I accept that, however it was brought in under a Labour government. The current lot have already said that they see Brexit as an opportunity to remove 'red tape' from employers.
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Brexit negotiations
- Thread starter Scott-Copywriter
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I accept that, however it was brought in under a Labour government. The current lot have already said that they see Brexit as an opportunity to remove 'red tape' from employers.
Yes, if it was done by a Labour government
Grin.
A time or two a Labour government has not been known for acting in the interests of some people.
Just think, no matter who we vote for the government we get always causes problems. Its like MPs have a desire to meddle and get let loose to do so regardless of the cost.
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Broadly speaking there's a quality increase and of course the big benefit: consumer protections.
Cool. Some of the protections we have pre-date our membership. Membership has still afforded us many additional protections and held our governments to account where they did not wish to adhere to such standards.
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Your Daily Mail hysteria about social workers aside, you just went back on your own argument in the space of a paragraph! You imply the government can't be against workers rights because it isn't "official policy" then immediately go on to complain about workers rights as "employment red tape", a 'thing' the government actively campaign against.
Yes, the Conservatives do have an agenda to reduce workers rights; there's plenty of historical precedent to back up that position, and just a couple of weeks ago was the news the Tories are planning to scrap the Working Time Directive once they've executed the hardest Brexit they can manage (against the 'will of the people').
You can try and argue the validity of the WTD in an economic context if you wish (which is what right-wingers tend to do at this point in the discussion), but it's a good example of worker protection they want shot of.
I don't think you understand capitalism. The further towards end-stage capitalism you lean, the more the system devalues the worker. Much like socialism, if you push too far towards capitalism the fundamental flaws in human nature will cause the system to punish the people.
I mean come on, suggesting that removing worker protections somehow benefits workers is pretty ridiculous.
Says the guy with an inability to use the word "Labour" without sneering. Although it's not unfair to suggest that in recent years the Tories have *really* earned their detractors.Did you always have this visceral hatred for everything Tory?
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Ah, another post from Cobby. I've no idea what he's saying, of course, as I've had him on Ignore for a while, but I have something interesting today: the "architect" of Project Fear now admits that he was wrong and that Brexit is not necessarily a disaster!
Now if the Remainers can get on board that would be great! Some Remainers voted to stay because of belief in the social and other benefits of being part of the larger EU family. Fair enough. Others voted to stay only because they are convinced the economy will tank and that we will all be poorer. This second lot now have reason to change their minds.
The UK can make an economic success out of Brexit!
Now if the Remainers can get on board that would be great! Some Remainers voted to stay because of belief in the social and other benefits of being part of the larger EU family. Fair enough. Others voted to stay only because they are convinced the economy will tank and that we will all be poorer. This second lot now have reason to change their minds.
The UK can make an economic success out of Brexit!
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I have read many HSE documents and attended several courses on H & S at work and I have never once seen EU directives mentioned. I think the health and safety at work red tape which was referred to in the Leave campaign is yet another one of their urban myths. There are EU safety standards regarding products but with regard to the H & S at work as far as I can see they do not follow EU directives.
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Better than average, as the Brexit date gets nearer EVERYONE involved in Brexit will wish to make it happen, it is in everyone's interests. All the hysteria from project fear, to running this country and its Gov down will be seen for what it is, uninformed tittle tattle.
Yes we will have obstacles and problems to overcome, but we will have massive opportunities as well.
So far all the so called experts and project fear have been shown to be totally over the top with their forcecasts of doom, people need to rediscover their confidence again in doing things as a country and not relying on the EU to look after us, when in reality they rarely have.
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Maybe everyone will be working to make it happen. Though which particular version of it may be questionable.
Difference of opinions regarding what is wanted, ministers ignoring any presumed consensus in meetings. And the usual political advantage that different politicians will seek.
Plus don't forget there is another side to this. And 28 governments who get to vote on the total agreement.
If one or more votes against the agreement we get ... what?
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The Byre
In a word - yes!
H&S is an entirely national responsibility - or if you are in the UK, a national pastime! Having worked and run a business in Germany, where H&S rules are extremely strict, I imagined, on opening a UK business, things would be somewhat more 'relaxed'.
