at whatever time become one of the leaders of the EU.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Travel insurance - I also have a reportable medical condition and as I say, the premium for me is unchanged pre or post Brexit to an EU destination.

Surely with the EU Health Card the insurance is zero. If you have a charge without it then there is a difference.

 

[STDFR33]

Surely with the EU Health Card the insurance is zero. If you have a charge without it then there is a difference.

Insurance doesn't just cover health. It covers cancellation, lost baggage etc. Most come with up to £10m medical regardless of the destination. I'm guessing that's why the cost remains unchanged.

 

[Newchodge]

There is no E11, hasn't been for many years. The EHIC is the current European healthcare option. Its website states

"If the UK leaves the EU without a deal on 29 March 2019, your access to healthcare when visiting an EU country is likely to change. If you are planning to visit on or after 29 March, you should continue to buy travel insurance so you can get the healthcare treatment you need, just as you would if visiting a non-EU country.

If you are using an EHIC issued by the UK, this will still be valid until 29 March 2019.""

 

[Jeff FV]

The sunny uplands are definitely there, though it's unclear as to how and when we will reach them. And almost certain to be choppy waters at first.

The prize is the same as ever. To become, once again, a self-governing nation, where voters do have real power to change things.

Thank you for replying to my question, I do genuinely appreciate it.

However, I don’t recognise the same sunlit uplands that you do. Perhaps it’s because I was only a boy when we “entered Europe” so I’ve not known anything different, but I don’t think that there will be any tangible difference to me in this regard. It will still be the same bunch of politicians running the country from Westminster, I won’t have any more or less ability to vote them in or out, and I can’t think of any significant policies that would be different were we not in the EU. Again, happy to be educated on this.

So it still seems to me that the best case scenario is that things won’t change too much and the negative impact of leaving won’t be too great for no tangible benefit for me, my family, or any sector of society, other than, perhaps, politicians who may have a little more say in how we do things?

 

[KM-Tiger]

and I can’t think of any significant policies that would be different were we not in the EU.

The key things there would be trade policy and tax policy.

ATM that is dictated by the EU. Out of the EU we can make our own. Handled right our economy could benefit from that enormously.

On tax we would have the freedom to make VAT changes, and we would not be in the EU's scheme to harmonise corporation tax.

 

[Mr D]

The key things there would be trade policy and tax policy.

ATM that is dictated by the EU. Out of the EU we can make our own. Handled right our economy could benefit from that enormously.

On tax we would have the freedom to make VAT changes, and we would not be in the EU's scheme to harmonise corporation tax.

Freedom to make VAT changes? Great.
Do we put them up, giving government more income but costing the population more? Or do we drop them, giving government less income but making a small difference to people?

Or leave the VAT as it is in which case its not a reason for doing anything?

Trade policy - our government gets input into a trade deal, it doesn't get to decide trade deals. That's the two parties concerned. If USA decides it wants us to do xxx, xxx and xxx in return for a trade deal are we going to be able to refuse?
If EU wants us to put VAT rate or corporation tax at a rate in return for a trade deal are we going to be able to refuse?


So far I've heard we have come up with one trade deal in one area of the economy with one country.
Insurance and Switzerland. And the deal is the same as what we have now.
Wow, if that's what we are aiming for then what is the point in being able to negotiate our own deals?

 

[KM-Tiger]

If USA decides it wants us to do xxx, xxx and xxx in return for a trade deal are we going to be able to refuse?

Yes.

ATM we trade successfully with the USA with no trade deal at all.

 

[Mr D]

Yes.

ATM we trade successfully with the USA with no trade deal at all.

So we could successfully trade with the entire rest of world including the EU without any trade deals.
Nice to know that we do not need trade deals. Just out of interest, what is the benefit to the EU of spending so much time and energy on doing trade deals with the dozens of countries they currently do have set up?

 

[Deleted member 59730]

So it still seems to me that the best case scenario is that things won’t change too much and the negative impact of leaving won’t be too great for no tangible benefit for me, my family, or any sector of society, other than, perhaps, politicians who may have a little more say in how we do things?

Jeff, you always write a lot of good sense.

I was doing business in Europe before we joined and I can tell you that with the single market things became immeasurably easier. Free movement and lack of customs are a real boon for small businesses doing business across the EU.

