Brexit negotiations
- Thread starter Scott-Copywriter
- Start date
That is not technically the same thing as a clear mandate, but since you keep avoiding the question, we'll just let it rest.
[/QUOTE]Simply because you have a different view of a mandate than the government, the voters and the parties do.
Now if the party had lost the election then someone else would have had a mandate eh?
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So on the topic of mandates, I'm growing more interested in the potential outcome of a second referendum:
Considering the low numbers of the smaller parties then yes the increase looks impressive. What was the change in actual number of councillors?
At this point in time which parties are campaigning for a 2nd referendum and will they get parliament to back them or are they waiting until the 2022 general election to put it to the voters to have a 2nd referendum?
Not that parties always do what they say in a campaign. Two major parties have promised EU referendums in the past 20 years. We had one referendum.
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Yes, you've made your position of "nothing matters except who wins the general election" quite clear.
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It's very interesting that many the long term supporters of democracy, i.e. those who have wanted the HoL abolished for its anti-democratic nature, now see it as a beacon of hope against an increasingly anti-democratic government seeking every opportunity to enact their agenda without support of our sovereign parliament.
Certainly May's threats/plan to flood the HoL has not been as effective as hoped.
Certainly May's threats/plan to flood the HoL has not been as effective as hoped.
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The recent proposal of a "customs partnership" seems to being put down by the usual suspects and ignored by others probably because they do not know how it works.
However, I think it has legs. It is complex but it seems to solve the problem with the border in Northern Ireland. As far as I can see it takes elements of the present arrangements for coping with cross-border income tax and VAT between dealings, which presently run without in physical infrastructure despite EU member countries all having differing VAT and income tax rates.
However, I think it has legs. It is complex but it seems to solve the problem with the border in Northern Ireland. As far as I can see it takes elements of the present arrangements for coping with cross-border income tax and VAT between dealings, which presently run without in physical infrastructure despite EU member countries all having differing VAT and income tax rates.
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The reason I think it is a rich mans business is that one many MPs were taking cash donations from Friends of Israel groups - source - Peter Oborne from Despatches, it's available on youtube. Why take this cash unless they need it. Do MPs need to pay their assistants out of thier own wages?
On chatting once with Gerard Batten MEP for South East (now interim UKIP leader) he has had his windows put through and the police would not investigate. Another friend who went canvassing in the local shopping area for UKIP had someone persistently accusing him of being a racist. I know he isn't from private discussions yet after that experience despite being 6'3 and well built he said he would never do it again. To me to be in politics with an alternative view (not LibLabCon) you need money for security not just day to day expenses.
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Do people who don't need the money accept cash donations?
Would you accept a cash donation from someone if you didn't need the money and you weren't against their organisation.
I've done campaigning for a local candidate for council elections. Met him many times and met a number of the local politicians in his party. Have served a meal to several of them.
No security except what I always provide his daughter.
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I'd be interested to know how you can tell someone isn't racist from a conversation; almost all the racists I've come across in real life have been quite adamant they weren't racist. That includes supporters of (and a candidate for) UKIP.
It's unfortunate that your friend suffered abuse, but aligning with a party known for the their racist positions and which is almost constantly fighting Public-Relations fires about the racist antics of their candidates is absolutely not going to earn him the benefit of the doubt.
The incredible harm that UKIP has inflicted on public discourse is frightening; by moving the discussion so far right, some people are now happy to publicly label as a "valid position" or "alternative view" those who seek to deny some folk (e.g. minority groups) the very right to even exist.
This is just one of the filthy legacies of Brexit.
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Reminder that the entire team of ardent Brexiteers that the BBC so love to provide with airtime also voted against any House of Lords reform back in 2012.
Rees Mogg, David Davis, Bernard Jenkin, Bill Cash, Nadine Dorres, John Redwood, etc.
It's almost like they don't really care about democracy at all as long as the systems in place serve them.
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https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...may-transition-period-extend-customs-deadlock
"Please may we extend our transition period as we still need to decide between the arrangement that won't work or the arrangement you already rejected in August."
You can call this government many things, but I don't think competent is one them.
"Please may we extend our transition period as we still need to decide between the arrangement that won't work or the arrangement you already rejected in August."
You can call this government many things, but I don't think competent is one them.
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If I was able to go into politics I would not accept donations full stop, I would look to be independent.
Why do MPs accept donations?
I suspect money is the reason and I suggested before I believe they need to pay their assistants and even provide pension arrangements. Surely on salary of £70k with travel and London living costs that is a stretch and might explain why a few years ago so many were caught abusing MPs expenses.
Happy to be corrected if my numbers are wrong.