The opposite is true. Many of the H&S rules and regulations in the UK are not only pointlessly idiotic, but in many cases completely counter-productive and make the working environment more dangerous.
Also, many of the rules are in direct conflict with one another. For example, some building regs actually make buildings dangerous and increase fire and other risks.
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We get ... a hard Brexit, an even cleaner slate.
I don't know why we are even negotiating with them. Whatever the deal there is almost zero chance of all other nations agreeing. That's why, from day one, I've been saying we should just plan and aim for a no-deal departure.
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A few years back my wife did a college course. Top floor of a college building, it has lifts, not a problem. She uses crutches or wheelchair as needed.
The college was required to come up with a fire safety plan. Being idiots they did not consult the person affected.
The plan was to get her out of the classroom ahead of her classmates and have her go down the stairs ahead of others.
Call it 10 minutes to manage 4 flights of stairs with only a couple of people able to pass her at a time. She refused to agree to the plan.
They insisted it met requirements. She still refused.
At the top of the stairs (and probably elsewhere in the building) was a designated fire shelter.
The college was required to come up with a fire safety plan. Being idiots they did not consult the person affected.
The plan was to get her out of the classroom ahead of her classmates and have her go down the stairs ahead of others.
Call it 10 minutes to manage 4 flights of stairs with only a couple of people able to pass her at a time. She refused to agree to the plan.
They insisted it met requirements. She still refused.
At the top of the stairs (and probably elsewhere in the building) was a designated fire shelter.
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The main EU health & safety laws were, as I recall, in the form of six separate regulations, introduced in 1992; these included Display Screen Equipment, Management of H&S at Work (introducing the need for risk assessments into workplaces), and all sorts of other things.
There’s also the Working Time Directive (an actual EU directive, not a regulation), which gives workers (which appears now to include people who thought they were self-employed) time-off.
The EU-based health & safety laws are not myths, but many are regulations, not directives.
Karl Limpert
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[
I can see how the "Working Time Directive " is something that you are familiar with in your business. A bit of a political hot potato as well, with gig economy etc. I will not go there.
I can see how the "Working Time Directive " is something that you are familiar with in your business. A bit of a political hot potato as well, with gig economy etc. I will not go there.
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I know a few people that are struggling to find work right now who would happily trade in some of those protections for more job opportunities
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How can that be when, according to this lying government, we have more people in employment than ever before, meaning there are more jobs available than ever before.
Trading in protections for more job opportunities is inown as the race to the bottom.
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Having spent many long hours in the early nineties in my local library, poring over the six H&S regulations, I was once very familiar with all of them. At the time there was a lot of discussion about what constituted a Display Screen, and debates about the other various regulations, but I’ve not concentrated on H&S work for many years.
They very much exist though, even if a local library doesn’t anymore to let you enjoy them in the reading room.
The Working Time Directive is an animal just keeps giving. Or taking. It’s an EU directive that you may have missed in your several courses & documents, but is something that the UK will have the freedom to control in the future – it’s not a myth. (As things stand, the UK goes beyond the directive, offers an extra 8 days more leave than necessary, and I think the official government position is that they won’t be reducing the impact of this law if or when it’s free to do so.)
Karl Limpert
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You can find out which portions of the figures are a lie?
Rare to see zero unemployment and we are nowhere near that as a country. We are also a far cry from 3 million unemployed too.
Wife got a new job in November last year it took her 20 minutes. A couple of decades back it used to take 2 weeks to get work. She would probably not trade in protection for more job opportunities these days but 20 years ago may have been wiling.
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Know what's really boring? Government-bashing!
I'm 48, and I can't remember a single time where people weren't moaning and whinging about whatever government happens to be in power - like they could somehow do a better job themselves! It's as if they get all caught up in a Jerry Springer-style shouting circus and just repeat what the gutter press says like brainwashed sheep.
Thing is, I've found it's far better to simply ignore the government, and just get on and do what you do. I don't know of a single person who's out of work. What's the problem? Do you need mummy-government to provide constant bitty all the time? Poor little snowflakes!
