Brexit negotiations
- Thread starter Scott-Copywriter
- Start date
I see your point and perhaps I am a blind optimist in believing there must be a 21st century solution as is already worked at Felixstowe. I would see the only checks being intelligence-led anti-smuggling operations. But that is likely to stop one lorry in a thousand, if that.
It will need some online paperwork from importers/exporters, but how hard can that be? If you want to sell stuff you do it.
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That's what currently happens?
With a massive amount of stuff arriving from the EU.
Now take away all current agreements and requirements regarding contents. Yes a driver can have paperwork - should his truck be checked over for stuff that shouldn't be there? Is he smuggling people in? Is he trying to shift undeclared cargo in with the declared stuff?
If the cargo doesn't get checked will the smuggling increase? If you want control of the borders then not taking control of the borders would rather defeat the object.
What happens if France stops its border control of the UK? Trusting the channel tunnel & ferries and drivers to police the UK border? Or needing to do some checks on the UK side of the water?
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D
Deleted member 59730
Yes, you are a blind optimist. A major problem with medicines is counterfeiting. If we are not checking then we are seriously putting people in danger. I can remember when imports from France and Spain took 5 days to clear customs.
Another major problem is stockpiling. That creates a surge in imports which leaves the importers with no idea what the actual demand is.
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But if we buy from the EU now and are happy with that, what would be different after leaving the EU?
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The delivery times.
Can you see the delivery of products from Italy, France, Germany etc being as quick as they are now?
I can order a music book from Germany now, Wednesday evening and have it delivered probably Saturday.
How quickly will items be delivered from Germany in 8 months time?
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?
Customs.
Unless our government decides to allow all cargo entering UK to have no checks more than they are now?
How will that go down in the media?
Do we want control of our borders as some have said they wanted? Or do we want open borders (this side) where anyone can ship things in without any more checks than exist currently while other side of the border has all the customs checks you'd expect of foreign imports?
Customs.
Unless our government decides to allow all cargo entering UK to have no checks more than they are now?
How will that go down in the media?
Do we want control of our borders as some have said they wanted? Or do we want open borders (this side) where anyone can ship things in without any more checks than exist currently while other side of the border has all the customs checks you'd expect of foreign imports?
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We don't eat enough horse in this country, but I'm looking forward to getting more horse meat (labelled as beef) when we just open our borders, don't bother checking the food items. Because why we would need to check that what it says on the tin is what's in the tin? We trusted them when they were our trading partners; when they have no restrictions, or checks, I'm sure they'll be even more honest - except we won't be able to take them to courts we opt out of, and will have only ourselves to blame.
Karl Limpert
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We don't eat enough horse in this country, but I'm looking forward to getting more horse meat (labelled as beef) when we just open our borders, don't bother checking the food items. Because why we would need to check that what it says on the tin is what's in the tin? We trusted them when they were our trading partners; when they have no restrictions, or checks, I'm sure they'll be even more honest - except we won't be able to take them to courts we opt out of, and will have only ourselves to blame.
Karl Limpert
And how many people complained about the horsemeat before they were told?
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I have not the slightest idea. And I for one had no reason to complain even after being told - didn't bother me.
But if we simply accept food imported, labelled as "not having nuts", or being "vegetarian" or "suitable for vegans" or being "halal meat" or whatever, and the gov't don't bother to check the imports do meet the declared standards, I would speculate that one or two people may object if they find the gov't has allowed the import of falsely-declared food products without making any effort to check these declarations.
Maybe everyone will just be happy we won't be paying the pension of UK judges that sat on the European Court of Justice in many years times (although granting them an early retirement), and won't care at all about food labels...
Karl Limpert
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Yes I imagine anyone allergic to nuts will be very very careful if they cannot trust the meal in front of them.
While the big sellers (supermarkets etc) will still sell the brands that they make money with, who will control the standards such brands have to meet?
I'm fine with EU labelling and standards. If I was to implement my food idea and some of the stuff is imported, whose standards cover? I say there are no nuts so are there no nuts? Is there extra protein from insects within the food? Is a 50kg sack just containing the ingredient or containing 100,000 insects too?
