Brexit negotiations

[Deleted member 59730]

It really depends on what you call freedom. The EU is providing its citizens with far more benefits and freedoms that the Brexiter MPs are planning for the UK.

I'll be more specific as this is a business forum. Inside the EU we have the freedom to work throughout the bloc. That includes everyone including one man businesses, sole traders and freelancers. Everyone from plumbers to musicians, designers to photographers, actors, film directors, management consultants, yacht crews etc etc etc... That is a RIGHT which is being taken away with Brexit.

We also have the right to take our tools and equipment across EU borders. Just look at the paperwork needed to enter non-EU Switzerland to exhibit at a trade show.

 

[Cobby]

Which will actually hit the EU harder than it will us.

That's a pretty bold claim. Let's see your evidence.

Maybe not, but there are possibilities.

If we leave to trade under WTO rules (crashing out!), then WTO rules, specifically GATT Art 24, allows for parties to enter a transition agreement that maintains the status quo while a new deal is negotiated. So we could continue zero tariff trade with the EU, but have left the political EU. And as you observe, the transition could last for 5+ years.

WTO doesn't cover services, financial passporting and a dozen other things. But even just considering the trade of goods, why would the EU allow tariff and responsibility-free access to their biggest asset?

 

[Cobby]

While leaving the EU to trade on WTO terms continues to be vilified, "crashing out", "cliff edge", "leap in the dark" and other such emotive language, then MPs will be scared of it. But are the public seeing through that?

The English language is good like that, allowing us to condense complex ideas into smaller and more briefly delivered metaphors that allow people to understand the concept with minimum effort.

A car driving off a cliff is an action with many negative effects you can predict with reasonable reliability and it's a pretty irresponsible act at best.

A racing car, crashing through a barrier into an undefined part of the track and thus losing its competitive advantage for some unknown and unspecified benefit, would be irresponsible if done deliberately, but represents the same outcome even if it happens by accident.

They're pretty good metaphors for the "No Deal" Brexit scenario.

Where the govt has got caught with its pants down is that the preparation for no deal, which should have been started in earnest in 2016 is to the best of my knowledge nowhere. But that isn't a reason to reject the best option. There will be a £39BN fund that could be made use of by a Chancellor that actually wants to leave.

There is no Brexit dividend. We covered this when debunking the £325m/week for the NHS, that's not simply money you can unplug from one place and plug it into another.

I do agree, although the government have done very little, they shouldn't reject the best option - Remaining in the EU.

 

[Cobby]

A United States of Europe supporter giving advice to Brexiteers, is like the fox giving advice to the chickens in the chicken coop.

This doesn't really tie in with the Brexiters' "They need us more than we need them" gambit.

 

[Newchodge]

The problem with May's deal is, allegedly, the NI backstop. Is it me, or are they missing the point? The backstop is there only if any trade deal we may or may not negotiate fails to keep an open border on the island of Ireland.

Can anyone suggest how, under any circumstances, we can keep an open border with the EU once we have the right to formulate our own health and safety regulations, food standards etc etc. Surely, THAT is the issue - under any rules, including WTO rules, we have to have control of imports and exports, as do the places we are exporting from and importing to. How can that ever, under any circumstances, be squared with the Good Friday Agreement?

If anyone can suggest a method, please put it forward. Incidentally, technological solutions can't work, because they don't control the rogue organisations who will want to import into Ireland the cheap, EU-illegal, chlorinated chicken that we will have to accept in this country from the USA when we get a trade deal with them (just as an example).

 

[Cobby]

Okay, it's been a busy few days.
Theresa May calls off MPs' vote on her Brexit deal
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46509288

I had suspected she might do this as I think part of her scheme is simply to run out the clock, playing chicken with the HoC and the welfare of our nation. It's a shocking and huge dereliction of duty on her part, and about as far from democracy and the sovereignty of parliament as our government has managed in living memory.

The only date May would mention with regards to the vote was the 21st January, a previously established deadline for agreement of the House. However there is an argument that by dint of being ready to go ahead and vote, she has an "agreement" from the house on the "deal" she has procured from the EU and as such she could delay the vote until 28th March, leaving it until the last moment to terrify MPs into voting for it. It's an unbelievably reckless level of brinkmanship on her part, even just delaying the vote.