I wish people would start taking responsibilty for themselves rather than blaming a load of people in a building in London who have nowt to do with anything - and anyway, they only reflect the people who put them there, ie THE PUBLIC!
Suck
It
Up
I'm 48, and I can't remember a single time where people weren't moaning and whinging about whatever government happens to be in power - like they could somehow do a better job themselves! It's as if they get all caught up in a Jerry Springer-style shouting circus and just repeat what the gutter press says like brainwashed sheep.
Thing is, I've found it's far better to simply ignore the government, and just get on and do what you do. I don't know of a single person who's out of work. What's the problem? Do you need mummy-government to provide constant bitty all the time? Poor little snowflakes!
I wish people would start taking responsibilty for themselves rather than blaming a load of people in a building in London who have nowt to do with anything - and anyway, they only reflect the people who put them there, ie THE PUBLIC!
Suck
It
Up
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sirearl
Know what's really boring? Government-bashing!
and anyway, they only reflect the people who put them there, ie THE PUBLIC!
Suck
It
Up
Quite,problem seems to me that the public vote for a dustman to do brain surgery.
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I understood that details such as parental leave appear to be more generous but have a much fast drop-off in pay levels. The government's "official position" aside, how do you think this might be affected once we leave the EU framework?
And were that exchange to happen and they got employment, do you think they would wish to have those protections back so they would not be underpaid or overworked or forced to work in dangerous or compromising situations?
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You find holding the government to account to be boring? Ironically, not so boring you won't complain about it.
Thanks for this! I'm always looking for good quotes so I can show people examples of those who aren't aware of their own privilege.Thing is, I've found it's far better to simply ignore the government, and just get on and do what you do. I don't know of a single person who's out of work. What's the problem? Do you need mummy-government to provide constant bitty all the time? Poor little snowflakes!
I wish people would start taking responsibilty for themselves rather than blaming a load of people in a building in London who have nowt to do with anything - and anyway, they only reflect the people who put them there, ie THE PUBLIC!
Suck It Up
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This is categorically false. It is *potentially* in the interests of some in the low-paid unskilled sectors, and *definitely* in the interests of the rich elite. All other evidence shows it is detrimental overall and thus in nobody's interests.
The government is being heavily criticised based on their actions (or much of the time, their inaction), which is completely evidence based and thus informed. This right-wing Daily Mail attempt to co-opt patriotism and tie it to unwavering loyalty to the people in power is authoritarianism. It's in full swing in the USA right now, we don't need it here, too.
Your comment about the forecasts is, as before, incorrect. Many of their predictions were accurate but they were just that, predictions. Nobody made promises, it was a forecast and based on best evidence.
Meanwhile we were promised that Brexit would be easy. Easiest thing in the world. Leaving the EU would be simple. Trade deals would be a piece of cake. No evidence for these claims beyond "trust us!".
So let me ask you this: Why, if it's all so easy and it's going to be so good for Britain, do you need the Remainers to do it for you?
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poli
The general point I have been making is that H & S at work was not an invention of the EU, which you know but it seems that many people do not know this. The big change was in 1974 when everything changed with the Health and Safety at Work Act. In 1974 there were 651 fatalities in the workplace. In 2012/13 there were 148 fatalities.
In a way I am glad that we are leaving the EU as the people who blame the failures of H & S authorities here on the EU will not have that excuse any more. They will have to look at the real reasons why H & S fails people. They will have to look at the tick box culture and H&S policy writing culture for a start. A culture which sees H&S as just form filling or getting some consultant to prepare a document which is filed away and not used until an accident happens. A culture of lack of H & S supervision and adherence. A culture of a lack of common sense.
The general point I have been making is that H & S at work was not an invention of the EU, which you know but it seems that many people do not know this. The big change was in 1974 when everything changed with the Health and Safety at Work Act. In 1974 there were 651 fatalities in the workplace. In 2012/13 there were 148 fatalities.
In a way I am glad that we are leaving the EU as the people who blame the failures of H & S authorities here on the EU will not have that excuse any more. They will have to look at the real reasons why H & S fails people. They will have to look at the tick box culture and H&S policy writing culture for a start. A culture which sees H&S as just form filling or getting some consultant to prepare a document which is filed away and not used until an accident happens. A culture of lack of H & S supervision and adherence. A culture of a lack of common sense.