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MPs staff are paid for out of an allowance, not out of their own wages.
So high wages, plus expenses that employees are not normally able to claim.
https://www.parliament.uk/about/mps-and-lords/members/pay-mps/
How is an MP providing for a pension any different than you, I, or anyone on here - employee or self employed - providing for a pension for themselves?
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Well, these haven't aged well...
"Brexit: Warning of rising food bills and disruption to supplies"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44060430
Interestingly and of note, the BBC are keen to get the weak counter-argument in nice and early:
"Brexit-supporting MPs say leaving the EU could reduce food prices by removing unnecessary regulation on UK farmers and cutting tariffs on imports from the rest of the world.
But the cross-party committee said it was unclear whether the government's primary goal after Brexit was reducing food prices, or maintaining high animal welfare and food safety standards."
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I don't think food prices would move that much though we could get a rise to begin with, Ireland is a big producer of agricultural products who are they going to sell them to?
Lots of products I buy in the supermarket are labelled as Greece, Egypt, New Zealand and Kenya etc.
Lots of products I buy in the supermarket are labelled as Greece, Egypt, New Zealand and Kenya etc.
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Can Ireland sell them to us with big queues at the border?
Will we want to buy Irish food if our own government imposes import duty onto import price (which despite media claims is not added to the retail price at that percentage)?
Will our government refuse to impose import duties?
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You may not think it, but do you have any factual information to base that forlorn hope on?
I can't see what the second paragraph is trying to say, but, just for information, Greece is in the EU.
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I see a section of the media are now investigating the financial self interest the Lords might have in delaying or altering the Brexit legislation. I cannot post the link due to being a newer member yet it does raise a question if they are receiving 100,000s of Euros every year due to EU Land subsidies are they not impartial?
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Not every member of the HoL is a land owner. The Express is not renowned for its impartiality and the owners of main stream media have a very much vested interest in Brexit happening.
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Yeah, quite a pickle for them. If only they were members of the world's largest and most powerful trading bloc.
Why do you think, despite strong evidence to the contrary, that food prices will "not move that much"? Are you concerned over the potential relaxation of animal welfare regulation?
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Do you have any concerns over the "self-interests" and conflicts of interests of those in government attempting to bypass parliament and push through Brexit at any cost? Or those in the same financial and elitist circles putting pressure on the government to do so?
Or are you only really concerned about a weak accusation against the HoL because you agree with those above?
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Actually my concerns over Europe pre-date the Brexit vote. Firstly it has been a transfer of wealth from the richer countries to the poorer. The poorer countries labour has come to Britain either to work and largely undercut home labour or to do criminal acts. Another aspect has been higher welfare than they get at home. Sure in recent years the Tory government due to public pressure has made some efforts to restrict getting welfare if you have not worked here. I know from police contacts there have been high crime levels recently due to EU immigration.
I'm not against helping poorer nations yet we can see from the crime leve sin Inner Cities and event like Grenfell there are serous poverty concerns at home and if we do need to help poorer nations why should it be Europe rather than Africa?
Our Constitution comprising Magna Carta and Bill of Rights makes the point about no foreign power can hold any influence in England and we know this is blatantly untrue with the European Court. Why has no Lord commented on this?
I'm not against helping poorer nations yet we can see from the crime leve sin Inner Cities and event like Grenfell there are serous poverty concerns at home and if we do need to help poorer nations why should it be Europe rather than Africa?
Our Constitution comprising Magna Carta and Bill of Rights makes the point about no foreign power can hold any influence in England and we know this is blatantly untrue with the European Court. Why has no Lord commented on this?
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The report is in relation to food from the EU only, once independent the rest of the world will be beating on our door to sell their produce, where the Uk wants to accept it can. Where it wishes to keep buying from the EU it can, but anyone believing the UK public would pay up to 22% extra for the same produce are simply falling for project fear all over again. The end customer would simply decline the offer.
My original comment was no-one knows anything for sure, and the costs could be lower just as easily higher, and that still stands as true today as the day posted, nothing has been agreed either way, still way to much hysteria over this. Try not to believe everything you read, I would have thought project fear would have taught everyone that by now.
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Yes the end user won't be paying 22% extra unless the importer is paying a lot more.
Think of the cost of selling a lettuce in the supermarket - add say 22% to the import cost of the lettuce and the price of the lettuce in the supermarket changes by a lot less than 22%.
Or how about the coffee beans? Imported from Switzerland say via the EU and add say 22% to the wholesale price. Retail cost of a cup of coffee goes up by what? 1p? 2p?