The EU have been clear that there is now no renegotiation, and member states have made it clear in the past that our Government cannot deal with them directly and skirt the EU27 collective position, but May has said she's now off on a tour. Between now and when she *does* hold the vote, nothing will change, so the only benefit to kicking the can down the road is putting Corbyn into a corner; that's a lot of risk just to stay in office.


Meanwhile...
http://www.itnproductions.co.uk/new...control-government-is-in-chaos?type=editorial
Corbyn tried to criticise the PM for thinking she can go back to renegotiate with the EU when the EU has already said "no more". He went on to then say she should step aside and let him take over so he can go back to the EU and renegotiate. Absurd. I think he's still using the "jobs first Brexit" line as well, but May's still using the "Let's spend £350m on the NHS" lie, so it's dishonesty all around!

 

[Gecko001]

The problem with May's deal is, allegedly, the NI backstop. Is it me, or are they missing the point? The backstop is there only if any trade deal we may or may not negotiate fails to keep an open border on the island of Ireland.

Can anyone suggest how, under any circumstances, we can keep an open border with the EU once we have the right to formulate our own health and safety regulations, food standards etc etc. Surely, THAT is the issue - under any rules, including WTO rules, we have to have control of imports and exports, as do the places we are exporting from and importing to. How can that ever, under any circumstances, be squared with the Good Friday Agreement?

If anyone can suggest a method, please put it forward. Incidentally, technological solutions can't work, because they don't control the rogue organisations who will want to import into Ireland the cheap, EU-illegal, chlorinated chicken that we will have to accept in this country from the USA when we get a trade deal with them (just as an example).

Checks at Northern Ireland ports or GB ports which serve ships coming from NI.

 

[Mr D]

Checks at Northern Ireland ports or GB ports which serve ships coming from NI.

We would allow the EU to do those checks?
Great - UK imports the stuff, paperwork indicates for a wholesaler in NI.
Then what? Smuggled over the border to Eire by road that no one checks anything on?

Maybe not the chicken. Maybe other stuff we will accept in this country that Eire will have problems with. Maybe stuff that the EU imposes a trade tariff on for import into the EU that we do not have a tariff or not the same size tariff on.

 

[Cobby]

Checks at Northern Ireland ports or GB ports which serve ships coming from NI.

So a Northern Ireland backstop? They will not accept regulatory divergence from the rest of the UK.

 

[Newchodge]

Checks at Northern Ireland ports or GB ports which serve ships coming from NI.

Checks at Nothern Ireland ports of goods coming from Liverpool? Would you accept checks at the Tamar of goods travelling between Cornwall and Devon?

 

[Gecko001]

We would allow the EU to do those checks?
Great - UK imports the stuff, paperwork indicates for a wholesaler in NI.
Then what? Smuggled over the border to Eire by road that no one checks anything on?

Maybe not the chicken. Maybe other stuff we will accept in this country that Eire will have problems with. Maybe stuff that the EU imposes a trade tariff on for import into the EU that we do not have a tariff or not the same size tariff on.

Good point. The costs of such checks have not been mentioned by anybody. UK personnel will have to carry them out. Maybe the costs of those checks could be paid for by the EU. Since they are to do with trade, then perhaps that could be negotiated in the next stage, however do not bank on it as the EU would probably find a reason for it being considered as part of the divorce stage. Hence, since that stage is know closed for negotiation, the UK will probably have to foot the bill.

 

[Newchodge]

Good point. The costs of such checks have not been mentioned by anybody. UK personnel will have to carry them out. Maybe the costs of those checks could be paid for by the EU. Since they are to do with trade, then perhaps that could be negotiated in the next stage, however do not bank on it as the EU would probably find a reason for it being considered as part of the divorce stage. Hence since that stage is know closed for negotiation, the UK will probably have to foot the bill.

Why would the EU accept the UK stating that the checks have been carried out? Would you trust anything this contemptible govrnment says?