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The Byre
That resonated with me massively!
Recently we had some protests in our area about wind-farms and pylons and because I was deeply involved in local politics, the pressure groups came to me to ask for help.
They were completely shocked when I told them that if they were to join a political party of their own choosing, they would get far further and have more influence, than if I raised their issues at some policy committee meeting. Despite being the chair at many of these binges, at any meeting, mine is just one vote amongst many.
People moan and complain about this or that policy, but are not prepared to get involved. I once (ages ago, before we made things more democratic) attended a committee meeting where five of us, yes, just five of us chose which of three candidates were to be our next MEP. Anyone of our members could have put themselves forward as a member of that committee and any one could have put themselves forward at candidate for MEP.
But just three people were prepared to put themselves out there as MEP candidates and only five were prepared to drive 30 or 40 miles to some hotel backroom to interview the candidates and pick one.
If you get involved in the political process, you can have enormous influence. But you have to get your sorry arse out there and get involved. If you did not campaign for remain or otherwise did not contribute to the remain campaign in some manner, as @simon field says, suck it up!
I even meet many people, especially the young who complain bitterly about Brexit and the fact that they will no longer be able to work or study in other EU countries, who admit that they didn't even bother to vote!
If you are politically inactive, you only have yourself to blame.
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Agreed The Byre.
The willingness to get involved politically is increasingly rare. People moan about the candidates standing at election but won't help choose them and won't seek to stand themselves.
Not all candidates are nice people and not all are the ones you want representing you.
I have met politicians and candidates willing to stand from several parties, people willing to spend time and effort to make a difference. Many have been great people, a few self serving people who would (and are) a liability for a party.
A few weeks after moving into a house one of the local councillors popped round to introduce himself, to see if there was anything he could help with or that we had concerns about.
Turns out he does this to everyone, understandably he was a popular guy but he also took action where he could.
His was the only the 2nd funeral I've been to where the church put speakers outside for the crowd that could not fit in.
The willingness to get involved politically is increasingly rare. People moan about the candidates standing at election but won't help choose them and won't seek to stand themselves.
Not all candidates are nice people and not all are the ones you want representing you.
I have met politicians and candidates willing to stand from several parties, people willing to spend time and effort to make a difference. Many have been great people, a few self serving people who would (and are) a liability for a party.
A few weeks after moving into a house one of the local councillors popped round to introduce himself, to see if there was anything he could help with or that we had concerns about.
Turns out he does this to everyone, understandably he was a popular guy but he also took action where he could.
His was the only the 2nd funeral I've been to where the church put speakers outside for the crowd that could not fit in.
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Thanks for this! I'm always looking for good quotes so I can show people examples of those who aren't aware of their own privilege.
No you aren't! That's just something you've decided to type into a business forum!
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History doesn't change the fact that it's a stupid, childish, subservient, backward thing to do.
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Yet pretty popular.
What would you prefer? A president elected by a few hundred voters in December every 4 years such as the US has?
Or a president elected by popular vote of all the voters as some countries have?
Or the British system of a prime minister being elected by the party and being PM because his or her party won a general election?
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Don't forget that many young people *couldn't* vote because they were 16 and 17 years old, instead of the arbitrary limit of 18.
In the last year I've had more meaningful discussion about Brexit and the political implications of it with young people (both remainers and leavers) than I have with the older generation.
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Oh don't worry, your quote now exists on at least 2 forums (fora?) and a facebook chat in the context of unacknowledged privilege.
Historically there are good structural arguments for such a system of government but it's an anachronism that has no place in a modern democratic society. They are a net drain on the taxpayer and the biggest welfare recipients outside of the Conservative's megacorp friends given billions of pounds of tax forgiveness.
Unfortunately it's in the interest of the elite and the wealthy to maintain a system of forelock tugging as it's a massive barrier to social mobility, so it won't be going anywhere soon!
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sirearl
I suspect that most people would be satisfied with people that are qualified to do the job asked of them ,rather than the current system of randomly picking old Etonians et al.
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