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You're asking questions, eluding the point that was made - that I expect there may be some upset if we just allow anything to imported, accept what it says without checking that is the case. Are all in the UK going to be accommodating to this if the gov't don't bother to check imports?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe EU labelling and standards are expected on food produced in the EU for export - why would it be?
Why would a farmer in Ireland or France or Germany or Austria have to ensure their food meets EU standards & labelling when they are exporting it out of the EU?
Karl Limpert
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This is a key point.
If we want to have a deal with the EU, to sell into the EU we will need to meet their standards (which we currently do (meet their standards) as they are also our own standards. On the whole, I'd say EU standards are pretty good/pretty acceptable - not surprising as we will have had a big hand in shaping them. )
If we want to have a trade deal with the US, we will have to accept their standards - and probably accept food into the UK that would not meat EU standards.
There is quite a divergence between the two. Unfortunately, in any deals between either the EU or the US we will be the junior (smaller) party and have to acquiesce to their demands. So instead of "taking back control" and being masters of our own destiny, we will be more likely beholden to the whims and demands of more "foreigners" than we are now.
Ah, the irony of Brexit.
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I did refer to those with nut allergy. They'd be a bit more than upset to find some nut in their food when not expected.
Could well be dead. Or merely minutes from death without anyone able to help them.
Let me make something simple for you.
Without any agreement with EU, what food standards will the UK have for imports from EU in 8 months?
You may have missed it about 5 weeks back, the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018.
The UK standards will initially be the same as they are now. In theory.
But unless you allow the produce to be checked somewhere how will you know what the product is like?
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Yes, the media have taken great joy with the idea of chlorinated chicken. Like people eating chicken here usually know what goes into getting the meat to their kitchen.
The US has gone its own way for over 200 years, the standards they have for stuff can be quite different than ours and methods can be different.
If an item is certified organic in the US and using a method that is not certified organic in the UK, how can it be blocked from being sold as organic if a trade deal is done to accept US produce?
By one legal requirement being met it is organic, by another legal requirement it isn't organic. Its the same item.
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Apologies Mr D, I was debating with KM-Tiger's point.
I agree with you - we need checks, which will cause delays. Or perhaps just deaths instead!
Karl Limpert
I agree with you - we need checks, which will cause delays. Or perhaps just deaths instead!
Karl Limpert
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I think you have not understood how standards work. It is up to the country that imports the goods to set the standards of the goods they import, or more precisely the goods that are sold in their country. That applies no matter where the goods come from, big country or small country. There are no senior or junior partners as far as standards go. Take the example of cars. American car manufacturers have to meet our standards if they want to export to the UK. If they want to impose their own standards then they will not have a market here.
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This is one of the points that I've found so odd from some Brexiteers: the EU are being tough in negotiations, not treating us as equals, and therefore we're right to leave.
Because somehow being part of a trading bloc that asserts its status is unreasonable, and it should be nice to everyone? We wouldn't want to assert our status to secure a good deal.
Boris, having resigned, has walked into a better-paid job, so just as he said will happen, he will be able to buy his brie & Bordeaux, but the rest of us are expected to fall back on English wine - based on one hot summer, that has decimated most of our farm produce.
Karl Limpert
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And if we want to ensure they are held to those standards, do we just accept the label? Or will we be checking them on arrival? If so, where, when, how, without causing any delays whatsoever?
Perhaps we'll have the same open-border standard for all imports, as expected by WTO rules, or have procedures in place to check all imports. Somehow without causing any delays?
(I'm so disappointed to learn my son has been convinced the tooth fairy is real! For some people on here...)
Karl Limpert
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On Terry Pratchett's Discworld the tooth fairy was a franchise operation. You needed a ladder (for the bedroom windows) and a pair of pliers (for when you couldn't make change).
Seriously from what I hear the UK customs people do stop some dangerous stuff entering the country. From China usually.
Can they stop contaminated EU eggs once we leave?
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At present standards are enforced by various bodies here, whether the goods come from abroad or are made here. At present if a bottle of whatever has a fake label and the contents do not comply with our standards it cannot legally be sold here. That will not change whether there is a hard Brexit, soft Brexit or no Brexit.