 

[Newchodge]

The emergency debate on withdrawal of the brexit vote is about to start. The opposition benches outnumber the government bench by at least 3 to 1. Is that not, of itself, contemptible?

 

[Mr D]

Why would the EU accept the UK stating that the checks have been carried out? Would you trust anything this contemptible govrnment says?

Would you trust anything any government says when the people doing the work (the actual checks) will not be government?

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Theresa's Brexit triumph.

 

[quikshop]

Why would the EU accept the UK stating that the checks have been carried out?

Because their collective GDP depends on it... money as we have heard repeatedly over the last 2.5 years is the primary driver behind all the discussions.

Would you trust anything this contemptible govrnment says?

Not sure many would. Would anyone trust Labour more? Their dear leader is vehemently anti-EU but the party body are foaming-at-the-mouth EU lackeys.

Lib Dems? Are they still around? Last I heard they were in Cotswold-on-the-stow blaming crop circles on Brexit...

UKIP? I hear Rudolf Hess was denied membership because of his liberal views...

 

[Mr D]

The emergency debate on withdrawal of the brexit vote is about to start. The opposition benches outnumber the government bench by at least 3 to 1. Is that not, of itself, contemptible?

Contemptible in which way? That one side chooses to outnumber the other or that some don't bother turning up?

 

[Mr D]

Because their collective GDP depends on it... money as we have heard repeatedly over the last 2.5 years is the primary driver behind all the discussions.



Not sure many would. Would anyone trust Labour more? Their dear leader is vehemently anti-EU but the party body are foaming-at-the-mouth EU lackeys.

Lib Dems? Are they still around? Last I heard they were in Cotswold-on-the-stow blaming crop circles on Brexit...

Labour are used to disagreeing as a party with Corbyn. After all its a matter of principle when someone is doing the wrong thing.

 

[Newchodge]

Because their collective GDP depends on it... money as we have heard repeatedly over the last 2.5 years is the primary driver behind all the discussions.



Not sure many would. Would anyone trust Labour more? Their dear leader is vehemently anti-EU but the party body are foaming-at-the-mouth EU lackeys.

Lib Dems? Are they still around? Last I heard they were in Cotswold-on-the-stow blaming crop circles on Brexit...

UKIP? I hear Rudolf Hess was denied membership because of his liberal views...

It is only the Conservative government that has been held to be in contempt of Parliament, for the first time in Parliament's history.

 

[Newchodge]

Contemptible in which way? That one side chooses to outnumber the other or that some don't bother turning up?

Contemptible as in having been fouind to be in contempt of Parliament

 

[Mr D]

It is only the Conservative government that has been held to be in contempt of Parliament, for the first time in Parliament's history.

Unlike the voters who manage to hold pretty much every government in contempt at some point.

 

[Newchodge]

Because their collective GDP depends on it.

Could you explain that because it makes no sense to me

 

[Mr D]

Contemptible as in having been fouind to be in contempt of Parliament

And you have agreed with parliament every time they have decided anything?

 

[Clodbuster]

The first person May spends time with is the German Chancellor - Europe is run by Germany and why we have to listen to a person whose name conjures up death and destruction to older London families is beyond me. It is a pity England is being sidetracked by those who feel only the lining of their pockets.

 

[Mr D]

I'll be more specific as this is a business forum. Inside the EU we have the freedom to work throughout the bloc. That includes everyone including one man businesses, sole traders and freelancers. Everyone from plumbers to musicians, designers to photographers, actors, film directors, management consultants, yacht crews etc etc etc... That is a RIGHT which is being taken away with Brexit.

We also have the right to take our tools and equipment across EU borders. Just look at the paperwork needed to enter non-EU Switzerland to exhibit at a trade show.

The right you refer to applies to people in the EU.

You may not have noticed that our voters chose to leave the EU. So we are leaving.
The EU people still have a right to travel and work within the EU, nothing has changed there.
EU have not taken that away.

Just we won't be in the EU. With that decision come plenty of consequences. You have noticed one of them.

 

[Paul Norman]

The first person May spends time with is the German Chancellor - Europe is run by Germany and why we have to listen to a person whose name conjures up death and destruction to older London families is beyond me. It is a pity England is being sidetracked by those who feel only the lining of their pockets.