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It is not just a question about buying from the EU or rest of the world. We presently trade with the rest of the world, but with tariffs negotiated by the EU. When we leave the EU those tariffs might go down if we make trade deals with individual countries around the world, but they could go up. Since we might not have the same clout as the massive trading bloc which is the EU I would not bet on the tariffs going down.
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No, they would simply buy an alternative for much better value. We have the whole world we can trade with, on our own terms, not those imposed by the EU.
Anyway, I will let you get back to panicking like Corporal Jones.
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The question is whether we will be able to negotiate better trading arrangements than we have at present. I suspect we will be able to do so with some products, but it can work both ways. Some countries could see it as an opportunity to negotiate a better deal for themselves as they will be negotiating with a smaller player than the EU is.
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Yes agree the consumer is getting a better deal yet it encourages the gap between the rich and and indigenous poor which will lead eventually to a political backlash.
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There has not been a "transfer of wealth from richer countries to poorer countries". There has been a complex system of trade and investment that has helped grow the economy of smaller member states that in turn benefits our own economy. As has been discussed before this can help naturally balance migration, thus addressing the core concern of Brexiteers.
Studies have shown EU immigrants have almost no effect on the value of overall local employment, and only a very small effect at the lower end of wage distribution. Your assertion that "they undercut home labour" is largely untrue.
Additionally, your assertion that "they come here to do criminal acts" is also untrue, with data showing that EU migrants:
- are positive net contributors to the economy (adding to the economy more than they take away)
- use healthcare resources at a lower rate than British nationals (they tend to be younger, healthier and better educated than British nationals)
- with the benefit of their net contribution to the economy are less of a burden on the NHS than British nationals
- have relatively little impact on the NHS - the total impact of EU migrants on the NHS is estimated to be about £160m; that's 0.13% of the NHS £116b budget
- appear to commit crimes at a lower rate than British nationals
- claim welfare at a much lower rate than British nationals
https://fullfact.org/immigration/how-immigrants-affect-public-finances/
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1114/051114-economic-impact-EU-immigration
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-immigration-and-pressure-nhs/
Our "constitution" consists of much more than those two items and is spread across myriad legislation, but the point you may be missing is that we choose to sign agreements where we respect the rulings of the ECJ, since the infrastructure it allows us to take advantage of is demonstrably to our benefit.
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There's a fair bit to unpack here so let's pick it apart.
Yes, it's a report about EU food, but it's still talking about the wider impact on our markets. We grow just 48% of our own food, we import 30% from the EU and another 11% from countries covered by our EU membership (40 agreements covering 56 countries). 48% we grow ourselves, 41% we import via our EU membership, and the remainder from our non-EU trade that we already carry out despite being part of the EU (a thing Brexiteers would have us believe can't happen without Brexit).
Much of the Brexiteer rhetoric includes this odd bravado that "the world will be beating on our door to trade with us", a sentiment that doesn't appear to be backed up with any evidence. In fact, the opposite appears to be the case (https://politi.co/2GCcEnd) with our potentially greatest target being India: we have been largely responsible for holding up their EU-trade deal because of government concerns over visa-reciprocity, a problem that will no doubt re-appear should we attempt an FTA with them. India's economy is roughly the same as ours and whilst theirs is growing steadily (7.1%pa), post-Brexit ours will continue to stagnate (less than the current 1.8%pa); what evidence do you have that they, or anyone, will be "beating on our door"?
The problems we face, especially with "no deal" scenarios is that additional costs will be incurred, in terms of tariffs, non-tariff barriers, and infrastructure delays. Some of these can be mitigated with adjustment to our own regulations but this comes with its own problems: animal welfare concerns (relaxation of animal welfare standards to lower prices) and domestic food producers (tariff cuts causing damage to agri-food sectors).
You finish by positing that people won't pay 22% more for the same items, a claim not actually made in the article, and assuming that people can simply not buy food, which is a little silly. As for the "Project Fear" remark, well, most of the pre-referendum predictions about this period have come to pass and the government's own research shows that post Brexit, it'll also be true.
"No-one knows for sure" is a lazy refrain; while technically true it isn't useful. It keeps getting trotted out as a weak rebuttal to reams of data and evidence about the harm Brexit will cause.
Of course you're right, nobody knows for certain, but lots of professionals with lots of experience can make very educated predictions - you may not like them and may want to wave them away with Gove's anti-intellectual battle-cry of "we've had enough of experts" - but the evidence is very strongly indicative that food prices will rise (possibly even if we sacrifice animal welfare), but there is almost no evidence that food prices will fall.
Basing an argument on evidence is not hysteria and no amount of chanting "Project Fear" will change that.
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