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That's reassuring.
But just to rest my mind further, how exactly will we know that a bottle of Pellegrino water meets our regulations after we leave the EU, unless we stop the truck to check it?
Or are we just going to trust the EU to enforce its own rules on its exporters, effectively subordinate to the EU & its courts? That's clearly not an option, so we'd have to check the imports, surely? Which would cause delays...
Karl Limpert
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A little patronising.
Of course it is up to us, as the importing country, to set our standards. However, as we will be the much smaller (junior) partner in a trade deal with the US they may (will) require us to lower our standards on our imports if we want to export to them
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We presently have to meet their standards if we export to the USA. Often those standards are different. Whether they are "lower" or "higher" that is a matter of opinion. For example if we want to export ice cream to the USA the product has to have a certain percentage of milk/cream in it for it legally can be sold in the USA as "ice cream". Most of the ice cream sold in the shops here does not meet that standard and if they are exported to the USA cannot be sold legally there labelled as "ice cream".
There is no compulsion in a trade deal to harmonise standards. It is useful and maybe beneficial in many cases to have harmonisation, but not absolutely necessary. We will not have to increase the milk/cream content of our ice cream sold in the UK to enable us to have a trade deal with the USA on ice cream any more than we will have to harmonise our emissions standards of all the cars driven in the UK to those driven in the USA to enable to have a trade deal with the USA with regard to cars.
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Imports will have to be checked, once standards in the UK start to diverge from those of the EU. That could be some years off though. The administration that is in place at the minute for third country imports (i.e. imports from the EU which originate outside the EU) will need to change, both here and in the 27 countries left in the EU who trade with the UK after Brexit. Getting agreement on this is probably the biggest challenge facing the Brexit negotiators at present.
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Not according to the medicines regulator https://www.pharmaceutical-journal....s-mhra-chief/20205240.article?firstPass=false
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Insulin is manufactured in the UK at one location and the amount produced supplies approximately 1,500 patients. Out of 415,000.
Enough insulin for 0.3% of the people that need it.
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Are you talking about that 96%-98% figure of free-flowing goods?
One of the biggest problems with explaining Brexit to Leavers is the "How hard can it be?" and "We'll manage with good old British pluck." faith-based attitudes. While this demographic exists politicians such as Gove, Johnson, Mogg, Jenkin, etc. will keep dishonestly pandering to it.
Alarmingly, these attitudes are still exhibited by the leading Brexiteers who, after campaigning for decades still haven't offered a single concrete solution to the obstacles Brexit puts in our way.
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D
Deleted member 59730
Transhipment. Under silly May's silly plan goods could be consigned to us through the EU from countries which produce the fakes. If there are no checks in the EU and no checks at the UK border we will have no idea what we are shipping in.
Anyone remember the scandal of M&S trying to import clothes with made in England labels. It was EU customs who impounded that lot but under the new plan they could just come in unless there is a delay for checking at our ports.
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D
Deleted member 59730
I had a trick question I put to some fellow travellers when in Costa Rica. What is different about eggs north of Costa Rica's border? Answer.. In Costa Rica and below every country observes the same egg cleaning methods as Europe. We don't need to refrigerate eggs but from Canada to Nicaragua do.
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Most traders in the EU would not even dare to ship fake goods on EU to EU ship routes They may have a different idea if we continue not to inspect at customers . They would no longer be under EU law
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Goods bound for the UK but travel via any of the EU 27 countries to get there will probably still have to be checked at the EU frontier.
Take the example of a lorry coming from Turkey on route to the UK after Brexit. It will probably still have to be checked at the border with the EU. Let me explain why I think this. Say if the lorry enters the EU at the Turkish/Greek border. Greek customs might just wave it through when they are informed by the lorry driver that the lorry will be only passing through the EU and that its final destination is the UK. That might work for a while but the unintended consequences for Greece and every country of the EU is that some lorries might be in fact not going to the UK but carrying say fake goods bound for any one of the 27 countries left in the EU.
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With most Greeks wearing £5 raybans and £6 converse trainers I don't think the Greek customs would be bothered about
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