Really? Merkel conjures up death to people?

The war ended a long time ago. Most people have somewhat moved on now. Merkel was certainly in now way responsible for anything that happened that long ago.

I doubt many people do make that association. I hope I am right about that. Because if we are still harbouring that kind of view then we are in a very dark place indeed.

 

[Clodbuster]

"Really? Merkel conjures up death to people?"

Who said Merkel, the puppet threatening us is the EU president.

 

[Cobby]

Because their collective GDP depends on it... money as we have heard repeatedly over the last 2.5 years is the primary driver behind all the discussions.

"Their collective GDP depends on..." what? A £39billion payment? That's what? Less than half a percent of "their collective GDP".

The primary focus of discussions has been centred around regulatory alignment and the status of citizens' rights. The UK media have made much more out of the payments because ever since the big Leave Brexit lie from the bus, misrepresenting the costs and benefits of the EU has been the go-to for selling papers and getting clicks.

Not sure many would. Would anyone trust Labour more? Their dear leader is vehemently anti-EU but the party body are foaming-at-the-mouth EU lackeys.

The current government has worked very hard and spent a lot of public money trying to obfuscate proceedings and keep Parliament in the dark. Yesterday the leader of the Government tried to remove Parliament's sovereign right to offer any guidance to the government at all.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonardelli/theresa-may-told-eu-leaders-brexit-vote-pulled
Michael Gove went on telly at 8am absolutely insisting the vote would go ahead and May had already decided to pull it without informing anyone except the EU? May had already spent hundreds of thousands of pounds of public money on advertising about the vote, and it now looks like she's going to try and avoid all scrutiny on it until the absolute last moment.

Corbyn is as guilty as May is of putting his career ambitions above the welfare of the country, but without Labour stealing the Tories' majority and insisting on the release of documents along the way, May would have been almost completely unopposed in her desire to exclude Parliament from the proceedings altogether.


Lib Dems? Are they still around? Last I heard they were in Cotswold-on-the-stow blaming crop circles on Brexit...

UKIP? I hear Rudolf Hess was denied membership because of his liberal views...[/QUOTE]

 

[Mr D]

Really? Merkel conjures up death to people?

The war ended a long time ago. Most people have somewhat moved on now. Merkel was certainly in now way responsible for anything that happened that long ago.

I doubt many people do make that association. I hope I am right about that. Because if we are still harbouring that kind of view then we are in a very dark place indeed.

Would not suggest that Merkel conjures up death to anyone. Have never heard it claimed that she did anything bad during WW2. What with being born in 1954.

 

[Jeff FV]

The first person May spends time with is the German Chancellor - Europe is run by Germany and why we have to listen to a person whose name conjures up death and destruction to older London families is beyond me. It is a pity England is being sidetracked by those who feel only the lining of their pockets.

This is a disgraceful post.

Time moves on. The Second World War was a long, long time ago. It is history. I am sorry that you still feel enmity towards Germany, please try and move on. Do not be afraid or affronted by someone’s surname, it is an accident of fate. (I presume you are somehow conflating Jean-Claude Junker with the Junkers aircraft of the Second World War?)

The Berlin Wall has now been “down” for longer than it was up - time moves on.

Time moves on, look to the future, not the past. Your post appears to come straight out of the 1970s.

 

[Cobby]

The first person May spends time with is the German Chancellor...why we have to listen to a person whose name conjures up death and destruction to older London families is beyond me.

Firstly, Merkel is an accomplished leader, a doctor of quantum chemistry and by all accounts a genuine progressive. It's a boon for May to even be received by Merkel given May's endless deceits.
Secondly Merkel is no more responsible for The Blitz than you are for Great Britain's slave empire, and to attempt to conjure such base prejudice to reinforce your position only proves how weak and ridiculous it really is.

 

[Clodbuster]

This is a disgraceful post.

Time moves on. The Second World War was a long, long time ago. It is history. I am sorry that you still feel enmity towards Germany, please try and move on. Do not be afraid or affronted by someone’s surname, it is an accident of fate. (I presume you are somehow conflating Jean-Claude Junker with the Junkers aircraft of the Second World War?)