As for trading successfully with the USA. A major British orchestra had to turn down a proposed tour of the US because the paperwork was too onerous. To temporarily import stuff you need to fill in a carnet. Every single item has to be listed. I know of small companies who will not do trade shows in Switzerland because of the carnet problem.

But He-ho Tiger says it will all be OK.

 

[KM-Tiger]

But He-ho Tiger says it will all be OK.

Not sure it will be OK.

I have doubts as to whether our current leadership/govt/civilservice can cope with what needs to be done, let alone make a success of it.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Not sure it will be OK.

I have doubts as to whether our current leadership/govt/civilservice can cope with what needs to be done, let alone make a success of it.

Over many years I have made submissions, and been asked to write reports for, various legal and industry standards, both to the UK government and to the EU.

I have had doubts about our civil service and government for decades. My dealings with the EU on the other hand have always been well organised and have sometimes resulted in real positive change.

The UK is a major powerhouse in the creative industries. Protection of creative works depends on copyright. We now have protections through the EU which are extremely valuable to the UK economy. The UK governments efforts have been abysmal and downright silly. (Anyone remember Cameron's idea of giving our IP to Google?)

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Over many years I have made submissions, and been asked to write reports for, various legal and industry standards, both to the UK government and to the EU.

I have had doubts about our civil service and government for decades. My dealings with the EU on the other hand have always been well organised and have sometimes resulted in real positive change.

The UK is a major powerhouse in the creative industries. Protection of creative works depends on copyright. We now have protections through the EU which are extremely valuable to the UK economy. The UK governments efforts have been abysmal and downright silly. (Anyone remember Cameron's idea of giving our IP to Google?)

I would also agree with this to a certain extent . Dealing with people in Northern parts of Europe(Germany Sweden Belgium Holland ect) is always straight forward. They don't make mistakes and they mean what they say

 

[quikshop]

So it still seems to me that the best case scenario is that things won’t change too much and the negative impact of leaving won’t be too great for no tangible benefit for me, my family, or any sector of society, other than, perhaps, politicians who may have a little more say in how we do things?

I couldn't agree more with this. Brexit is a calculated act of self harm in order to cause change, and the hope is the self harm bit is moderate.

But I also believe in the fullness of time if the consequence of Brexit is to force a recognition within the EU zealotry that democracy is not an inconvenience but has to remain the beating heart of our liberal western freedoms, it is an act of self harm for the greater good.

 

[Newchodge]

I couldn't agree more with this. Brexit is a calculated act of self harm in order to cause change, and the hope is the self harm bit is moderate.

But I also believe in the fullness of time if the consequence of Brexit is to force a recognition within the EU zealotry that democracy is not an inconvenience but has to remain the beating heart of our liberal western freedoms, it is an act of self harm for the greater good.

And do you think that what we have seen in our parliament since the referendum result, with the government having to be taken to court to force them to allow parliament to do its job, being held in contempt of parliament, refusing to hold promised votes on issues of fundamental importance.... Do you really think that is democracy?

 

[Mr D]

And do you think that what we have seen in our parliament since the referendum result, with the government having to be taken to court to force them to allow parliament to do its job, being held in contempt of parliament, refusing to hold promised votes on issues of fundamental importance.... Do you really think that is democracy?

It is British democracy.

As is MPs voting in parliament for something the other side has said no way to.

 

[KM-Tiger]

Is Tusk a secret agent for Leave?

Is this better than Obama's 'back of the queue'?

 

[Newchodge]

Is Tusk a secret agent for Leave?

Is this better than Obama's 'back of the queue'?

That is not what he said. He said the place was for "those who promoted Brexit without even a sketch of a plan of how to carry it out safely" and what sane person could argue with him.

The fact that Brexit fanatics quote it out of context to try to prove there is something wrong with the EU shows both their lack of morality and their lack of understanding.

 

[The Byre]

250 pages of totally circular nonsense!

Whoopee!

 

[simon field]

^^^ That is funny as F***!! ^^^

 

[simon field]

The fact that he actually believes in a 'hell' says it all really!

 

[quikshop]

Is this better than Obama's 'back of the queue'?

To be fair to Obama he was reading from a script given to him by the British Government, albeit a willing participant in project fear.

Poor old Grand Master "the Tusk" has done what his acolytes have been doing for years, taking comments out of context to use against their opponents... remainers getting a taste of their own medicine and squealing about it?