The Berlin Wall has now been “down” for longer than it was up - time moves on.

Time moves on, look to the future, not the past. Your post appears to come straight out of the 1970s.

I don't think so. My family combined lost 3 uncles, one aunt and 2 grandparents. History repeats itself regularly and who is to say we are not witnessing the domination of Europe by a different direction. I've read that Churchill and others were vilified before that conflagration. Are you denying that the first person spoken to in ANY EU problem is NOT the German Chancellor?

The Berlin Wall had nothing to do with Germany's domination of Europe

 

[Clodbuster]

Firstly, Merkel is an accomplished leader, a doctor of quantum chemistry and by all accounts a genuine progressive. It's a boon for May to even be received by Merkel given May's endless deceits.
Secondly Merkel is no more responsible for The Blitz than you are for Great Britain's slave empire, and to attempt to conjure such base prejudice to reinforce your position only proves how weak and ridiculous it really is.

You certainly read that post didn't you. As usual you jump to conclusions.

 

[Mr D]

"Really? Merkel conjures up death to people?"

Who said Merkel, the puppet threatening us is the EU president.

That would be …. you.
German Chancellor you referred to.

The first person May spends time with is the German Chancellor - Europe is run by Germany and why we have to listen to a person whose name conjures up death and destruction to older London families is beyond me. It is a pity England is being sidetracked by those who feel only the lining of their pockets.

Then you refer to the EU president. Hate to say it to you but the EU doesn't appear to have a president. It has instead multiple people who are Presidents.
Donald Trusk (President of the European Council). Born in 1957.
Jean-Claude Juncker (President of the European Commission). Born in 1954.
Antonio Tajani (President of the European Parliament). Born in 1953.

So exactly which of these people born in the 1950s has their name conjuring up death and destruction to older London families? And why?

 

[Paul Norman]

I don't think so. My family combined lost 3 uncles, one aunt and 2 grandparents. History repeats itself regularly and who is to say we are not witnessing the domination of Europe by a different direction. I've read that Churchill and others were vilified before that conflagration. Are you denying that the first person spoken to in ANY EU problem is NOT the German Chancellor?

The Berlin Wall had nothing to do with Germany's domination of Europe

For me, this brings to an end the conversation. This is a problem. Raking up the events of the past and not being able to move on would prevent peace and cooperation ever happening.

I suspect, however, than almost no one else thinks like this.

 

[Mr D]

I don't think so. My family combined lost 3 uncles, one aunt and 2 grandparents. History repeats itself regularly and who is to say we are not witnessing the domination of Europe by a different direction. I've read that Churchill and others were vilified before that conflagration. Are you denying that the first person spoken to in ANY EU problem is NOT the German Chancellor?

The Berlin Wall had nothing to do with Germany's domination of Europe

You lost family during the war. As did quite a lot of other families.
However blaming people born since the war for actions that other people took decades earlier is silly.

Tell you what, how about you don't blame people who weren't involved for stuff that happened before they were born and we won't blame you for stuff that happened during the war either.

 

[Jeff FV]

The Berlin Wall had nothing to do with Germany's domination of Europe

My point about the Berlin Wall was to illustrate how time moves on. It was something I grew up with, but is already history. We must all move on.

 

[Clodbuster]

You are all missing the point - The EU revolves around what Germany considered acceptable. She has the major say in any comment or decision and we are jumping to her tune. I do not consider that acceptable.
History has a habit of repeating itself over the centuries and why should that change now?

 

[Cobby]

You certainly read that post didn't you. As usual you jump to conclusions.

Looks like we all took the same conclusion from it. :-/

 

[Cobby]

You are all missing the point - The EU revolves around what Germany considered acceptable. She has the major say in any comment or decision and we are jumping to her tune. I do not consider that acceptable.
History has a habit of repeating itself over the centuries and why should that change now?

That's not true, but all the Brexiteers still considered it completely acceptable when they were sure that we'd vote Leave and the next day, Merkel et al would be kicking our door down for a deal despite the EU27.

History can easily repeat itself and what Brexit and the Brexiteers have done is not only bring back the fascists but defend them as well...